4500bht Power Bill ..ouch

[Skylight]

19 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Heat does build up under the roof as the sun gets hotter, e.g. we have concrete roof tiles, under those tiles we put thermal reflective sisalation to reduce the time that it takes for the heat to penetrate the concrete roof tiles, once the heat is in, it's trapped and will work it's way through your ceiling and into your home, unless you put in for example, R38 Stay Cool batts which will keep the trapped heat in the inside of the roof space, and it also stops your air conditioning from escaping through your ceiling and into the inside of your roof space.

 

Putting in vented eaves and vents at the front of the house (gable roof) the heat is push to and sucked out by the whirly birds, this is the way we have set our's up and it works like a wind tunnel, I know that because when I get on the ladder and open the manhole I can feel the hot air being pushed passed my face toward the whirly birds which are at the back of the house.

 

We purchased the thermal reflective insulation from HomePro: http://www.polynum-insulation.com/index.php?goto=bep

 

R38 Stay Cool batts from SCG: https://www.homepro.co.th/p/213896?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItfrk-crd6wIVTx0rCh0rrQ75EAkYBCABEgLZ_vD_BwE

 

Whirly birds can be found at most places: 

I can say that inside the house it can vary between 5-10 degree on really hot days, and for the two winter months here in Issan we are warm from the insulation.

 

Not a cheap exercise but if you want to stay cool and don't like air cons and big electricity bills, this is the way to go.

 

The builder told me it wasn't necessary to do all the above as the house would be cool, I doubted him, put in the sisalation when the tiles were going on, left the whirly birds and stay cool batts out for a year and proved to him how wrong he was, because the house would warm up by 10am and then be hot the rest of the day requiring air cons, but after that year, we put in the whirly birds and R38 batts and it would take till 2pm to get warm (comfortable), still no need for air cons until before bed.

 

 

I didn't know about the R38 insulation before.  I would definitely budget for that.    Upfront cost seems to be an issue with designing cooling building.

 

I have talked to a couple of architects in the West about their passive cooling buildings, the biggest issue is that builders are reluctant to spend the extra cost upfront even though it will payback in a only few years.

 

I'll definitely consider whirly birds.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Skylight said:

I didn't know about the R38 insulation before.  I would definitely budget for that.    Upfront cost seems to be an issue with designing cooling building.

Our house is just over 300 square metres, cost for the R38 insulation was around 60,000 baht, well worth it, without them, house would be hot inside by 10am, now it's hot around 2pm, but comfortable, e.g. no need for an air conditioner unless it's over 40 degree outside, as previously mentioned house is usually up to 10 degree cooler inside. Cost to instal was 3,000 baht as it wasn't in the initial builders quote, 2 men, 2 days work to instal.

 

1 hour ago, Skylight said:

I have talked to a couple of architects in the West about their passive cooling buildings, the biggest issue is that builders are reluctant to spend the extra cost upfront even though it will payback in a only few years.

When we built our house, we purchased all of the materials and told the builder what we wanted and what we expected, he was reluctant to put in the sisalation under the roof tiles, "no need" for sisalation or R38's, suffice to say if I listened to him, we would be living in an oven. Cost for sisalation also around 60,000 baht, cost to instal was included in the builders quote.

 

1 hour ago, Skylight said:

 

I'll definitely consider whirly birds.

You won't be disappointed, however if you don't put in sisalation the heat will penetrate the inside of the roof area and make its way down into your house which will make it uncomfortably hot, but up to you. I have had farangs over who have said that they regret not putting in all of the above, my take on that is would you buy a car here without air conditioning and also not tinting the windows and if the answer is yes, then you might as well get a black car while your at it.

 

The above said, it's all about the budget you have, but then again, if one can't afford the above living in this very hot climate, then they have two options, have air conditioners on all day and pay for it, or have fans running and sweat it out.

 

Good luck

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, Skylight said:

 

Yeah aesthetically it would be a little bit out there but I am sure you got a cool house.  I'll have to think about it for a long while.

 

How is the design treating you.  The house is pretty cool all day?

