Earthing system in Thailand

[Kenny202]

Getting a lot of noise through my music equipment. I believe they call it ground hum. Normally using a three pin plug should fix it (I believe) but not seeming to make any difference. What is the standard earthing system here? Is it MEN same as we have in Australia? I did read somewhere homes here don't always have earth rods. There are RCD circuit breakers in the house which I assume would need to be hooked up to a main earth? Not that I have ever seen one trip. I wouldn't even be surprised if the cheapskates who wired the house points used 2 core instead of 2 c&e to save money. I am in a more modern estate but that's not saying a lot. We were getting shocks off metal appliances at my last place and when I went outside to check there was nothing connected to the earth rod and all the earthwires in the CB box seemed to be twisted together but not going anywhere.

 

Any advice appreciated

[sometimewoodworker]

Step 1.

 

Take one of the 3 pin sockets of the wall and check.

 

A lot of Thailand is TT-C-S this requires a ground rod.

 

You can check by looking at the PEA poles and see if about 1 in 3 has an earth.

[fishtank]

Thai electric is different.

No earth needed. 

[RichCor]

10 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

There are RCD circuit breakers in the house which I assume would need to be hooked up to a main earth?

RCD (Residual Current Device) is designed to measure an imbalance between the L and N connections and doesn't require a local earth-ground to function.

[Kenny202]

5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Step 1.

 

Take one of the 3 pin sockets of the wall and check.

 

A lot of Thailand is TT-C-S this requires a ground rod.

 

You can check by looking at the PEA poles and see if about 1 in 3 has an earth.

I should mention I am an electrician lol, or was 35 years ago. Basically came out of my apprenticeship and did something else. Taking a GPO off the wall to see if there is an earth connected doesn't really say much. Like I said in my opening post I seen 2 houses here where earth wires were ran to outlets etc but only twisted together at the board and not connected to anything externally. Twisted together not soldered or in a connector or anything. Have seen lights connected here the same way!

 

So you are saying there is normally no earth rod in the home itself? Do they run an earth wire from the home to outside to the pole? Sorry if I am a bit hazy. We use an MEN system back home and the house is grounded by a copper stake usually under the main meter board on the house

[sometimewoodworker]

19 minutes ago, RichCor said:

RCD (Residual Current Device) is designed to measure an imbalance between the L and N connections and doesn't require a local earth-ground to function.

That depends on the type of RCD that you have and the equipment in your house. If you have a lot/few LEDs then a type a/c may not function you will probably need a type A, as the D.C. from the PSUs can stop an a/c RCD working

 

15 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

So you are saying there is normally no earth rod in the home itself?

It depends on the supply type TT-C-S with MEN requires an earth rod.

 

But correct grounding is not a simple subject. It becomes even more complex if you want to drive an EV or hybrid vehicle.

 

Quote

Have seen lights connected here the same way! 

wire twisted and taped is the most common junction here, mine have wire nuts as well.

Edited September 29, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[Kenny202]

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

wire twisted and taped is the most common junction here, mine have wire nuts as well.

It surprises me there are not more fires here. I live in a big city and don't remember seeing a fire or even a fire truck going to a fire. I lived in a village, 90% wooden shacks. They would join 6 pieces of figure 8 speaker wire, often different sizes to cover 4 meters to a light or power outlet. At night many of them used these bare flame lamps that would sit on the floor, or candles. Like a tin can with a wick not sure if kero or petrol. Never saw one fire there in two years. In many case in the village center if one house went up the lot probably would have gone

Edited September 29, 2020 by Kenny202

[Crossy]

As noted earlier, Thailand should be TN-C-S with MEN and a local rod the same as Aus, but this is a relatively new requirement.

 

Many homes are TT (with or without a rod) and there are a few that appear to be IT.

 

If your hum persists after verifying that there really is a rod and your outlet ground is connected to it I'd be tempted to bang in a separate rod for the AV kit and isolate it from the house "earth".

 

It's also worth verifying the polarity at the outlet, it shouldn't matter but it's amazing how often it does. Also, if your kit is on a 2-pin plug try reversing the plug.

 

 

[bodga]

7 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

mine have wire nuts as well.

and ive  found over time the wire  nut  plastic  disintegrates

[Kenny202]

Problem solved. Changed the polarity around. Maybe a slight difference but still buzzy. Moved the guitar around, tried a few other guitars and leads no difference. Tried a three pin jug cord in the amp. Then I realized the 4 outlet extension board I am plugging into has a two pin plug on it lol. Took the amp straight to the outlet 3 pin jug cord and good as gold. Need to get me some 3 pin plugs ????

