My Issan 10kw on grid solar project fully installed by contractors 337,500bht

[Thaifish]

I have pretty much decided on lashing out and buying the Luna 2000 Huawei 15 KWH battery kit..... No change from 300,000bht!!!!!. Will go into ROI later if I buy and reasons for. In discussions with contractor how I can fit without voiding warranty today. One thing the contractor said was that in event of a blackout the batteries would shut down and not supply power to the bahn.. I have caught this guy out a few times already even with my basic sparky knowledge. Question for the guru's is he wrong. Should I still have power and be able to drain the batteries along with the help of the PV's in event of a power drop. I cant find anything concrete in specs etc saying system will work when grid power is down.

[david555]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:55 PM, Thaifish said:

Solar installation quote Thailand.pdfUnavailable

337,500bht....How many sunny Thailand day's /hours to break even ? ????????

[Thaifish]

12 hours ago, david555 said:

337,500bht....How many sunny Thailand day's /hours to break even ? ????

Will go into ROI later once I buy...It's not the only reason I want to buy but big part of it.. The Wet Season all but done now..plenty of Sun already and more to come...

[Crossy]

12 hours ago, Thaifish said:

I cant find anything concrete in specs etc saying system will work when grid power is down.

 

As installed he is correct, no grid = no output.

 

But most on-grid hybrids have an "essential supply output" (basically a UPS like system) which you can link your important stuff to, this is isolated from the grid and runs from the batteries and/or solar when the grid is down. You need to check the manuals for your inverters.

 

[Thaifish]

20 hours ago, Crossy said:

As installed he is correct, no grid = no output.

 

But most on-grid hybrids have an "essential supply output"

Found it...I understand now fank you. Huawei call it a Back up Box.. None of their system displays show this in the configuration... Its something extra to wire in... I learnt something today...

[Thaifish]

[Thaifish]

Production for Aug 1.117Gwh. 36Kwh average per day. Have had plenty of heavy cloud and rain so not a bad average. Sometimes the rain has been continuous for two or more days in a row (like now). Consumption 1.233Gwh and has dropped off considerably now it has cooled down. In saying that we exported 491kw free to PEA. I have been trying my best to consume power with cooling the whole house even though not needed. Still waiting on Smart Meter. Phone calls every Monday to nobody who gives a rats. The Bin for the Month was 2500Bht so if there was a Grid Smart Meter I would have got at least a 1,000bht discount and more if I wasn't wasting power. 3 blackouts for the month 4hrs 4hrs and the last 11hrs starting at 8pm. Dinner by candlelight and torch. I'm still running with my plan to go down the battery path. I know I will not be able to justify a ROI doing it but have other reasons which I will post about as it happens. 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 2/26/2021 at 9:34 AM, JBChiangRai said:

I also have 26KwHrs (usable 21) of LiFePo batteries sourced and shipped the same way for 85,000 baht including BMS and Active Balancers.

JB, any chance you could share the vendor information for your system. Your setup sound like exactly what I  have been looking for.

[JBChiangRai]

5 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

JB, any chance you could share the vendor information for your system. Your setup sound like exactly what I  have been looking for.

The BMS’s were bought on AliExpress, they both broke in the first week so I don’t recommend them.  The Active Balancers were also bought on AliExpress, they’re ok I believe.

 

I now run without BMS, but my battery boxes have breakers for short circuit protection, my hybrid inverters are set for a low maximum charge rate (I charge quite slowly so I don’t need thermal management) and to only charge to 80% SoC and 10% DoD. In effect they are line interactive UPS units the way I use them.

 

I bought the Hybrid inverters direct from MUST Solar in China, they are 5.5Kw models and cost 16,333 baht delivered all duties paid. I bought the MUST Grid-Tied inverters from Thai Jeen Solar on Lazada. I had to add those because I export on average 80 KwHr’s per day (peak 120) and we use about that too as we run all the 11 air conditioning units 24/7 and keep the house at a constant temperature.

 

The MUST Hybrid Inverters are extremely poor at exporting power to the grid.

