11 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

Herd immunity is a concept that guides vaccine policy to prevent outbreaks, writes

@JamesHamblin

. It is not an approach to ending a global pandemic.

 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/herd-immunity-is-not-a-strategy/615967/?utm_term=2020-09-02T23%3A25%3A26&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_medium=social

Good article.   The money quote:  And by the way, there’s never been a real case of herd immunity through infection.

Everybody is personally responsible if covid spread or not! Im not against mask or hand wash! Im against this insane hysteria about this flue! To me it's even ok if have to wear mask! But every other things should work like normal! Mean situation before covid!

 

Personally, I can't help but think that if we'd just carried on as normal, let people get the virus and allow the population to develop herd immunity, we'd be over it by now, just without the insane economic devastation. Sure, people would have died, but people will die in the next pandemic, and the next one, and the next one....... 

 

Diseases are part of nature. Humans want to be in control of everything. This whole situation has been completely mismanaged from the start. Artificial virus created in China, then WHO which was corrupted by China gives wrong advice to the world on purpose. Now China is flexing its muscles and bullying Hong Kong, India, Taiwan and Australia at the same time, and trying to covertly infiltrate many other countries. Food for thought. Plus western scientists have analysed the genetic material from the virus and have determined that it was artificially produced.   

 

There's something going on here, pretty sure it will become apparent soon. Either that or Nurse Ratched will be round soon with my pills. 

Interesting news from CDC....I think

 

https://www.cbs42.com/news/health/coronavirus/new-cdc-report-shows-94-of-covid-19-deaths-in-us-had-underlying-medical-conditions/

41 minutes ago, Sujo said:

So you think they should take out the safety features in cars?

yes its obvious thats exactly what I meant

An off topic post trying to drag riots in the US into the topic has been removed

The lock downs were a mistake, the rich got richer and the poor poorer. Numerous studies are suggesting they don't work. In fact in the absence of a vaccine no informed person claims they do work, they just spread the virus over a longer period.

 

UN agencies have claimed over a hundred thousand children will die indirectly from the covid responses, add to that suicides, mass impoverishment, people dying as hospitals closed to them and unemployment. We were conned, wake up. Thing is though they can't admit it, or the idiots who called for it would be strung up.

*sigh* - Sweden's strategy was NOT to achieve herd immunity. It was seen as a welcome byproduct or effect of the main strategy, which is and was to flatten the curve, to make sure that the healthcare services were not overwhelmed. Sweden did NOT "let it rip" or allow the virus to flood the country, Sweden did not need to shut down or forbid the citizens from leaving their homes. Swedes are a very compliant people and when the authorities suggested that people should not leave their homes during the first critical period, the Swedes complied. Most people started working from home. The streets were mostly deserted the first months. But it was very popular to share images and clips of people shopping or drinking wine and beer in outside settings. 

1 hour ago, androokery said:

*sigh* - Sweden's strategy was NOT to achieve herd immunity. It was seen as a welcome byproduct or effect of the main strategy, which is and was to flatten the curve, to make sure that the healthcare services were not overwhelmed. Sweden did NOT "let it rip" or allow the virus to flood the country, Sweden did not need to shut down or forbid the citizens from leaving their homes. Swedes are a very compliant people and when the authorities suggested that people should not leave their homes during the first critical period, the Swedes complied. Most people started working from home. The streets were mostly deserted the first months. But it was very popular to share images and clips of people shopping or drinking wine and beer in outside settings. 

Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?  But let's just check the score and see how well Sweden did compared to other countries.  Whoops!  Not so good after all!  Sweden has achieved the eighth worse record in the pandemic as measured by the deaths per million.   Just for reference, S. Korea's deaths per million is 6.31 with a current rates of 2 deaths per day while Norway with a similarly low population density has had 49 deaths per million with zero deaths per day currently.

 

5 hours ago, SteveK said:

If I was in my 70's and someone said look, we can keep you alive for another year, but it'll cause untold misery to millions around the world, I'd say fine. I'm only one person. Let me die. I would consider that to be honourable, now some fool is going to reply to this and say that I'm selfish. I'm not worried about self-preservation and generally go out of my way to help others, so suggesting I jump on a funeral pyre to save one business in a purely hypothetical situation is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Since when is it OK to say "I can't wait to see you jump on a funeral pyre"?

There are already several studies that show most of the people who died from covid would have lived for another 10 years as an average.

7 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Considering the sheer amount of obesity, heart disease, lung issues from smoking, alcohol issues, and other self inflicted issues that the general USA public have deliberately inflicted upon themselves - it could just be nature thinning the herd of stupidity ! !

Good one!!!

7 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Have you thought the action taken so far has limited the number of deaths......Oh!.....but you don't care do you?