 

Funny because I read on a few sites last night mains earthing makes no difference to guitar hum. It's a grounding issue inside the electronics.

 

Thanks all for your help

[maxpower]

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That depends on the type of RCD that you have and the equipment in your house. If you have a lot/few LEDs then a type a/c may not function you will probably need a type A, as the D.C. from the PSUs can stop an a/c RCD working

But RichCor's statement (post #4) remains valid no matter what RCD type is employed.

[sometimewoodworker]

35 minutes ago, maxpower said:

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That depends on the type of RCD that you have and the equipment in your house. If you have a lot/few LEDs then a type a/c may not function you will probably need a type A, as the D.C. from the PSUs can stop an a/c RCD working

But RichCor's statement (post #4) remains valid no matter what RCD type is employed.

In as far as it goes I agree, it is too limited.
 

If you fit the wrong type then it will be more dangerous than not fitting one at all. Because you will be confident that you have RCD protection when you don’t because your equipment is causing it to not function and there will be no way that you will be able to know.

 

 

 

 

 

[maxpower]

11 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

In as far as it goes I agree, it is too limited.
 

If you fit the wrong type then it will be more dangerous than not fitting one at all. Because you will be confident that you have RCD protection when you don’t because your equipment is causing it to not function and there will be no way that you will be able to know.

 

 

 

 

 

The problems with DC causing offset at RCD coils has been around forever but recently someone hit the regulation panic button and caused a whole bunch of confusion. This has not been helped by sellers of electrical components jumping on the Tube with dramatic test scenes.

A bunch of LED drivers on a circuit does not mean your RCD is saturated with a DC current. Tests will not always reveal how much of a problem you might have under different load conditions.

 

The only way to solve this is for everyone to fit a one size fits all solution and take away the guesswork of “have I got the correct RCD fitted”

[sometimewoodworker]

12 minutes ago, maxpower said:

The only way to solve this is for everyone to fit a one size fits all solution and take away the guesswork of “have I got the correct RCD fitted”

Which is the correct type?
 

Type AC (inexpensive)

Type A (not so cheap)

Type B (quite a bit more expensive)

Type F (rather ridiculously priced if you don’t need it)

[maxpower]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Which is the correct type?
 

Type AC (inexpensive)

Type A (not so cheap)

Type B (quite a bit more expensive)

Type F (rather ridiculously priced if you don’t need it)

For home use I would say type A will become the standard when the price feast is over. 

[sometimewoodworker]

7 minutes ago, maxpower said:

For home use I would say type A will become the standard when the price feast is over. 

Quite likely, as the proposed next revision of the U.K. guidelines is both going to ban type AC RCBOs and slightly off topic will require Ufer grounding in new builds.  
 

However even those may not be the most suitable.

[Kenny202]

On another note what is the go with these 2 pin plugs with the metal earth strip? I have quite a few of these plugs on appliances I have bought here and I have never seen an outlet or power board that had that style of earth connection to make the bond? They must suit other countries outlets?

 

I have travelled most of the world and never seen better electrical designed plug and socket connections than Australia. The rest are just badly designed and looks to me like they are built to cause fault 

[tifino]

2 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

On another note what is the go with these 2 pin plugs with the metal earth strip? I have quite a few of these plugs on appliances I have bought here and I have never seen an outlet or power board that had that style of earth connection to make the bond? They must suit other countries outlets?

 

I have travelled most of the world and never seen better electrical designed plug and socket connections than Australia. The rest are just badly designed and looks to me like they are built to cause fault 

plenty of online info about this... 

https://www.toughleads.co.uk/pages/european-sockets 

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

23 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

what is the go with these 2 pin plugs with the metal earth strip?

Commonly called a Shuko plug.  Need a Shuko receptacle or adapter to western style like this:

https://www.lazada.co.th/-i261440047-s402335233.html?urlFlag=true&mp=1

[RichCor]

Just to remind folks a similar topic was covered in 2016 and it has some suggestion

 

Vacuum tube (Valve) Amplifier Hum - opinions please
By Tapster, December 14, 2016 in The Electrical Forum

 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

On another note what is the go with these 2 pin plugs with the metal earth strip? I have quite a few of these plugs on appliances I have bought here and I have never seen an outlet or power board that had that style of earth connection to make the bond?

For your information ???? 