 

The batteries were imported by my friend and sourced by his Chinese ex-wife. Unfortunately, he crashed his motorbike and killed himself a week after the batteries were delivered, I believe they are Listen 272Ahr prismatic cells, I have 32 of them in two battery boxes.

 

I would caution against using more than one battery box, if a breaker trips and they get out of sync, you can’t just switch it back on as you’ll get an uncontrolled inrush of current from the other battery box.

 

I’m looking for a Hybrid Inverter that can run 3 units in parallel, can export a decent amount to the grid, and delivers its power in all conditions without using a separate emergency power circuit, and is also fanless. I’ve achieved that using 3 grid-tied and 3 hybrid inverters but I’d like to simplify it on the next project.

 

I build high end homes in Chiang Rai for resale. 

[HighPriority]

Great read Thaifish, thank you.

I live in Darwin, Northern Australia and the battery setups (lead acid/gel) I’ve come across are usually installed in an Aircon environment.

Im not sure if that’s pertinent to Lithium ?

 

[Thaifish]

20 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Im not sure if that’s pertinent to Lithium

Thanks for the compliment!! Yeah Lithium similar to wet batteries not liking the heat. The spot I will be putting my batteries is well shaded. I'm also fortunate living in the sticks with free air coming from the surrounding fruit, tapioca, palm, rubber trees etc etc and on top of that sun hitting the solar panels for 99% of the day. I used Darwin's Postcode 0800 to calculate my expected production as very similar Latitude to Issan albeit Southern Hemisphere. Here is the calculator https://solarcalculator.com.au/

I'm a NSW cockroach!!

[HighPriority]

3 hours ago, Thaifish said:

Thanks for the compliment!! Yeah Lithium similar to wet batteries not liking the heat. The spot I will be putting my batteries is well shaded. I'm also fortunate living in the sticks with free air coming from the surrounding fruit, tapioca, palm, rubber trees etc etc and on top of that sun hitting the solar panels for 99% of the day. I used Darwin's Postcode 0800 to calculate my expected production as very similar Latitude to Issan albeit Southern Hemisphere. Here is the calculator https://solarcalculator.com.au/

I'm a NSW cockroach!!

Yes, I’m sure your installers would agree with you… ????

????????

My wife is from Phon Phisai way, not much big greenery up there in fact it’s very like Darwin/Top End, red dirt, laterite, similar grasses and flat ground.

[Opossum]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:27 AM, JBChiangRai said:

The BMS’s were bought on AliExpress, they both broke in the first week so I don’t recommend them.  The Active Balancers were also bought on AliExpress, they’re ok I believe.

 

I now run without BMS, but my battery boxes have breakers for short circuit protection, my hybrid inverters are set for a low maximum charge rate (I charge quite slowly so I don’t need thermal management) and to only charge to 80% SoC and 10% DoD. In effect they are line interactive UPS units the way I use them.

 

I bought the Hybrid inverters direct from MUST Solar in China, they are 5.5Kw models and cost 16,333 baht delivered all duties paid. I bought the MUST Grid-Tied inverters from Thai Jeen Solar on Lazada. I had to add those because I export on average 80 KwHr’s per day (peak 120) and we use about that too as we run all the 11 air conditioning units 24/7 and keep the house at a constant temperature.

 

The MUST Hybrid Inverters are extremely poor at exporting power to the grid.

 

The batteries were imported by my friend and sourced by his Chinese ex-wife. Unfortunately, he crashed his motorbike and killed himself a week after the batteries were delivered, I believe they are Listen 272Ahr prismatic cells, I have 32 of them in two battery boxes.

 

I would caution against using more than one battery box, if a breaker trips and they get out of sync, you can’t just switch it back on as you’ll get an uncontrolled inrush of current from the other battery box.

 

I’m looking for a Hybrid Inverter that can run 3 units in parallel, can export a decent amount to the grid, and delivers its power in all conditions without using a separate emergency power circuit, and is also fanless. I’ve achieved that using 3 grid-tied and 3 hybrid inverters but I’d like to simplify it on the next project.

 

I build high end homes in Chiang Rai for resale. 

Hi

 

sorry for dropping in. Do you have a special room for the lithium batteries like a bunker or how do you shield the rest of the house from the batteries? There were cases were Tesla cars started to burn and they really have top engineers and almost unlimited financials.

