Analysis - Trump's legacy: A more divided America, a more unsettled world

[nausea]

The big question is are we looking at closure and a new beginning, or more of the same. Mainstream media's failure to address the real concerns of c. half the population does not bode well.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, bob999999 said:

Only by Trump hating critics will that view be held. 

History will view it very differently me thinks.

 

Then you are in complete denial.

 

Face facts:  A mob, egged on by Trump, stormed the Capitol building while Congress was in session performing one of its Constitutionally mandated duties.  They overwhelmed the Capitol police, killing one in the process, and set out to capture Mike Pence and members of Congress.  Some clearly wanted to lynch these people.

 

Nothing in the history of the country compares to this.  The protests over Trump's election don't compare.  The BLM protests don't compare.  General Lee marching his army into Pennsylvania during the Civil War doesn't compare.  General Lee just wanted to enable the southern states to secede from the United States; Trump's mob wanted to end the government of the United States.

 

The storming of the Capitol by Trump's mob is very much at the next level.  If it doesn't justify impeachment and conviction, then nothing does.

[Phulublub]

 

 

Not all Republicans were part of, or supported the insurrection.

Not all Democrats were part of, or supported the riots.

Many news outlets condemned both sets of violence

 

PH

Edited January 24, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[heybruce]

I think some people took advantage of the protests about the killing of George Floyd to commit illegal acts.  I don't think anyone was attempting to overthrow the US government during these protests.

 

I also think that your CNN comment shows that you are one of those people who think news only comes from TV.  You should broaden your horizons. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[bob999999]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Then you are in complete denial.

 

Face facts:  A mob, egged on by Trump, stormed the Capitol building while Congress was in session performing one of its Constitutionally mandated duties.  They overwhelmed the Capitol police, killing one in the process, and set out to capture Mike Pence and members of Congress.  Some clearly wanted to lynch these people.

 

Nothing in the history of the country compares to this.  The protests over Trump's election don't compare.  The BLM protests don't compare.  General Lee marching his army into Pennsylvania during the Civil War doesn't compare.  General Lee just wanted to enable the southern states to secede from the United States; Trump's mob wanted to end the government of the United States.

 

The storming of the Capitol by Trump's mob is very much at the next level.  If it doesn't justify impeachment and conviction, then nothing does.

You need to read more - Facts are not Feelings.

Trump did not tell his supporters to storm the Capitol. FACT

Trump told his supporters to protest 'patrioticaly and peacefully'. FACT.

Your feelings are not facts.

Facts do not care about your feelings.

 

 

[heybruce]

13 minutes ago, nausea said:

The big question is are we looking at closure and a new beginning, or more of the same. Mainstream media's failure to address the real concerns of c. half the population does not bode well.

Why don't you explain what the "real concerns of c. half the population" are?

 

If it has to do with the gullible belief in the lies of Trump, I don't see what mainstream media can do about it.

[Sujo]

12 minutes ago, bob999999 said:

You need to read more - Facts are not Feelings.

Trump did not tell his supporters to storm the Capitol. FACT

Trump told his supporters to protest 'patrioticaly and peacefully'. FACT.

Your feelings are not facts.

Facts do not care about your feelings.

 

 

Telling them to come to dc on the 6th as its going to be wild is peaceful?

 

Perhaps you should tell those that have been charged. They said they were following what trump told them.

 

Plus as they stormed the capitol he called them patriots.

[nausea]

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Why don't you explain what the "real concerns of c. half the population" are?

 

If it has to do with the gullible belief in the lies of Trump, I don't see what mainstream media can do about it.

Oo'er, you're part of the problem, not the solution. If you don't see the mainstream bias, well, there's little hope for you. I'm, like, totally opposed to Trump, a scam artist in my view, but just saying 4 legs good, two legs bad, doesn't cut it. We need reasoned arguments that address the legitimate concerns of ordinary Americans, the American equivalent of the very English "Man on the Clapham omnibus".

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, bob999999 said:

You need to read more - Facts are not Feelings.

Trump did not tell his supporters to storm the Capitol. FACT

Trump told his supporters to protest 'patrioticaly and peacefully'. FACT.

Your feelings are not facts.

Facts do not care about your feelings.