[Kenny202]

On 9/30/2020 at 2:01 PM, bankruatsteve said:

Commonly called a Shuko plug.  Need a Shuko receptacle or adapter to western style like this:

https://www.lazada.co.th/-i261440047-s402335233.html?urlFlag=true&mp=1

I only noticed today I would have at least 5 appliances here that have that Shuko plug, and 2 of them steel framed. My house certainly doesn't have Shuko outlets nor has any other home I've been in. Major brand name stuff too so effectively no earth. How do they get away with it?

 

Another thing I find too is where they have the insulation down the pins on many appliance plugs. Obviously safety precaution so you can't partially remove the plug and get a finger on the prongs. problem with those is though they sometimes make a very bad connection particularly on power boards causing arcing and hot joint which can melt the plastic around the socket. The two round pin plugs are rubbish too always seem to want to fall out of the wall and never seem to lock into the socket well.

 

Give me a good old Aussie 3 pin plug and socket any day.

[Crossy]

7 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

The two round pin plugs are rubbish too always seem to want to fall out of the wall and never seem to lock into the socket well.

 

Those are Euro plugs, they also fit in the Schuko outlets (and don't waggle about). 

 

Plug and outlet standardisation is a nightmare here, there is actually a Thai standard plug (TIS166-2549 - it has 3 round pins and fits the normal NEMA 5-15R outlets), the legislation to make it mandatory was put in place in 2008, but put on hold under pressure from manufacturers. At least new appliances are starting to come with them fitted.

 

It looks like this.

 

 

Image taken from this very informative page https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Thai_3polePlugs.html

 

[talahtnut]

Dicovered in the house.

Thai genius wiring, or Damian Hirst masterpiece? Now looking for a single pin plug.

[JusticeGB]

I asked my electrician to put in an earth rod he came back with a 50mm diameter rod 1m long. The water table at my house is 2m lower than the house. I told him to get a 1.5cm rod 3m long so it would definitely get into the water table. All my 3 pin plugs fitted when I was in England only had live and neutral cables. I had to rewire all the plugs with an earth wire. The builder said I had asked for 3 pin plugs not for 3 pin wiring. TIT.

[Kenny202]

21 minutes ago, JusticeGB said:

I asked my electrician to put in an earth rod he came back with a 50mm diameter rod 1m long. The water table at my house is 2m lower than the house. I told him to get a 1.5cm rod 3m long so it would definitely get into the water table. All my 3 pin plugs fitted when I was in England only had live and neutral cables. I had to rewire all the plugs with an earth wire. The builder said I had asked for 3 pin plugs not for 3 pin wiring. TIT.

You don't need to go into the water table mate and certainly don't need a 50mm diam rod. Ridiculous. Normally copper clad about 12mm diameter and a meter should be enough. You just want to go into moist ground and most areas should find this about 300mm under the surface. If it gets very dry in the dry season can always seap your hose water in there for an hour. I don't even know how you would hammer a 3m x 50mm rod in.

 

Don't think too mutt darrrrring

[johng]

Does anyone know why  extension leads with these "universal" sockets have disappeared from all the shops

found a few online  and Haco still make stand alone boxes.

 

[Kenny202]

14 minutes ago, johng said:

Does anyone know why  extension leads with these "universal" sockets have disappeared from all the shops

found a few online  and Haco still make stand alone boxes.

 

You mean that specific brand or ones with universal sockets generally? I bought some with uni sockets only a week ago. Usually everywhere. Try one of the local electric wholesale shops....shops that sell to electricians. Maybe supply chain slow because of covid or maybe they have just backed off on their stock, as many sellers seem to have done

[johng]

15 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

You mean that specific brand or ones with universal sockets generally?

I mean universal sockets generally...they have simply disappeared from  all the retail shops at least they have in my area (Pattaya/Jomtien) even before the Covidiocy started  non in Home Pro,Hardware house,Thai Watsadu,Power Buy,Amorn,Tukcom,Big C,Tesco,7/11  even at a specialist electronics shop all gone !

[Kenny202]

7 minutes ago, johng said:

I mean universal sockets generally...they have simply disappeared from  all the retail shops at least they have in my area (Pattaya/Jomtien) even before the Covidiocy started  non in Home Pro,Hardware house,Thai Watsadu,Power Buy,Amorn,Tukcom,Big C,Tesco,7/11  even at a specialist electronics shop all gone !

Ahhh I haven't found that. I saw some in Tesco and DIY just a couple of days ago. Best try the specialist mom and pop electrical shops mate. They are cheaper and generally better quality