 

Is this your solution for it?

"I now run without BMS, but my battery boxes have breakers for short circuit protection, my hybrid inverters are set for a low maximum charge rate (I charge quite slowly so I don’t need thermal management) and to only charge to 80% SoC and 10% DoD. In effect they are line interactive UPS units the way I use them."

 

I'm absolutely a greenhorn in this topic but would like to use one day lithium batteries - this is the reason for my question.

 

 

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, Opossum said:

Do you have a special room for the lithium batteries like a bunker or how do you shield the rest of the house from the batteries? There were cases were Tesla cars started to burn and they really have top engineers and almost unlimited financials.

 

Our batteries live in their own shed at the end of the car port (panels are on the car port roof). Shed is steel framed and clad with Shera cement board, decidedly non-flamable. It's also well shaded from direct sunlight, none of the battery chemistries like being hot.

 

There are two types of lithium batteries in common use. Lithium-ion (Li-ion) like Tesla use which have a very high power density but can be prone to thermal runaway leading to conflagration, and lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) which don't have quite the power density but are much less prone to conflagration.

 

That said, there is an awful lot of energy tied up in there and a short or other failure can lead to that lot being released as heat with the inevitable results! DC rated MCBs and fuses are essential.

 

We are using 200Ah LiFePO4 cells in a 16S (nominal 48V) configuration.

[JBChiangRai]

10 hours ago, Opossum said:

Hi

 

sorry for dropping in. Do you have a special room for the lithium batteries like a bunker or how do you shield the rest of the house from the batteries? There were cases were Tesla cars started to burn and they really have top engineers and almost unlimited financials.

 

Is this your solution for it?

"I now run without BMS, but my battery boxes have breakers for short circuit protection, my hybrid inverters are set for a low maximum charge rate (I charge quite slowly so I don’t need thermal management) and to only charge to 80% SoC and 10% DoD. In effect they are line interactive UPS units the way I use them."

 

I'm absolutely a greenhorn in this topic but would like to use one day lithium batteries - this is the reason for my question.

 

 

I have a special room next to the garage, it's permanently air conditioned and serves multiple purposes, it hosts 3 grid-tied and 3 hybrid inverters (the latter used as whole house UPS), the LiFePo4 battery packs, 2 computer servers, and it's also a wine cellar.  

 

The garage next to it also has an EV car in it with a 93.4KwHr battery pack in it.  I charge the car at 10amps it's set to complete charging the battery to 75% capacity by 7:45am, ie the coolest part of the day.  I can charge it at 32 amps on single phase but I prefer to keep it cool, minimise risk and prioritise longevity of the battery.

 

My LiFePo4 packs are charged to 80% SoC at 30 amps (0.12c) to prevent any risk of thermal runaway, they are only discharged in a power cut to a maximum of about 15% SoC.

 

Thermal runaway is mostly a function of high current, typically charging.

  

 

[Opossum]

13 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

....

We are using 200Ah LiFePO4 cells in a 16S (nominal 48V) configuration.

May I ask where you bought them? I found some on Lazada but it's hard to find a reliable seller. Can you recommend one? I'm very confused why e.g. homepro and globalhouse do not sell them together with all the solar-stuff.

 

[Thaifish]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:26 AM, Opossum said:

Do you have a special room for the lithium batteries like a bunker

The spot I have picked is open with good ventilation and well shaded. The wall I intend to place the batteries is brick 3.5mt under the carport with a tin roof above. No combustible material nearby. If you flick through my earlier photos and see the inverters being installed that's where I am going to put them. I have seen videos of lithium batteries on fire and it is scary stuff.

[Crossy]

11 hours ago, Opossum said:

May I ask where you bought them? I found some on Lazada but it's hard to find a reliable seller. Can you recommend one? I'm very confused why e.g. homepro and globalhouse do not sell them together with all the solar-stuff.

