SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[7by7]

13 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

<snip>

If who lost? The referendum paved the way for Brexit.

 

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

Quote

The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'

 

Of course, he changed his mind the morning after the results were announced!

[7by7]

22 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

<snip>

I hope Scotland do have another independence referendum and I hope the result is accepted by all, regardless of what that result might be

The UK Scotland voted to remain a part of in 2014 radically changed in 2016. That is the argument for holding another independence referendum so soon after the last.

 

Unless a similar radical event happens, then I can see no reason why a result to remain in the UK, should that happen, would not be accepted by all.

 

25 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

<snip>

Not any arguments about what region might have voted for what.

Scotland is not a region. It is, like England, Northern Ireland and Wales, one of the four nations which make up the UK.

[vogie]

20 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

It wasn't me who brought English nationalism into the thread; and I was responding directly to a post of yours as is obvious because I quoted it! I refer you to that response.

 

To repeat; not all English nationalists are bad, but those that are, like the EDL, get the headlines and that is why they and their ilk come first to most people's mind's when the phrase "English nationalism" is spoken or written.

 

 "I haven't read up yet on Russian nationalism yet, but the information you include just so you can win the argument is quite outstanding." 

I know that Brexiteers are against providing information and evidence to support their arguments, but I believe in doing so. Read the link; it's not all about Russian nationalism. It was also used to support my view that not all nationalism is bad. 

 

Telling that, as usual, you have dodged and not answered the question!

 

"Nationalism is nationalism and why a socialist would give their backing....."

Which socialist is that, then?

 

"This is a quote from the author Elif Shafak...."

Why no link to it's source?

 

You should read more of her works on the matter. Do so and you'll find she is not against the sort of nationalism represented by the SNP, but the tribal nationalism which focuses on ethnicity she first witnessed in her home country. 

 

Indeed, due to the activities of many parties calling themselves nationalists across Europe, the words 'nationalism' and 'nationalist' are becoming more and more associated with the alt-right.

 

Something recognised by, among others, Sturgeon in 2017: Scotland's Sturgeon says nationalism a difficult word

 

 

I cannot be bothered going through every little point of yours, it gets so monotonous, if you want to support nationalism, be my guest.

As for your comment about Russian nationalism, check out this link, it is everything that you are totally againgst and I will include the actual video from Elif Shafak. I am not going to listen to people justifying nationalism, one day it might be too late when Scotland turns into something like we saw in NI in the 70s.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qm1qvh2z058

 

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

I cannot be bothered going through every little point of yours, it gets so monotonous, if you want to support nationalism, be my guest.

As for your comment about Russian nationalism, check out this link, it is everything that you are totally againgst and I will include the actual video from Elif Shafak. I am not going to listen to people justifying nationalism, one day it might be too late when Scotland turns into something like we saw in NI in the 70s.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qm1qvh2z058

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where did I comment on, let alone support, the Russian nationalism based upon ethnicity displayed in that video? I didn't.

 

 I did mention the nationalism which, in part, led to the break up of the Soviet Union and asked you if you believed that to be bad. Yet again, you've dodged that question. No surprise there.

 

The rest of your posts is, yet again, about tribal nationalism; not the nationalism which is an expression of national, not ethnic, identity. Your source, Elif Shafak, knows and has written about the difference; you should learn from her.

 

Addendum.

"one day it might be too late when Scotland turns into something like we saw in NI in the 70s."

 

Equating the SNP with the IRA; a new low even for you.

Edited March 21, 2021 by 7by7
Addendum

[youreavinalaff]

20 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Many Brexiteers and those opposed to IndyRef2 have made it clear that they only believe in democracy when the result suits them. Are you in that group?

 

And you asked me to read whole posts. Blimey. Had you practiced what you preach you would not have needed to ask that question.

 

23 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

In 2019 Johnson tried various dirty tricks to get his proposed EU withdrawal agreement into law without Parliament voting on it. These failed, so he called a general election. In that general election, approximately 54% voted for parties which promised, at the very least, a referendum on whether or not to accept that proposed withdrawal agreement. Unfortunately, our FPTP system denied us that.

The referendum was "leave" or "remain". Not, can we have another vote on anything that we don't like. Are you suggesting that a referendum should be held every time parliament needs to make a decision? That would really get things done, wouldn't it!?. No. The point is that 54% of whoever that voted for what ever is insignificant. It is the number of MPs that are voted in to each party that counts. That is the system. So, a referendum in favour of "leave" and an overwhelming majority in the election for the only party that was going to back the population's vote without trying to change it because of their own beliefs made Brexit happen.