And in Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar", Mark Anthony told the Roman mob he came "to bury Cesar, not to praise him."  Then he whipped the mob into such a frenzy they burned the Senate building.  No doubt you think he was completely innocent in this.

 

Trump also told the mob "...they rigged an election. They rigged it like they’ve never rigged an election before.", "We will stop the steal.", "we’re going to have to fight much harder.", "you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated." and on and on.   https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/transcript-of-trumps-speech-at-rally-before-us-capitol-riot

 

If you don't think these were fighting words designed to provoke the mob, you are definitely in denial.

 

If there were any doubt as to what Trump wanted the mob to do, Trump removed it when he refused to authorize bringing in the National Guard after the Capitol police were overwhelmed

 

"After a mob of his supporters broke into the Capitol building on Wednesday, President Donald Trump was initially hesitant to deploy the National Guard to respond, CNN and the New York Times reported, leaving Vice President Mike Pence to make the call while Trump continued to complain on Twitter about his electoral loss."  https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/01/06/reports-trump-resisted-sending-national-guard-to-quell-violent-mob-at-us-capitol/?sh=64ab03341e18

 

Trump attempted to stay in office through insurrection and the overthrow of the government.  He needs to be convicted.

[Sujo]

Its nice that hes gone. Even better that hes gone from twitter.

[heybruce]

 

"One particularly disturbing incident was recounted by Reuters photographer Jim Bourg, who said that he heard at least three different rioters say that they were hoping to find U.S. Vice President Mike Pence and hang him as a traitor"

 

"Bourg was not the only one to witness such threats. In fact, a viral video clip showed several members of this mob chanting “hang Mike Pence”"   https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/

Edited January 24, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

 

"One particularly disturbing incident was recounted by Reuters photographer Jim Bourg, who said that he heard at least three different rioters say that they were hoping to find U.S. Vice President Mike Pence and hang him as a traitor"

 

"Bourg was not the only one to witness such threats. In fact, a viral video clip showed several members of this mob chanting “hang Mike Pence”"   https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/

When facts are used his supporters just say they are not real, despite evidence backing up those facts.

 

They prefer alternative facts based on conspiracy.

 

Hillary was too kind saying deplorables 

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, nausea said:

Oo'er, you're part of the problem, not the solution. If you don't see the mainstream bias, well, there's little hope for you. I'm, like, totally opposed to Trump, a scam artist in my view, but just saying 4 legs good, two legs bad, doesn't cut it. We need reasoned arguments that address the legitimate concerns of ordinary Americans, the American equivalent of the very English "Man on the Clapham omnibus".

In other words, you can't state what are the legitimate concerns you want mainstream media to address.

 

You also defend Trump even though you are totally opposed to him.

 

"four legs good, two legs bad" to "four legs good, two legs better" is from "Animal Farm" by George Orwell.  I don't see how that supports your post.

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, bob999999 said:

History will show the truth - being what the real facts are as interpreted by a rational person.

 

But I do deny that what you have said is completely wrong and irrational.

 

I agree history will show what a traitor to Constitutional government Trump is. 

 

Why don't you specifically and rationally identify the part of my post that is wrong and irrational?

[bob999999]

12 minutes ago, heybruce said:

And in Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar", Mark Anthony told the Roman mob he came "to bury Cesar, not to praise him."  Then he whipped the mob into such a frenzy they burned the Senate building.  No doubt you think he was completely innocent in this.

 

Trump also told the mob "...they rigged an election. They rigged it like they’ve never rigged an election before.", "We will stop the steal.", "we’re going to have to fight much harder.", "you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated." and on and on.   https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/transcript-of-trumps-speech-at-rally-before-us-capitol-riot

 

If you don't think these were fighting words designed to provoke the mob, you are definitely in denial.

 

If there were any doubt as to what Trump wanted the mob to do, Trump removed it when he refused to authorize bringing in the National Guard after the Capitol police were overwhelmed

 

"After a mob of his supporters broke into the Capitol building on Wednesday, President Donald Trump was initially hesitant to deploy the National Guard to respond, CNN and the New York Times reported, leaving Vice President Mike Pence to make the call while Trump continued to complain on Twitter about his electoral loss."  https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/01/06/reports-trump-resisted-sending-national-guard-to-quell-violent-mob-at-us-capitol/?sh=64ab03341e18

 

Trump attempted to stay in office through insurrection and the overthrow of the government.  He needs to be convicted.