 

Since we are "experimental" (and not millionaires) I got the used golf-cart batteries from lifepo4shop 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/calb-lifepo4-32v-200ah-4-12v-i2523760591-s8967280783.html

 

I've seen these advertised as "new" on AliExpress but CALB stopped using that case style some years back. I've also got a "100Ah" pack which I was given by a mate who was rather miffed to find they measured at 50Ah, so yes finding a good seller isn't always easy!

 

They're certainly well used, testing at about 80% of new capacity but at 1,600 Baht a pop what's not to like. We will see how they go life wise. They're coupled with a Daly 16S 100A Smart BMS

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/i2480878972-s8740847689.html

 

We also have a "flying capacitor" active balancer which can shift 5A between any pair of cells if they go off balance. With used and probably mis-matched cells I consider this an essential item. It works very well, this morning the cells are within 12mV according to the BMS.

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i2299959424-s7751185517.html

 

[Thaifish]

This month just managed to produce 1.013Gwh even though we had continual cloudy rainy days. The rain has been like the Forest Gump Movie. It turned off 3 days ago but still heaps of cloud.  Averaged 33Kwh per day. 53% self sufficient... Exported 583Kwh free to PEA!!!... My Fy Bin was 2,448bht for the month!! Consumption has dropped off also. If I had the PEA meter I would have got 1,282Bht @2.2Bht p/kwh... Don't mention the war!!!!! Have been side tracked with Fellang men's secret business so batteries have been on hold... It's on this weeks to do list to make it happen

 

Managed to break a daily production record in amongst the rain and cloud with room for improvement. Cooked 52.62Kwh for the day.

 

 

The following day the complete opposite. Such is the life of a Solar Farmer....

 

 

Hopefully I will update soon with the battery installation chapter...

 

[Henk Langeweg]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:37 PM, Thaifish said:

This month just managed to produce 1.013Gwh even though we had continual cloudy rainy days. The rain has been like the Forest Gump Movie. It turned off 3 days ago but still heaps of cloud.  Averaged 33Kwh per day. 53% self sufficient... Exported 583Kwh free to PEA!!!... My Fy Bin was 2,448bht for the month!! Consumption has dropped off also. If I had the PEA meter I would have got 1,282Bht @2.2Bht p/kwh... Don't mention the war!!!!! Have been side tracked with Fellang men's secret business so batteries have been on hold... It's on this weeks to do list to make it happen

 

Managed to break a daily production record in amongst the rain and cloud with room for improvement. Cooked 52.62Kwh for the day.

 

 

The following day the complete opposite. Such is the life of a Solar Farmer....

 

 

Hopefully I will update soon with the battery installation chapter...

 

It's early but musn't that be Mwh instead of Gwh?

[Thaifish]

8 hours ago, Henk Langeweg said:

It's early but musn't that be Mwh instead of Gwh?

In the mothly Graph Yeild was 1013.012Kwh which is the same as 1.013Gwh. It sounds like you have made more when you use Gwh instead of Kwh. ⚡

[Thaifish]

The Ducks lined up this month, and so did the Sun. Some Ducks went walkabout and the cloud covered the Sun! Was meant to have the 15kwh batteries installed a couple of weeks ago.. The floods caused a delivery delay?!! So come this Sunday one of the ducks will hopefully get back in line. Im using a different contractor for installation from Surin this time......385K Bht. 5 years warranty 555. Including Back up Box for power outages.

PEA Korat was meant to turn up last week for electrical inspection but the main guy had a reaction to his Covid injection... Thats another Duck on walkabout but at least the Luv Machine is slowly getting the squeaky door oiled. Will let her continue playing with them the Thai way...At least some movement from PEA. 

So managed to produce just over 1 Mwh given the cloudy wet month. Gave away 600Kwh again free to PEA  which should have been 1,200Bht in my pocket! Bring on the Batteries and Smart meter!!

The system has been producing more than consumption last few months which is what I want to tap into. One black out this month 3 hours..

 

The Sun on the 21st October had a declination of 10Deg 29Min South which put it staring straight at the PV's with the pitch of the roof 23Deg South. Yep the Solar Puddah was not on my side with cloud that day (was hoping on blue sky's) but managed another record a few days later with 55.8Kwh production. Will I crack 60kwh?? There's still room for improvement..