 

It is far cooler on the third floor than at ground level, this is partly due to the fact that wind speeds are higher with increased height, but the speed of the wind is further increased by the building design. The wind is funnelled by the sloping roof and partial side walls, this  phenomenon is called The Venturi Effect

 

 

When no aircon is being used, the doors in the stairwells are opened to aid with natural cooling, using a principal called Stack Effect Ventilation: having an opening at the top of the building, draws heat up and out like a chimney. The effect is magnified by the higher wind speed on the third floor caused by the The Venturi Effect which creates a partial vacuum in the stairwell. It is like adding an extractor fan to the chimney.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

29 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

It is far cooler on the third floor than at ground level, this is partly due to the fact that wind speeds are higher with increased height, but the speed of the wind is further increased by the building design. The wind is funnelled by the sloping roof and partial side walls, this  phenomenon is called The Venturi Effect

 

 

When no aircon is being used, the doors in the stairwells are opened to aid with natural cooling, using a principal called Stack Effect Ventilation: having an opening at the top of the building, draws heat up and out like a chimney. The effect is magnified by the higher wind speed on the third floor caused by the The Venturi Effect which creates a partial vacuum in the stairwell. It is like adding an extractor fan to the chimney.

 

 

Very smart, using wind seems the best way to do it

[Bandersnatch]

1 minute ago, scubascuba3 said:

Very smart, using wind seems the best way to do it

I combine natural ventilation with lots of insulation: - My walls are made of sandwich  of 2 layers of  Aerated Concrete Blocks, double sided foil insulation, air gap, 3 inches of foam insulation, second air gap, then the second wall. Wrap around porch roof to keep sun off the walls and windows. Small narrow windows positioned high up under the porch roof. All walls painted bright white.
 

[trucking]

14 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

I combine natural ventilation with lots of insulation: - My walls are made of sandwich  of 2 layers of  Aerated Concrete Blocks, double sided foil insulation, air gap, 3 inches of foam insulation, second air gap, then the second wall. Wrap around porch roof to keep sun off the walls and windows. Small narrow windows positioned high up under the porch roof. All walls painted bright white.
 

 

So your walls are about 1 ft thick ?   I guess you have double glazing too ?

[trucking]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:43 AM, owl sees all said:

Ours has been below 1k baht for a while. This month 1,359 baht 57 satang. Gonna get the meter changed.

 

Same here. Cools season less than 1000. Hot season from 1000 - 1500.  Single air con unit in bedroom , on all night at 26 and used a fair bit in the daytime.

[Bandersnatch]

2 minutes ago, trucking said:

 

So your walls are about 1 ft thick ?   I guess you have double glazing too ?

 

I have three zones in the house build:

1) Shaded outside under roof but no walls

2) Buffer zone with no air-con: kitchen, bathrooms, porch, mechanical room - which have normal windows

3) Inner zone with aircon and glass block windows. Ventilation is provided by an energy recovery ventilator

 

 

 

 

 

[trucking]

14 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I have three zones in the house build:

1) Shaded outside under roof but no walls

2) Buffer zone with no air-con: kitchen, bathrooms, porch, mechanical room - which have normal windows

3) Inner zone with aircon and glass block windows. Ventilation is provided by an energy recovery ventilator

 

 

 

 

 

 

Impressive. Well thought out but sadly , beyond a lot of peoples budgets.

 

Must be pretty cool even with the air con off.

[Bandersnatch]

1 minute ago, trucking said:

Impressive. Well thought out but sadly , beyond a lot of peoples budgets.

 

Must be pretty cool even with the air con off.

This indoor/outdoor temperature reading is taken with the air con off:

 

[trucking]

20 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

This indoor/outdoor temperature reading is taken with the air con off:

 

 

20 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

This indoor/outdoor temperature reading is taken with the air con off:

 

 

Very good. Cant match that. Our house is also aerated block with 6 inch insulation on ceiling. House is 1 meter of the ground to get some air circulation. Vented soffits and eves , metal sheet under roof etc.

 

When its 45 outside can only manage 28.9 - 29.5 inside.  

 

That extra 2 degree drop you have made makes all the difference between feeling hot or just comfortable.

 

Another good idea is to try to get your whole house in the shade by surrounding with tall trees. This helps a lot and can gain you a few degrees. Sadly , only managed this on a small section of ours as space is a bit tight.