That is pure speculation. It could have or it could not have made any real difference.  

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?  But let's just check the score and see how well Sweden did compared to other countries.  Whoops!  Not so good after all!  Sweden has achieved the eighth worse record in the pandemic as measured by the deaths per million.   Just for reference, S. Korea's deaths per million is 6.31 with a current rates of 2 deaths per day while Norway with a similarly low population density has had 49 deaths per million with zero deaths per day currently.

 

Sweden messed up in that the virus got to elderly care homes and the reaper had a field day. What I'd be interested to see is what happened after that initial impact?

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?  But let's just check the score and see how well Sweden did compared to other countries.  Whoops!  Not so good after all!  Sweden has achieved the eighth worse record in the pandemic as measured by the deaths per million.   Just for reference, S. Korea's deaths per million is 6.31 with a current rates of 2 deaths per day while Norway with a similarly low population density has had 49 deaths per million with zero deaths per day currently.

 

What you don't understand, clearly, is that Sweden:

 

A) Has had a miniscule number of deaths, 0.05% of Sweden's population. 

 

B) 96% of those deaths are in the 60-90 plus range who had underlying medical conditions

 

C) To compare the US population with Sweden's population is frankly pointless

 

Sweden is doing great.

 

As for this total nonsense:

 

Quote

recently, there have been more cases of proven re-infection suggesting that whatever immunity may result from infection may be short-lived, which would be consistent with the immunology of other coronaviruses.

 

What you need to understand is that those are exceptions. Immunity is the rule.  Immunity is a fact.

 

You are basically posting a load of nonsense. Get your facts straight.

Number of people under 50 who have died from Covid in Sweden: 75

 

A country that did not lock down, 75 under 50 deaths. Please let that sink in. 

 

Sweden exposed their vulnerable population early on, and have admitted to this blunder.

 

Now we know! Not think, we KNOW. Young people can go about their lives safely, and we do in fact need to do a great job protecting the vulnerable. Once again, reference Sweden's current deaths stats of 1-2 per day for proof this works. 

 

History will prove these decisions to be worse and more ignorant than flat earthers. 

56 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Number of people under 50 who have died from Covid in Sweden: 75

 

A country that did not lock down, 75 under 50 deaths. Please let that sink in. 

 

Sweden exposed their vulnerable population early on, and have admitted to this blunder.

 

Now we know! Not think, we KNOW. Young people can go about their lives safely, and we do in fact need to do a great job protecting the vulnerable. Once again, reference Sweden's current deaths stats of 1-2 per day for proof this works. 

 

History will prove these decisions to be worse and more ignorant than flat earthers. 

Great post, absolutely right. And Sweden was of course also one of the pioneers who showed that opening schools does not lead to Coronapocalypse.

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

A lot of the hysteria fell on the back of the Spanish Flu and SARS-CoV-1 and MERS

 

The Spanish Flu infected about one third of the worlds population at the time, but its an influenza Virus. 

The most recent ’novel corona viruses’ were SARS-CoV-1 and MERS with 10% and 30% case fatality rates. 

 

Modelling an one third infection rate with 10% and 30% fatality rates presented devastating results. 

 

The Worlds Governments were incredibly slow to react given the devastation the models presented.

Lock down was the correct course of action at the time given the knowledge we had. 

 

Fast forwarding a few months it became clear that the models were wrong and the fatality rates and rates of serious cases were no where near as extreme. 

 

Why the world continued to lock down is beyond logic. I suspect admitting an over reaction could be political suicide and those in positions of power do not want to openly admit an over reaction. 

 

It is not about the fatalities. It is about the impact of having  hundreds of thousands of people ill  at the same time. It is about the  impact of the long term damage. Your position assumes that there is little impact if 20-35% of the population is infected at the same time and it assumes that there is no long term physical  damage from the infection.

What do you think happens when 10% of a city's population is ill at the same time? 

 

8 hours ago, SteveK said:

If I was in my 70's and someone said look, we can keep you alive for another year, but it'll cause untold misery to millions around the world, I'd say fine. I'm only one person. Let me die. I would consider that to be honourable, now some fool is going to reply to this and say that I'm selfish. I'm not worried about self-preservation and generally go out of my way to help others, so suggesting I jump on a funeral pyre to save one business in a purely hypothetical situation is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Since when is it OK to say "I can't wait to see you jump on a funeral pyre"?

 

OK, but what does that have to do with a Covid19 infection?  Your scenario is not how it works. people do not just die. They linger and they can develop chronic complications. What do you do with your solitary case  when he is ill? Do you just euthanize or dump in a room and let starve? You assume that there will be people to care for the person. That is not what happens , nor what has happened.

