EU, UK to step up Brexit talks to try to close 'significant gaps' over trade deal

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Phulublub said:

 

 

If you (or anyone) did not consider the economic consequences, potentially with higher unemployment, higer prices, more difficult travel and a host of other possible downsides, then do you now?  Would you ever?  Or is any cost worth paying to leave the EU?

 

PH

Another one with  crystal ball in front of him/her....."Or is any cost worth paying to leave EU" err actually YES .......we voted out we want out

[Phulublub]

2 minutes ago, petermik said:

Another one with  crystal ball in front of him/her....."Or is any cost worth paying to leave EU" err actually YES .......we voted out we want out

You do not understand the word "potentially" then?

 

But at least you kow that any cost is worth paying.  I wonder how many of your fellow Brexiteers think the same.  Certainly one leader of the Brexit Campaign - who within days of the vote set up financial instruments in the EU rather than London - does not share that view when it comes to his business and personal financial wellbeing.  

 

PH

[nauseus]

23 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

According to the results, she could have easily lost.

There would than have being the need to present another candidate.

Who again could win or lose, and so on, till a majority is obtained.

Once again the majority she obtained is a poor one, but enough according to the democratic rules.

 

 

A bit like the UK referendum then? But we had two choices. Thanks.

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

You do not understand the word "potentially" then?

 

But at least you kow that any cost is worth paying.  I wonder how many of your fellow Brexiteers think the same.  Certainly one leader of the Brexit Campaign - who within days of the vote set up financial instruments in the EU rather than London - does not share that view when it comes to his business and personal financial wellbeing.  

 

PH

Who was that? What instruments? 

[Rookiescot]

54 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Your hate is warping your claims, forecasts and hopes.

I dont hate anyone.

[luckyluke]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

A bit like the UK referendum then? But we had two choices. Thanks.

It seems the rule  is : only 1 candidate at the time.

But there is clearly a choice :

One vote yes or no for the candidate presented.

It is not like some pretend =

 here is our choice and that's it for 5 years, no voting needed.

 

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

I presume you are referring to the Scottish independence movement.

 

That is a totally different matter, nothing to do with the topic, and one on which I am anyway somewhat ambivalent!

Unless I am mistaken "brexit" appears in the title of this topic.

Sooner or later, brexit will result in a reunified Ireland and an independent Scotland. The will of the devolved nations will prevail in the long run, since brexit even the Welsh have had a debate on independence.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I am a bit confused with your use of the word "we".

 

Which "we" are you talking about?

 

I am nothing to do with your "we" as I managed to make my own mind up in time for the referendum without your help or that of Rookiescot or any of the Remainers.

 

I decided to vote leave at the referendum, and even the General Election didn't change my vote. 

 

I expect that you, Rookiescot et did the same as me but voted to remain. Good for you.

 

Nothing changed your vote from Remain to Leave, so why are you all banging on trying to get the referendum and the election vote changed.

 

You had at last 2 opportunities to win as did the Leavers. They won both votes and the Remainers lost both times. So why do you want the free votes of the UK voters replaced so that you won?

There was only one vote on the EU, and "leave at any cost" was not on the ballot paper, but that is what it has turned into.

Bojo and the hard brexiteers are not interested in the cost of living or people's welfare, they got what they wanted.

Bojo is just treading water till the no deal outcome, as dictated by the unelected special adviser.

 

The EU has lashed out at Boris Johnson for failing to engage in the Brexit talks, telling him: “Time for the UK to put its cards on the table”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-boris-johnson-charles-michel-b864280.html?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=INDNEWS%2308102020&utm_term=IND_Headlines_Masterlist_CDP

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Absolute nonsense.

The unionists are now a minority in Scotland. Polls show 55% in favour of independence and only 45% want to remain in the union.

The Orkney and Shetland islands want to explore more autonomy NOT independence. And even if, by some miracle, they decided to go independent or remain in the UK they would be an enclave. Entitled to fish and oil within 6 miles of their coastline and thats it. Just as the Isle Of Man is entitled to the same 6 miles. 

At no time has there been popular support for independence on the islands and there is still not.

But you knew this stuff already because this must be the 5th or 6th time it has been explained to you.

Next week you will post the same garbage. Hoping that if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth.