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, trucking said:

Another good idea is to try to get your whole house in the shade by surrounding with tall trees. This helps a lot and can gain you a few degrees. Sadly , only managed this on a small section of ours as space is a bit tight.

I have solar panels on all four cardinal directions to catch the sun as it moves.

I agree shading helps to cool the house, but I am happy to get this bill from PEA every month

 

[trucking]

14 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

I have solar panels on all four cardinal directions to catch the sun as it moves.

I agree shading helps to cool the house, but I happy to get this bill from PEA every month

 

 

I won't show that to my thrifty mother in law. She thinks she is doing well  at 150 a month.

 

You are lucky she doesn't know where you live otherwise she would go and kill you on principle. Hates being undercut on anything.

 

 

 

 

[scubascuba3]

49 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

I have solar panels on all four cardinal directions to catch the sun as it moves.

I agree shading helps to cool the house, but I am happy to get this bill from PEA every month

 

Very impressive, must be making some guys sick. I'm happy my condo has been 27° most of the day with nice breeze coming through, by the sound of it some houses have brutal heat to contend with

[scammed]

On 9/3/2020 at 11:34 AM, robblok said:

For me 4500 would be a low bill, but i work from home 3 big screens powerful computer ect. Aircon on 24/7, big fridge. 

 

Really depends what appliances you have.

 

I just moved to a new home with even bigger aircons and a pool, thank god the GF her company is paying. So no more electricity (or housing payments) for me. 

the LED screens means nothing at all but that AC does pounding the bill with much the same ferocity as i pound my penis

[CGW]

19 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

by the sound of it some houses have brutal heat to contend with

Indeed! I lived 8 years in Bangkok, 1 year in Samui, then 15 years in Pattaya before moving to the west of Udon Thani 7 years ago, I was "surprised" just how brutal & relentless the summer heat is here, cross breezes and wind cooling are a total fallacy in the summer time, it's AC or perspire, when the ambient temperature is 40°c + opening doors and windows just serves to heat up the house to the same temperature.

Thankfully we do get ~5 months of cool weather.

[johng]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:00 AM, Bandersnatch said:

This indoor/outdoor temperature reading is taken with the air con off:

 

How does the inside temp get down to  26 degrees whilst its 45 degrees outside  without using aircon ?

[ben2talk]

Wow, that's heavy.

We have a Mitsubishi in the main bedroom - it never gets turned off, just toggled; 27 C daytime, 25 for sleeping and 29 when I go out - it takes a load off the living room aircon, and stops the living room heating up when it's hot outside... It never gets past about 28 in there; with a fridge in the hot kitchen extension running, and the Mitsubishi (which is variable power rather than off/on) we're hitting 2400 in the hot season and maybe reaching 3000 using the living room aircon at weekends.

 

From my condo life, I remember bills could shoot up from 1000 past 2500 when the aircon was failing or needing a clean, so I'd have that checked out too.

[sungod]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:15 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

1 AC on in kitchen when cooking 

1 Oven - Wife bakes a lot

 

Never understood why people would heat cool the kitchen down and heat it up at the same time. Lot to be said for outside Thai kitchens.

[Bandersnatch]

33 minutes ago, johng said:

How does the inside temp get down to  26 degrees whilst its 45 degrees outside  without using aircon ?

This only happens in the main bedroom which is the central core of the building. It is like being in an underground cave. You really need to read my whole blog  https://ecohousethailand.com/ to fully understand the degree to which insulation has been designed into the building. The walls are a foot thick, with 3 inches of foam under the floor, in the ceiling and in the walls. There is an aircon unit in the bedroom, but it is the smallest BTU I could find 8,500 BTU

 

[johng]

3 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

You really need to read my whole blog https://ecohousethailand.com/ to fully understand the degree to which insulation have been designed into the building. 

 

Ok lots of  insulation   but how does the room get down to 26 degrees in the first place ?

 

so after looking at your rather impressive (expensive) "eco" house website

 

The answer  ????

Quote

Air-conditioning:

Aircon serves two purposes, firstly to cool and secondly to dehumidify the house. I briefly considered using DC aircon units, but they require dedicated solar panels and dedicated batteries, they are also very expensive to buy in Thailand. So DC aircon for a spare bedroom would have solar panels and batteries that were not being used if the room was empty. I prefer to pool my solar production and storage to use it where it is needed.

