Would you consider Portugal?

[Destiny1990]

6 hours ago, Gabriel1 said:

Thanks for the comprehensive response.  Much appreciated.  Watched the video and it was pretty good.  I have seen that source before, and they do a pretty good job.  I liked you comments of Columbia, and was surprised by the cities you mentioned.  I had never heard of them.  Will dig deeper on them.  Everyone seem to be pushing Medellin. but for me air pollution not acceptable. I will share with you that when researching Portugal and the number required to qualify, answers are all over the map.  The $10K bank deposit the highest I heard. When I dug deeper into that I found a women that helps people on these matters.  Her fee are really good. As for the bank account she would arrange that process for me by using a lawyer who would do the required paperwork, and use a bank manager she has a relationship with, at one of the major banks. Some reasonable fees and deal done remotely.  She comes highly recommended from the Americans & friends in Pt website.  Portugal is a little like Thailand in that many things are fluid depending on who is doing the thinking.  Also on a budget for Lisbon, I found a video, from a women I follow re Portugal, which is about her budget in Lisbon.  Basically covers what one needs to know in this time frame. On Cambodia as the wild west, I can see that.  However, the game is changing Sihanoukville the city of the sea is not finishing it's makeover funded and built by the Chinese.  It is now more a luxury destination with numerous casinos.  Nothing I know of in thailand that is at this level.  Also, Siem Reap is in the process of building or renovating 38 road.  The work is 'A" grade work.  I am amazed at the logistic ability that is being executed  for this job. Would never have thought Cambodians could work at this level.  I mountain bike on the construction sites daily and defintely have fun ducking heavy equipment at work along with massive tucks. The videos on the expected final outcome turn Siem Reap into a 'A' grade destination.  Expected project completion is end 2021.  I lived in thailand for 7 years and never saw a thai city designed to this level.  If all turn out well Siem Reap will be more like a luxury USA city, with proper on street parking,  foot paths, bicycle paths and the riverfront area vitalized to be a recreation area. Add those improvements to pub street and the massive array of good restaurants and bars and local menu restaurant and you have winning tourist draw.  To me Siem Reap has been a one pony show.  Who knows, we may to rethink leaving.  Panama and central america thoughts.  Costa Rica has never been on my radar.  I have always heard it was over priced.  Now I am hearing people who are leaving and moving to Panama claim the country is not properly structured as an economy and work visas are hard to get etc.  On the Contrary, Panama is a solid economy and well managed.  The infrastructure, according to expats are excellent for the most parts and are continuously being expanded.  Health care is raved about by expats. A new section of the international airport has been opened and Panama is the flight hub for all south America and even has more non stop flights than any country in the region including Mexico city.  Also the world's main undersea internet cables connect in Panama and passes through the canal.  This is a major reason that Panama is the main corporate headquarter location for all south america. Data, data, data drives global businesses.  In addition, On top of that, Panama has the main natural gas storage facility and distribution point for that part of the world.  Add to that special residency packages of discounts for women over 55 and men over 60. Significant discount on air tickets, restaurant meals, medical bills,  hotel rooms etc. Add to that a economy that grew 5% in 2020, and no taxes on any income from outside the country.  On food I can't comment from personal experience, but videos list the restaurant scene, bar scene, mall scene and cultural scene in PC as top notch.  Also, you are correct in that some of PC is very expensive, but there are the more outlying neighborhoods that are significantly less. By the way Panama City is the only city on the planet that include a rainforest within it boundaries. The negatives for me in the city are the lack of functional foot paths, and in parts like all cities I have heard it can be gritty.  I lived in Bangkok and loved it.  Based on my key metrics for making a decision the bright lights of Portugal begin to dim when I sober up from the Portugal allure and look at the financials.  Portugal by comparison is operating under austerity order by the EU.  That is a major drawback, and has strongly impacted the services and lives of the citizens there..  Compare 23%VAT in Portugal to 7% in Panama.  Also, the government issues you a tax number and card which is used to record all you purchases. The direct tracking of my expenses bothers me.  We have been re-looking at Portugal and not doubt it glitters, but the economics of living there for me are just hard to justify.  With the tax money saved each year in Panama I can travel to europe, and when the weather get uncomfortable fly back to Panama. Also, in Panama I can chose the exact weather I  want to live with.   I must say Portugal is like a beautiful women and the allure is hard to resist,  but when I look at the economics of living there, Portugal just does not pass the test.  Add to that, in Portugal one can have difficulties with the government offices, and I find that just too exasperating.  With all of that said, i have always been a sucker for a beautiful women, so don't count Portugal out yet.  Keep me up to date on how your process is going.  I can tell you dive deep and have the intelligence to make an optimum decision.  Sorry, maybe to long, but it is good to discuss this stuff with an intelligent human being.