Exactly the same with your lies about the Scots hating the English.

If everyone in Scotland voted for independence, the same garbage would continue to come forth.

Those that think they have a right to dictate the future of others will never see it any different.

[RayC]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

And there we have the problem of how the EU works, one rogue nation dictates to the other 26 nations.

So France alone dictates EU policy?

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

If everyone in Scotland voted for independence, the same garbage would continue to come forth.

Those that think they have a right to dictate the future of others will never see it any different.

Ultimately what English Brexiteers think is asinine. They will not get a vote in any Scottish independence referendum.

Nothing like English nationalists telling Scots what they should do or think is more conducive to bolstering the ranks of independence supporters.  

[CG1 Blue]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

That is simply not correct, I'm sure Boris would like to do a deal, but not at any price. Mr Macron is refusing to budge, he still wants the same fishing rights as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of other nations in the EU) as that would seem to the French as capitulating to their old enemy. 

Surely anyone can see that it is Macron that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the UK.

Whether Mrs Merkel will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

Yep, Macron is probably petrified of being lynched by the French fishermen.  He's already got the yellow vests baying for his blood. 

Macron trying to save his own skin could well force a no deal. 

[Loiner]

2 hours ago, Phulublub said:

 

If you (or anyone) did not consider the economic consequences, potentially with higher unemployment, higer prices, more difficult travel and a host of other possible downsides, then do you now?  Would you ever?  Or is any cost worth paying to leave the EU?

We were all subjected to a massive propaganda assault prior to the referendum. It came with a £9 million leaflet from David Cameron forecasting promising and threatening Armageddon if we voted to Leave. The government, BBC & news MSM, EU themselves, the quangos, pseudo and wannabe economists, academia, big business interests, public sector lefties, assorted B-list celebrities, and anybody else with a vested interest in their own personal European links, they all 'told' us. They all embraced the Remain mantra and proclaimed what they imagined the host of possible consequences possible downsides and possible possibilities that a Leave vote conceivably might could or maybe bring.

 

Remainers simply bought into it and kept regurgitating it, on and on and on... even to the present day. Leavers considered it carefully and compared it to their knowledge and experience of the EU over the past 40 years, but contrary to the attempted mass brainwashing still deciding it was and still is a cost worth paying to Leave the EU.

[Rimmer]

A post with altered quote has been removed

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Nowhere in my post you refer to do I say we should replace the vtes so I won.  I am asking the Leavers what is was they voted for to try and help my understnding of their thought processes and what the hoped to get (other than "out" which is as meaningless as "Brexit means Brexit").    It would aid my understanding also if Leavers would be willing to openly share what downsides they thought possoble and acceptable, and whether, four years on, they think they will get some, all or none (part from leaving) of what they wanted.

 

If you (or anyone) did not consider the economic consequences, potentially with higher unemployment, higer prices, more difficult travel and a host of other possible downsides, then do you now?  Would you ever?  Or is any cost worth paying to leave the EU?

 

PH

The Cameron/Osborne machine pedalled all this cr@p before the referendum, and remainers continued it all the way up to when we left the EU in Jan 2020. 

 

I don't really understand what you're looking to achieve by asking these outdated (and now irrelevant) questions. Please explain. 

 

[Rookiescot]

25 minutes ago, Loiner said:

We were all subjected to a massive propaganda assault prior to the referendum. It came with a £9 million leaflet from David Cameron forecasting promising and threatening Armageddon if we voted to Leave. The government, BBC & news MSM, EU themselves, the quangos, pseudo and wannabe economists, academia, big business interests, public sector lefties, assorted B-list celebrities, and anybody else with a vested interest in their own personal European links, they all 'told' us. They all embraced the Remain mantra and proclaimed what they imagined the host of possible consequences possible downsides and possible possibilities that a Leave vote conceivably might could or maybe bring.

 

Remainers simply bought into it and kept regurgitating it, on and on and on... even to the present day. Leavers considered it carefully and compared it to their knowledge and experience of the EU over the past 40 years, but contrary to the attempted mass brainwashing still deciding it was and still is a cost worth paying to Leave the EU.

We will find out in January which side was telling the truth and which side was not.