 

If the independence leaning parties in Scotland get a majority then, if it was my decision, a second referendum would be granted. However, there would be the need to put into the deal how long until the next one should take place to stop the losers, in the case of a repeat of the last result, from banging on about it until they get the result they want.

[youreavinalaff]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Scotland is not a region. It is, like England, Northern Ireland and Wales, one of the four nations which make up the UK.

I didn't say Scotland was a region. I was referring to regions of UK in general. I'm sure there are some pro Union "regions" of Scotland that voted "Leave" in the EU referendum.

 

 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not any arguments about what region might have voted for what.

Scotland, which voted to remain, is not a region of anything. It is a country.

[youreavinalaff]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Scotland, which voted to remain, is not a region of anything. It is a country.

A bit late there. I have already explained my in my post above.

 

I used the word "country" in a previous discussion and was told, in no uncertain terms, that I couldn't use that word as even countries were divided by different views by region. 

 

Seems the nit pickers will never be happy.

 

At least we agree on the Scotland vote. They did indeed vote to remain, in the UK.

Edited March 21, 2021 by youreavinalaff

[Bluespunk]

53 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

A bit late there. I have already explained my in my post above.

 

I used the word "country" in a previous discussion and was told, in no uncertain terms, that I couldn't use that word as even countries were divided by different views by region. 

 

Seems the nit pickers will never be happy.

 

At least we agree on the Scotland vote. They did indeed vote to remain, in the UK.

No idea who told you scotland wasn't a country but they are wrong.

 

As is describing it as a region, and yes I did read your post...

 

No we don't agree, Scotland has every right to a referendum on leaving the uk.

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

31 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No idea who told you scotland wasn't a country but they are wrong.

 

As is describing it as a region, and yes I did read your post...

 

No we don't agree, Scotland has every right to a referendum on leaving the uk.

 

Firstly, no one told me Scotland was not a country. Read what I said.

 

It is also quite acceptable, if anyone wishes to do so, call Scotland a region of UK. As it is OK to call England,Wales or N. Ireland a region of UK. As it is also OK to call Europe a region of the world.

 

I don't understand your disagreement. Do you really disagree that there was a referendum in Scotland and the result was to remain in the UK? Please note, I am talking in the past tense just as I was in the post that you disagreed with. Any future referendum that may or may not take place has no bearing on what I said. I would think you would find it impossible to disagree in this case, unless you have selective memory with regards to events of 2014.

Edited March 21, 2021 by youreavinalaff

[Surelynot]

36 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No idea who told you scotland wasn't a country but they are wrong.

 

As is describing it as a region, and yes I did read your post...

 

No we don't agree, Scotland has every right to a referendum on leaving the uk.

 

 

An appendage? 

[youreavinalaff]

42 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 

No we don't agree, Scotland has every right to a referendum on leaving the uk.

If you read my previous posts you will see that I said, it were up to me, Scotland would get Indyref2.

 

I guess that now means we agree on 2 points. 

[Bluespunk]

 

 

34 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

 

Firstly, no one told me Scotland was not a country. Read what I said.

 

It is also quite acceptable, if anyone wishes to do so, call Scotland a region of UK. As it is OK to call England,Wales or N. Ireland a region of UK. As it is also OK to call Europe a region of the world.

 

I don't understand your disagreement. Do you really disagree that there was a referendum in Scotland and the result was to remain in the UK? Please note, I am talking in the past tense just as I was in the post that you disagreed with. Any future referendum that may or may not take place has no bearing on what I said. I would think you would find it impossible to disagree in this case, unless you have selective memory with regards to events of 2014.

Scotland is a COUNTRY and should be referred to as such.

 

It is not a region of the uk but a country within this union, with its own laws, boundaries, currency and other elements of a nation.

 

After Scotland's wishes to remain in the EU after the brexit vote were ignored, it is more than reasonable to allow them to reassess whether they wish to be shackled to a union that forced a decision against the wishes of the majority of its citizens.

 

I'm not surprised you do not wish to understand this or my disagreement with your view.

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

22 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

If you read my previous posts you will see that I said, it were up to me, Scotland would get Indyref2.

 

I guess that now means we agree on 2 points. 

Nope

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

I cannot be bothered going through every little point of yours, it gets so monotonous, if you want to support nationalism, be my guest.

As for your comment about Russian nationalism, check out this link, it is everything that you are totally againgst and I will include the actual video from Elif Shafak. I am not going to listen to people justifying nationalism, one day it might be too late when Scotland turns into something like we saw in NI in the 70s.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qm1qvh2z058

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again you choose to avoid the issue of different forms of nationalism I pointed out to you. Including comprehensive links as to their definition. 

[youreavinalaff]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Nope

OK. Just to clear this up once and for all.