Fake News.   Trump invented that saying.  Dont you know what Fake News is??

 

Several days before the protests the Capitol Police/Security were offered National Guard support - they rejected that offer.

That is why the Chief resigned after what happened.

[bob999999]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

 

"One particularly disturbing incident was recounted by Reuters photographer Jim Bourg, who said that he heard at least three different rioters say that they were hoping to find U.S. Vice President Mike Pence and hang him as a traitor"

 

"Bourg was not the only one to witness such threats. In fact, a viral video clip showed several members of this mob chanting “hang Mike Pence”"   https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/

 

You have proven video evidence that Trump told anyone to do that ??

 

I am certain that Biden/Pelosi etc did not tell anyone to kill a Trump supporter.

And I would not make that false claim.  But why do you think it is OK for you to make such a claim??

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by onthedarkside
personal comment removed

[bob999999]

 

Do you have any evidence that Trump 'instructed' anyone to commit violence??

 

Let it go. Trump is not that bad. Yes you hate him for beating Hillary. But let it go.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[xylophone]

1 minute ago, bob999999 said:

Fake News.   Trump invented that saying.  Dont you know what Fake News is??

@heybruce 

I guess you and other rational folk like me have found that trying to discuss/argue/have discourse with a trump supporter is like trying to play chess with a pigeon.

 

Quite why these people go to great lengths to deny facts, even when they are on video clips from the occasion, or from reputable news outlets, is mystifying indeed, because the facts are clear and viewable, but this does not seem to sink in for these poor unfortunates.

 

There have been clear occasions when trump has actually said something and been recorded saying it, yet a few diehard unfortunate trump supporters will still come out and say, "he didn't say that", when in fact he clearly did.

 

There is nothing one can do about this, when poor misfits decide to exist on a different universe, so perhaps better if we let them have that universe to themselves, whilst we carry on intelligent conversation here.

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, bob999999 said:

You have proven video evidence that Trump told anyone to do that ??

 

I am certain that Biden/Pelosi etc did not tell anyone to kill a Trump supporter.

And I would not make that false claim.  But why do you think it is OK for you to make such a claim??

 

 

That was not your assertion at the start of this exchange.  Or maybe you forgot what you wrote:

 

But you think BLM and Antifa have been civil in their protests?

Because CNN told you so??

Both sides have been wrong, Both sides have caused violence, Both sides have been wrong.

But both sides are not condemned by the media.

 

I do not think anyone has claimed in subsequent posts that Trump told anyone to do that.  But just like your Dear Leader, obfuscation, deflection and diversion is the order of the day when you try to subvert facts with noise.

 

PH

[bob999999]

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

That was not your assertion at the start of this exchange.  Or maybe you forgot what you wrote:

But you think BLM and Antifa have been civil in their protests?

Because CNN told you so??

Both sides have been wrong, Both sides have caused violence, Both sides have been wrong.

But both sides are not condemned by the media.

 

I do not think anyone has claimed in subsequent posts that Trump told anyone to do that.  But just like your Dear Leader, obfuscation, deflection and diversion is the order of the day when you try to subvert facts with noise.

PH

 

Yes they are. Read them all. 

[nausea]

24 minutes ago, heybruce said:

In other words, you can't state what are the legitimate concerns you want mainstream media to address.

 

You also defend Trump even though you are totally opposed to him.

 

"four legs good, two legs bad" to "four legs good, two legs better" is from "Animal Farm" by George Orwell.  I don't see how that supports your post.

Ask yourself this question, what perecentage of the vote do you think Trump would've got, if mainstream media was for him rather than against him, claims of voter fraud aside. The opposition wasn't exactly scintillating. A second question, you really think mainstream media doesn't have an agenda? 

[Phulublub]

8 minutes ago, bob999999 said:

 

Yes they are. Read them all. 

Nope.  Read them all and nope again.  Several have (correctly)pointed out that Trump incited the crowd.  No-one (unless I am very much mistake, in which case I am sure you can point the offending post out to me)  has said Trump told anyone to commit murder.