[RayC]

9 hours ago, vogie said:

 

 

9 hours ago, vogie said:

That is simply not correct, I'm sure Boris would like to do a deal, but not at any price. Mr Macron is refusing to budge, he still wants the same fishing rights as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of other nations in the EU) as that would seem to the French as capitulating to their old enemy. 

Surely anyone can see that it is Macron that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the UK.

Whether Mrs Merkel will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

I will take the liberty of using your text, but changing some words in certain places (shown in CAPS). I'd suggest that this is closer to the truth.

---------------

Mr JOHNSON is refusing to budge, he still wants the same ACCESS TO THE SINGLE MARKET as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of MODERATES IN THE TORY PARTY) as that would seem to the ERG as capitulating to their old enemy (THE EU). 

 

Surely anyone can see that it is JOHNSON that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the EU?

 

Whether THE 1922 COMMITTEE will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I will take the liberty of using your text, but changing some words in certain places (shown in CAPS). I'd suggest that this is closer to the truth.

---------------

Mr JOHNSON is refusing to budge, he still wants the same ACCESS TO THE SINGLE MARKET as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of MODERATES IN THE TORY PARTY) as that would seem to the ERG as capitulating to their old enemy (THE EU). 

 

Surely anyone can see that it is JOHNSON that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the EU?

 

Whether THE 1922 COMMITTEE will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

Since the right wing coup in the Conservative party there are only a handful of "moderates" still there.

Its getting so bad even an ex supreme court judge is warning the country is descending into dictatorship.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/oct/07/brexit-strategy-puts-uk-on-slippery-slope-to-tyranny-lawyers-told

 

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

So France alone dictates EU policy?

with a little help from the germans.

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

So France alone dictates EU policy?

with a little help from the germans.

[Loiner]

53 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

We will find out in January which side was telling the truth and which side was not.

We found out over 4 years ago in June 2016 that most of George Osborne's predictions after a Leave vote were wrong. 

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, Loiner said:

We found out over 4 years ago in June 2016 that most of George Osborne's predictions after a Leave vote were wrong. 

Loiner essentially we have not left yet. That comes in January. 

[RayC]

44 minutes ago, kingdong said:

with a little help from the germans.

Saying it twice doesn't make it any truer!

[Loiner]

27 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Loiner essentially we have not left yet. That comes in January. 

His version of Project Fear was based on a referendum Leave vote. He got that so wrong.
We left last January. Most of them are still wrong.

We are almost at next January and there are still not many of his predictions looking likely due to Brexit. Maybe you could negotiate another extension on Project Fear?

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Nowhere in my post you refer to do I say we should replace the vtes so I won.  I am asking the Leavers what is was they voted for to try and help my understnding of their thought processes and what the hoped to get (other than "out" which is as meaningless as "Brexit means Brexit").    It would aid my understanding also if Leavers would be willing to openly share what downsides they thought possoble and acceptable, and whether, four years on, they think they will get some, all or none (part from leaving) of what they wanted.

 

If you (or anyone) did not consider the economic consequences, potentially with higher unemployment, higer prices, more difficult travel and a host of other possible downsides, then do you now?  Would you ever?  Or is any cost worth paying to leave the EU?

 

PH

It really doesn't matter if you understand it or not, A referendum was taken and the majority of those who voted, voted to leave by more than a million votes. The people who did not vote (some 13+milion) made their vote null and void.

 

The referendum itself was badly written by David Cameron and his advisors and instead of a simple majority there should have been a minimum pass level of perhaps 60% or whatever figure seems apt.

 

IMHO DC was overconfident, lazy and slapdash over the referendum and again, IMHO he did the right thing by resigning, but for the wrong reasons.

 

However a majority of the Brits accepted the results and got on with their lives. Many however didn't, and there are a few of them on this forum.

 

DC resigned and Theresa May became PM and spent the next several years undermining the result though she promised to honour it. Along came 2019 and another General Election which Boris won as he promised that the UK WOULD leave the EU with or without a deal, which so far he has honoured that.

 

What the UK wanted was a level playing field and honest discussion and fair agreements with the EU. Not much sign of that from the EU so far. Perhaps they believed that Boris came from the same mould as DC and TM and could be walked over and ignored.

 

That hasn't happened and now both sides are getting towards the headless chicken mode.