 

I believe that Scotland should be given the opportunity for a 2nd referendum, as I stated in my previous post. Do you agree?

 

Scotland had a referendum in 2014 in which they voted to remain within the UK. Do you agree?

 

 

[Bluespunk]

13 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

OK. Just to clear this up once and for all.

 

I believe that Scotland should be given the opportunity for a 2nd referendum, as I stated in my previous post. Do you agree?

 

Scotland had a referendum in 2014 in which they voted to remain within the UK. Do you agree?

 

 

2014 is utterly irrelevant and was rendered so by the brexit vote that forced Scotland out of the EU. 
 

The times they are a-changing...

[youreavinalaff]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

2014 is utterly irrelevant and was rendered so by the brexit vote that forced Scotland out of the EU. 
 

The times they are a-changing...

The inability to answer straight questions. Seems to be a common factor when Scottish nationalists are asked about events of 2104.

 

I did not ask about the relevance. I merely asked you if you agreed the referendum happened.

[Rookiescot]

49 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

The inability to answer straight questions. Seems to be a common factor when Scottish nationalists are asked about events of 2104.

 

I did not ask about the relevance. I merely asked you if you agreed the referendum happened.

Yes. Remain won in 2014.

Do you think Scotland will vote to remain in the UK the next time the question is asked?

[youreavinalaff]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes. Remain won in 2014.

Do you think Scotland will vote to remain in the UK the next time the question is asked?

I don't know. If I did then I would place a bet.

 

I think, the same as before, it will be a close thing.

 

A lot will ride upon the outcome of the current issues facing Nicola Sturgeon and who, if need be, replaces her.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

The inability to answer straight questions. Seems to be a common factor when Scottish nationalists are asked about events of 2104.

 

I did not ask about the relevance. I merely asked you if you agreed the referendum happened.

I’m not a Scottish nationalist or Scottish. 
 

2014 is irrelevant in the current situation. 

[youreavinalaff]

12 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I’m not a Scottish nationalist or Scottish. 
 

2014 is irrelevant in the current situation. 

I didn't say it was. You didn't answer my simple question.  

 

You can't change history, however relevant or irrelevant you believe it is.

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I didn't say it was. You didn't answer my simple question.  

 

You can't change history, however relevant or irrelevant you believe it is.

Hmm, you mention something in a post where you quote me, but doesn’t apply to me...there’s a puzzler. 
 

Where did I say I wanted to change history?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Bluespunk

[youreavinalaff]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Where did I say I wanted to change history?

Change, deny, ignore, pretend it never happened, avoid taking about it or acknowledging it. All the same really.

 

But hey, I'm a fair person.I'll give you another chance. Was there an independence referendum in Scotland in 2014 and was the result "remain in UK"?

Edited March 21, 2021 by youreavinalaff

[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Change, deny, ignore, pretend it never happened, avoid taking about it or acknowledging it. All the same really.

 

But hey, I'm a fair person.I'll give you another chance. Was there an independence referendum in Scotland in 2014 and was the result "remain in UK"?

I have denied, changed and ignored nothing but as I had have said 2014 is irrelevant in the current situation. 
 

Since brexit has dragged Scotland out of the EU, they should be allowed an opportunity to seek independence from the uk. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Bluespunk

[Yahooka]

On 3/12/2021 at 12:32 AM, RuamRudy said:

Forget the Spanish red herring, give us your take on the economy. 

Your economy will go t#¤s up without the moneyflow from London and with that economy you wouldn`t even be eligible for EU membership now.

[Yahooka]

On 3/11/2021 at 4:41 PM, Rookiescot said:

Way out of date. Spain has said on several occasions it would not veto a Scotland entry to the EU.

Google it.

That was before Catalonia started the movement for independence .And if Partido Popular comes in goverment in Spain again you can give up the dream of an EU membership.

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, Yahooka said:

Your economy will go t#¤s up without the moneyflow from London and with that economy you wouldn`t even be eligible for EU membership now.

That's really just a prejudiced, fact-free supposition rather than anything I can respond to meaningfully, I am afraid. 

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, Yahooka said:

That was before Catalonia started the movement for independence .And if Partido Popular comes in goverment in Spain again you can give up the dream of an EU membership.

 

The Catalan independence movement started in the 19th century, whereas as recently as 2018, the Spanish government has provided assurances that they would not oppose Scotland joining the EU. 

They seem to have stopped reflecting on it recently, probably because they are as bored as we are with the ridiculous notion that desperate britnats keep rehashing. 

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, Yahooka said:

That was before Catalonia started the movement for independence .And if Partido Popular comes in goverment in Spain again you can give up the dream of an EU membership.

 

Debunked more times than I care to remember.