 

PH

Edited January 24, 2021 by Phulublub

[xylophone]

Follow "my leader" is the name of the game as far as these trump supporters go, so if it's okay for him to lie, steal, cheat, mock the afflicted and dishonour American heroes, then it's okay for these unfortunates to do likewise.

 

You could say it's a bit like a "Spock Mind Meld" whereby they replicated all of the nasty things within that tiny trump mind.
 

[bob999999]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

Nope.  Read them all and nope again.  Several have (correctly)pointed out that Trump incited the crowd.  No-one (unless I am very much mistake, in which case I am sure you can point the offending post out to me)  has said Trump told anyone to commit murder.

 

PH

"Several have (correctly)pointed out that Trump incited the crowd." 

Is your opinion - that is a Fact.

 

A Trump supporter was shot and killed - Fact.

I did not accuse any Dem of inciting that violence - Fact.

Trump did not incite his supporters to invade the Capital building - Fact.

Your 'TV Friends' are accusing Trump of inciting that violence - Fact.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by onthedarkside
personal comment removed

[Phulublub]

1 minute ago, bob999999 said:

"Several have (correctly)pointed out that Trump incited the crowd." 

Is your opinion - that is a Fact.

 

A Trump supporter was shot and killed - Fact.

I did not accuse any Dem of inciting that violence - Fact.

Trump did not incite his supporters to invade the Capital building - Fact.

Your 'TV Friends' are accusing Trump of inciting that violence - Fact.

 

I am not sorry of that makes you feel bad.

 

Fact:  Trump incited the crowd (as did Don Jr, Mike Flynn, Guilliani, but that is separate)

Fact:  A member of a violent mob was shot and killed.  We agree wasmost probably a Trump supporter

Fact:  No one has said you accused any Dem of inciting that violence.  Irrelevent

Fact:  Trump did incite his supporters.  How they inter[retted his words will be examined in Court in the coming days

Fact:  Your 'TV Friends' are accusing Trump of inciting that violence.  Again, we agree

 

But what about your previous (mis)statement?  Can you not provide evidence that you were correct and I was wrong? 

 

PH

[J Town]

12 minutes ago, nausea said:

Ask yourself this question, what percentage of the vote do you think Trump would've got, if mainstream media was for him rather than against him, claims of voter fraud aside. The opposition wasn't exactly scintillating. A second question, you really think mainstream media doesn't have an agenda? 

You're asking the equivalent of "would 9/11 have happened, airplane attacks aside?" Both my statement and yours make no sense.

 

MSM got him elected in 2016. HE lost the 2020 election all by his lonesome.

[bob999999]

1 minute ago, J Town said:

You're asking the equivalent of "would 9/11 have happened, airplane attacks aside?" Both my statement and yours make no sense.

 

MSM got him elected in 2016. HE lost the 2020 election all by his lonesome.

Rubbish.

Anti establishment (swamp) and pro-Amercia (Maga) got Trump elected in 2016.

Covid and the Media is why Trump lost in 2020.

[polpott]

Just now, bob999999 said:

Rubbish.

Anti establishment (swamp) and pro-Amercia (Maga) got Trump elected in 2016.

Covid and the Media is why Trump lost in 2020.

Nope, just racists in various forms.

[placeholder]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, bob999999 said:

 

Feelings, nothing more than feelings.............

 

All those statements are allegations made by the media.

 

Nonsense.

“Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election,” Trump, a Republican, tweeted on Dec. 20. “Big protest in DC on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-idUSKBN29B24S

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, bob999999 said:

"Several have (correctly)pointed out that Trump incited the crowd." 

Is your opinion - that is a Fact.

 

A Trump supporter was shot and killed - Fact.

I did not accuse any Dem of inciting that violence - Fact.

Trump did not incite his supporters to invade the Capital building - Fact.

Your 'TV Friends' are accusing Trump of inciting that violence - Fact.

 

I am not sorry of that makes you feel bad.

 

Here's another fact:

This what Trump said to the rioters:
“These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long,” Trump wrote in a message that was later deleted by Twitter on Wednesday. He added, “Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!”

https://globalnews.ca/news/7563269/trump-supporter-fired-capitol-riot-badge/