 

My best guess is that it will go down to the last few days and some sort of fudge will hopefully be cobbled together, with perhaps a months extension and that will be it.

 

The Remainers can try for another referendum, but not until this one is completed and I expect that will be kicked down the road for a few years before something happens.

 

IF it happens then I truly hope that the referendum rules will be tightened and at least a 60% pass/fail clause is written in.

[david555]

It seems normal to be asked by brexiteers at remainers to accept the fact U.K. left the E.U.....! Which indeed it is ....

 

But strange enough in opposite it seems normal brexiteers still think kicking the can further on the road for 4 years + go result in giving in by the EU. on their dear brexit wishes ....the so called "go flat belly last moment as E.U. alway's do (??...) " ???? now by reading some mentioned  extension by 1 month if needed...do brexiteers finally became so desperate ...? ????...must be .

 

No...! wont happen as already all the lost 4 years times E.U. was consistent in that ...i think brexiteers go realize that at last  1 minute after midnight 31 December coming ..

 

Better late than never ????

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by david555

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

His version of Project Fear was based on a referendum Leave vote. He got that so wrong.
We left last January. Most of them are still wrong.

We are almost at next January and there are still not many of his predictions looking likely due to Brexit. Maybe you could negotiate another extension on Project Fear?

We went into the transition phase. Essentially nothing changes until that ends.

One thing the economists did see was the huge drop in the value of the pound upon Brexit winning. Now that has come true has it not?

When we leave in January is when the rest will kick in. Signs are Remain was right. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

It really doesn't matter if you understand it or not, A referendum was taken and the majority of those who voted, voted to leave by more than a million votes. The people who did not vote (some 13+milion) made their vote null and void.

 

The referendum itself was badly written by David Cameron and his advisors and instead of a simple majority there should have been a minimum pass level of perhaps 60% or whatever figure seems apt.

 

IMHO DC was overconfident, lazy and slapdash over the referendum and again, IMHO he did the right thing by resigning, but for the wrong reasons.

 

However a majority of the Brits accepted the results and got on with their lives. Many however didn't, and there are a few of them on this forum.

 

DC resigned and Theresa May became PM and spent the next several years undermining the result though she promised to honour it. Along came 2019 and another General Election which Boris won as he promised that the UK WOULD leave the EU with or without a deal, which so far he has honoured that.

 

What the UK wanted was a level playing field and honest discussion and fair agreements with the EU. Not much sign of that from the EU so far. Perhaps they believed that Boris came from the same mould as DC and TM and could be walked over and ignored.

 

That hasn't happened and now both sides are getting towards the headless chicken mode.

 

My best guess is that it will go down to the last few days and some sort of fudge will hopefully be cobbled together, with perhaps a months extension and that will be it.

 

The Remainers can try for another referendum, but not until this one is completed and I expect that will be kicked down the road for a few years before something happens.

 

IF it happens then I truly hope that the referendum rules will be tightened and at least a 60% pass/fail clause is written in.

I thought you guys were happy with no deal. Now you are saying you hope a deal can be cobbled together?

Also you cant change the rules governing another referendum. 50% +1 was the stipulation the last time so should be good enough for when whats left of the UK goes crawling back to the EU.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

What the UK wanted was a level playing field and honest discussion and fair agreements with the EU. Not much sign of that from the EU so far.

What is this 'level playing field'? How exactly has the EU been dishonest in its discussions? What are the criteria for deciding whether an agreement is fair?

[billd766]

41 minutes ago, RayC said:

What is this 'level playing field'? How exactly has the EU been dishonest in its discussions? What are the criteria for deciding whether an agreement is fair?

Don't ask me, but talk to the UK and the EU negotiators as they are the people who are dealing with it.

 

I am sorry if you believe that I have a secret contact at the negotiating table but I get my information from the MSM.

 

Who decides the criteria whether an agreement is fair? I have no idea and obvously you don't either. Both sides have their own teams and if one side doesn't agree what is fair they either thrash it out until they do agree, or they pack up and go home for further consultations.

 

Like you, me and millions of other people we will bw the last persons to know what is going on and we will have to accept it or moan about it (but still accept it).

 

Nobody on TVF knows what is happening and we have no input or control over the players, so IMO the best thing is to ignore it. It won't go away but if you ignore it your stress levels will be lower.