 

We wouldn't have the problems we have now if the bullies had not fought and resisted the basic low cost/low tech  practices available at the start of the  pandemic. Look at the idiots crowding on the beaches, going to raves etc. The cases spike

 

8 hours ago, SteveK said:

Personally, I can't help but think that if we'd just carried on as normal, let people get the virus and allow the population to develop herd immunity, we'd be over it by now, just without the insane economic devastation. Sure, people would have died, but people will die in the next pandemic, and the next one, and the next one....... 

 

Diseases are part of nature. Humans want to be in control of everything. This whole situation has been completely mismanaged from the start. Artificial virus created in China, then WHO which was corrupted by China gives wrong advice to the world on purpose. Now China is flexing its muscles and bullying Hong Kong, India, Taiwan and Australia at the same time, and trying to covertly infiltrate many other countries. Food for thought. Plus western scientists have analysed the genetic material from the virus and have determined that it was artificially produced.   

 

There's something going on here, pretty sure it will become apparent soon. Either that or Nurse Ratched will be round soon with my pills. 

 

You have assumed that there is herd immunity. There is no evidence to support your position. You also do not understand that while one may survive a Covid19 infection or may not show significant symptoms,  this does not mean the patient is in the clear. The patient can develop  knock on physical damage that will only become apparent years later. This is nothing new and we have seen it with other infectious disease. 

 

There is an assumption that once one is ill, it is over and done with.  People made the same assumption with Syphilis: The initial manifestation went away, but the disease remained only to reappear years later. We see it with Herpes Zoster. A person gets through chicken pox, but decades later has a more difficult and painful Shingles event. We see it with the HPV virus. Men and women clear their warts only to be hit with oral or genital cancers years later.

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

What you don't understand, clearly, is that Sweden:

 

A) Has had a miniscule number of deaths, 0.05% of Sweden's population. 

 

B) 96% of those deaths are in the 60-90 plus range who had underlying medical conditions

 

C) To compare the US population with Sweden's population is frankly pointless

 

Sweden is doing great.

 

As for this total nonsense:

 

 

What you need to understand is that those are exceptions. Immunity is the rule.  Immunity is a fact.

 

You are basically posting a load of nonsense. Get your facts straight.

What you need to do is stop complaining and just wear a mask to protect others from your fake news.

20 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

We see it with the HPV virus. Men and women clear their warts only to be hit with oral or genital cancers years later.

BS. The strains which cause warts are different ones from the ones causing cancers. Most often the former get cleared by the immune system (the disease itself, not just the warts).

"What do you think happens when 10% of a city's population is ill at the same time?" 
 

Nothing. For the majority of the people who do get ill from Covid (have symptoms), there is literally nothing that needs to be done medically. There are only a very small percentage of cases which are critical and require hospitalization. So an overrun of the medical facilities is unlikely with some organization.

I agree with Dr. Scott Atlas.  We should have herd immunity.

50 minutes ago, Seik said:

BS. The strains which cause warts are different ones from the ones causing cancers. Most often the former get cleared by the immune system (the disease itself, not just the warts).

"What do you think happens when 10% of a city's population is ill at the same time?" 
 

Nothing. For the majority of the people who do get ill from Covid (have symptoms), there is literally nothing that needs to be done medically. There are only a very small percentage of cases which are critical and require hospitalization. So an overrun of the medical facilities is unlikely with some organization.

So you have a disease which is 3X more infectious as flu raging through a population unchecked.   That's a lot of people sick and a lot of people who can't go to work or if they do, they will be infecting others.   You might want to take a look at how much time it takes to get over Covid and how much it cost to treat those that get sick.   

Oh, and then how long does immunity last for.   We are seeing early cases starting to get reinfected.   

 

9 hours ago, LomSak27 said:

 

Holy brain aneurysm, Batman. You would make that great sacrifice for all of us, for humanity,  if IF IF IF IF only .... oh wait you won't, you can't, but if you could .... blah blah blah. Do really expect anyone to believe a whopper like that.   

I believe it. Millions died fighting and dieing for the next generation in world wars.

3 hours ago, Seik said:

BS. The strains which cause warts are different ones from the ones causing cancers. Most often the former get cleared by the immune system (the disease itself, not just the warts).

"What do you think happens when 10% of a city's population is ill at the same time?" 
 

Nothing. For the majority of the people who do get ill from Covid (have symptoms), there is literally nothing that needs to be done medically. There are only a very small percentage of cases which are critical and require hospitalization. So an overrun of the medical facilities is unlikely with some organization.

My apologies for not providing a more detailed and specific explanation.

 

- Yes, indeed the types of HPV that cause warts are different from the types that cause cancer.