The main concern with running aircon off a solar system is how to run aircon at night off batteries. My system utilizes a hybrid inverter so I can always pull from the grid if I need more power. However, I want to design my house to be off grid for normal use.

The choice of aircon units: I chose the smallest BTU units I could find using the smallest number of watts. I chose 8,500 BTU Daikin Super Smile Inverter II it uses 640w in normally running and an “intelligent eye” system which tracks movement and reduces power if the room is unoccupied. 5 units installed was ฿100,000

 

[Bandersnatch]

 

7 minutes ago, johng said:

Ok lots of  insulation   but how does the room get down to 26 degrees in the first place ?

You could also ask how my bedroom is mid 20s°C when it is 14°C outside in the winter. 

 

Try this link https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/83006/why-basements-stay-cold-even-during-summer

[CGW]

50 minutes ago, sungod said:

Never understood why people would heat cool the kitchen down and heat it up at the same time. Lot to be said for outside Thai kitchens.

Let me explain ???? 

We have AC in the kitchen as we do a lot of cooking and preparation, its far more comfortable keeping it at ~28° than the `38°= it would be without running an AC.

A lot can indeed be said for outside kitchens! they are great for cooking stinky food and perspiring freely, I much prefer a cool & comfortable inside kitchen.

[ICELANDMAN]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:46 PM, AlfHuy said:

my airco is always 18-19°

Thyroid problems maybe ?

[ICELANDMAN]

On 9/4/2020 at 6:07 AM, scorecard said:

And the air-conditioners. On the LG remotes there a button labelled 'SAVING'.

 

Turn on, set the temp etc., then press the SAVING button.

 

You'll be pleasantly surprised by the reduction in the monthly bill.

 

Note that you need to go through the steps above every time you turn on, no big deal.

 

Many other brands have a similar button but with a different word.

 

Give it a try, you will be pleasantly surprised with the savings. 

 

Or buy a new conditioner with inverter

[scorecard]

16 minutes ago, ICELANDMAN said:

Or buy a new conditioner with inverter

Ours are all LG inverters, now about 3 years old.

 

When we discovered the SAVINGS button on the remote the monthly bill reduced enormously. 

[scorecard]

On 9/12/2020 at 5:36 PM, ben2talk said:

Wow, that's heavy.

We have a Mitsubishi in the main bedroom - it never gets turned off, just toggled; 27 C daytime, 25 for sleeping and 29 when I go out - it takes a load off the living room aircon, and stops the living room heating up when it's hot outside... It never gets past about 28 in there; with a fridge in the hot kitchen extension running, and the Mitsubishi (which is variable power rather than off/on) we're hitting 2400 in the hot season and maybe reaching 3000 using the living room aircon at weekends.

 

From my condo life, I remember bills could shoot up from 1000 past 2500 when the aircon was failing or needing a clean, so I'd have that checked out too.

Agree, regular professional cleaning does reduce the bill. 

[Seeall]

3 hours ago, ICELANDMAN said:

Or buy a new conditioner with inverter

Ah INVERTER.. a great topic....  most of us read the propaganda and repeat that thinking we know ....

A/C Techs on several occasions have laughed at the situation stating no real savings and parts and repair more expensive....  of course you will find the sales types happy to take your cash

as always.....

[scubascuba3]

17 minutes ago, Seeall said:

Ah INVERTER.. a great topic....  most of us read the propaganda and repeat that thinking we know ....

A/C Techs on several occasions have laughed at the situation stating no real savings and parts and repair more expensive....  of course you will find the sales types happy to take your cash

as always.....

Inverter does seem to be a buzz word currently, everything is inverter, even inverters have inverters. what happened to curved TV screens they seem to have died 

[CGW]

25 minutes ago, Seeall said:

Ah INVERTER.. a great topic....  most of us read the propaganda and repeat that thinking we know ....

A/C Techs on several occasions have laughed at the situation stating no real savings and parts and repair more expensive....  of course you will find the sales types happy to take your cash

as always.....

No more propaganda! here you go - educate yourself  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_inverter

A lot of "Air con techs" don't like Inverter air cons as most don't have the knowledge or training to work on them as they are far more complex than "non" Inverters!