 

[sezze]

On 10/4/2021 at 11:21 AM, Thaifish said:

In the mothly Graph Yeild was 1013.012Kwh which is the same as 1.013Gwh. It sounds like you have made more when you use Gwh instead of Kwh. ⚡

1000 kWh equals 1 MWh = 0.001 GWh .

so sorry , as far as i know , you didn't make gigawatts , but megawatts . Which is still very good , but a factor 1000 difference. 

[Thaifish]

4 hours ago, sezze said:

1000 kWh equals 1 MWh = 0.001 GWh .

I stand corrected.. Thanks for that.. Good to see people taking notice..????

[Gweiloman]

Very interesting read Thaifish. Thanks for creating this thread.  
 

I have been toying with the idea of installing a 3KwP system, costs around Thb150,000. (Can’t go down the DIY route due to lack of skill and expertise on matters electric). My usage throughout the day is fairly constant as I don’t need to turn on the ac much here in CM. I use about 650-750 units a month on average, so about Thb 3,000 per month. I don’t think I will be going down the MySolarHome route either as it seems too troublesome, what with the enormous amount of work and hassle involved. 
 

If I’m unable to benefit from net metering, then my ROI is not very attractive. I was wondering if it’s possible to have one of those standard systems installed that could turn my meter backwards when I’m overproducing but at the same time, having the possibility to either shut down the system or to disable exporting when the meter reader comes around?  
 

Any comments and advice much appreciated. 
 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

I was wondering if it’s possible to have one of those standard systems installed that could turn my meter backwards when I’m overproducing but at the same time, having the possibility to either shut down the system or to disable exporting when the meter reader comes around?  

 

That's exactly what we do. If you have the old mechanical disc meters they go in reverse just fine.

 

Check out my solar carport thread for a device to automagically turn off export (assuming you have an inverter that can do it) on those meter-reader days.

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

That's exactly what we do. If you have the old mechanical disc meters they go in reverse just fine.

 

Check out my solar carport thread for a device to automagically turn off export (assuming you have an inverter that can do it) on those meter-reader days.

One system I’m looking at is the one installed by A Solar Corp Co Ltd in CM. They use the Huawei inverter. Will check with them if this inverter can turn off export. Also heard of another company call Eyekandi Solar. Will check with them too. 
 

Thanks

[Thaifish]

6 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

If I’m unable to benefit from net metering, then my ROI is not very attractive. I was wondering if it’s possible to have one of those standard systems installed that could turn my meter backwards when I’m overproducing but at the same time, having the possibility to either shut down the system or to disable exporting when the meter reader comes around?  

Net metering the legal way is a pain in the "swear word". If you are really, really, really lucky you might have an old PEA meter which spins backwards so you will get net metering return Kwh for Kwh (instead of 2.2Bht k/wh). The thing to look for on your meter is if it has a "+ and - symbol with an arrow above the spinning disk" like the photo below. If the arrow is only going one way and does not show a - then your out of luck.

Any inverter of reasonable quality would have the option to disable export by a push of a computer button or switch while still providing Solar power. Disabling export when the meter reader is around is the way to go. 

 

Going for a small system like you are thinking of has a lot of advantages ROI wise.

[Crossy]

5 hours ago, Thaifish said:

The thing to look for on your meter is if it has a "+ and - symbol with an arrow above the spinning disk" like the photo below. If the arrow is only going one way and does not show a - then your out of luck.

 

Ours is a 2011 vintage PEA Type EMM 12, it doesn't have the + & - symbols but it does whizz backwards (and wind the numbers backwards) just fine.

 

EDIT Now I look more closely there's a + & - arrow thingy on the right hand side which I'd not noticed before. I previously assumed the +/- on the left was factory adjustment, could be mistaken there too.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

A question on PEA 'buyback' of excess.  Do they actually pay in baht if sending more than used.  Going solar hopefully before end of year, when house done, and hope I over estimated to system.  To the point of not needing any PEA service and bill will be the 41 baht hook up charge.

 

If sending PEA 100 or 200 units a month would they pay cash, or simply deduct from PEA use only, and if no use, obviously not deduct but can any cash payment be expected, or just a very silent, non existent thanks.