However, your position ignores the common knowledge that prolonged HPV infection increases the risk of developing malignant transformation.  Your view would mean that the virus remains unchanged. However, we know that the virus that  results in condyloma acuminata can change/mutate to become oncogenic. This is nothing unique either. Viruses are constantly changing. The initial  manifestation of the wart can visibly clear, but the virus itself can remain and transform over time.  The point being that a person can be infected with  anogenital warts, see them clear, and then  find out he/she has  a deadly cancer.

 

 Need a cititation? Try this;  Costa-Silva M, Fernandes I, Rodrigues AG, Lisboa C. Anogenital warts in pediatric population. An Bras Dermatol. 2017 Sep-Oct;92(5):675-681.

 

- We also know that patients infected with strains 6 and 11, the variants most likely to result in a display of condyloma acuminata,  are also most  likely to be at risk of a  more deadly oncogenic strain of HPV.  It is the same principle that people  with chlamydia will most likely have a concommitant STI. It doesn't mean that everyone will have that condition, nor does it mean that everyone with genital warts is going to  develop cancer, but it is significant enough relationship to warrant a specific treatment approach to screen for the cancer.   

 

 Need more citations?

 

Nordenvall C, Chang ET, Adami H-O, Weimin Y. Cancer risk among patients with condylomata acuminata. Int J Cancer 2006; 119(4): 888–893. doi: 10.1002/ijc.21892 [PubMed] [Google Scholar]

 

Friis S, Kjaer SK, Frisch M, Mellemkjar L, Olsen JH. Cervical intraepithelial neoplasia, anogenital cancer, and other cancer types in women after hospitalization for condylomata acuminata. J Infect Dis 1997; 175(4): 743–748.

 

I trust this addresses your concern and thank you for the opportunity to discuss the issue further.

 

 

In respect to your claim that nothing happens when a large part of the population becomes ill, I draw your attention to the fact that  10-20% of the infected will require  hospitalization. Also, the infected people, as diagnosed as such, will need to self isolate.

Did you not see what happened at the food production facilities when the workers became ill? There were food shortages and disruptions of  supply chains in many countries.  What do you think happens if the income earner in a family becomes ill and must take time off to recover? Your position requires that none of the infected   have  physical conditions that interfere with their  activities. As we saw in many countries, hospitals came close to collapse  as medical service providers died or became ill. There is a backlog of healthcare now because  health providers will not  provide many types of services because of the risk.

You  dismiss the reality with the  flip of the wrist saying it can be   solved by 'organization".  That's not how it works in the real world.  In  your perfect world we would not have super spreaders or people intentionally infecting others, and we would have people  being respectful of others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, SteveK said:

Take a look at the stats of who died. If you want to stop deaths then stop people driving in Thailand, stop people smoking, stop people using drugs - you'd save a lot more lives and wouldn't implode the economy.

 

Most people who died from covid-19 were either elderly or unwell. Yes, it's still a death, but giving some old codger an extra year is not worth destroying the world economy, people's careers businesses and livelihoods. Oh!.....but you don't care do you?   

 

Some people have worked all their life to build up a business to put food on the table for their family. Now that's all been wiped out to keep a few geriatrics who can't even wipe their own ass alive for a bit longer,

Disgusting comment

11 hours ago, 2 is 1 said:

Everybody is personally responsible if covid spread or not! Im not against mask or hand wash! Im against this insane hysteria about this flue! To me it's even ok if have to wear mask! But every other things should work like normal! Mean situation before covid!

 

When will you understand it is not a flu! We have vaccine for the flu, but not for covid-19

and we don't have chimneys.

8 hours ago, Swimfan said:

There are already several studies that show most of the people who died from covid would have lived for another 10 years as an average.

its hard to say which one is worse,

another 10 years when you are already 70, or die in suffocation.

i hope governments around the world take notice and make available the peaceful pill when all we got is

bad options

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

It is not about the fatalities. It is about the impact of having  hundreds of thousands of people ill  at the same time.

That old chestnut is getting boring now.

 

Five UK Nightingale hospitals fitted out at great expense to the UK taxpayer then mothballed within two months due to complete and utter lack of demand.   

3 hours ago, Nout said:

I believe it. Millions died fighting and dieing for the next generation in world wars.

No,they didn't. They served as cannon fodder to sort out a family feud.  

Sweden doesn't seem to have an abnormal amount of deaths so far this year compared to previous years.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/

 

You also have to remember when comparing the numbers that their population has increased by one million in just 10 years, which is quite a lot for a country of roughly 10 million.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/521464/sweden-total-population/

5 hours ago, johnray said:

I agree with Dr. Scott Atlas.  We should have herd immunity.

Makes sense to me.  Either some number dies quickly, or you extend that same number out for years under an economic shutdown.  The vaccine?  I expect the vaccine to be about as effective as the current Flu vaccine, which most take every year and contract the flu every year.  LOL