Nice post but you said you have lived in Bangkok  but you can not live in Medellin because of the pollution?  ???? ????

[mr_lob]

On 4/13/2021 at 8:37 PM, Jingthing said:

So you came in there with an E.U. or U.K. passport?

Because the D7 I'm looking at for non E.U. is doable but takes a lot of work. 

We arrived in 2019, so it was UK/EU passport

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, mr_lob said:

We arrived in 2019, so it was UK/EU passport

Aha.

Of no interest to me but please tell us what impact Brexit has had on your immigration situation there if any.

[mr_lob]

54 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Aha.

Of no interest to me but please tell us what impact Brexit has had on your immigration situation there if any.

No impact at all. Our 5 year temporary residency can be renewed for the same period when it finishes. Literally 15 minutes in the local council office, friendly service, and of course no money under the table. Very refreshing! 

[swissie]

Nevermind Portugal or any other place. If contemplating to take permanent residence in any "Cheap and warm country", better do it now. This way, one might be able to secure some form of "Grandfathering-Rights".

The doors are closing. 10 years from now, Immigration-Officers will ask you "how long is your Yacht" and not how much is your state-pension.
The writing is on the wall.

[Jingthing]

29 minutes ago, swissie said:

Nevermind Portugal or any other place. If contemplating to take permanent residence in any "Cheap and warm country", better do it now. This way, one might be able to secure some form of "Grandfathering-Rights".

The doors are closing. 10 years from now, Immigration-Officers will ask you "how long is your Yacht" and not how much is your state-pension.
The writing is on the wall.

Nobody is going to be able to say that you're entirely wrong. Obviously the pandemic will change a lot in everything travel. 

[Jingthing]

On 4/15/2021 at 12:06 AM, Gabriel1 said:

Thanks for the comprehensive response.  Much appreciated.  Watched the video and it was pretty good.  I have seen that source before, and they do a pretty good job.  I liked you comments of Columbia, and was surprised by the cities you mentioned.  I had never heard of them.  Will dig deeper on them.  Everyone seem to be pushing Medellin. but for me air pollution not acceptable. I will share with you that when researching Portugal and the number required to qualify, answers are all over the map.  The $10K bank deposit the highest I heard. When I dug deeper into that I found a women that helps people on these matters.  Her fee are really good. As for the bank account she would arrange that process for me by using a lawyer who would do the required paperwork, and use a bank manager she has a relationship with, at one of the major banks. Some reasonable fees and deal done remotely.  She comes highly recommended from the Americans & friends in Pt website.  Portugal is a little like Thailand in that many things are fluid depending on who is doing the thinking.  Also on a budget for Lisbon, I found a video, from a women I follow re Portugal, which is about her budget in Lisbon.  Basically covers what one needs to know in this time frame. On Cambodia as the wild west, I can see that.  However, the game is changing Sihanoukville the city of the sea is not finishing it's makeover funded and built by the Chinese.  It is now more a luxury destination with numerous casinos.  Nothing I know of in thailand that is at this level.  Also, Siem Reap is in the process of building or renovating 38 road.  The work is 'A" grade work.  I am amazed at the logistic ability that is being executed  for this job. Would never have thought Cambodians could work at this level.  I mountain bike on the construction sites daily and defintely have fun ducking heavy equipment at work along with massive tucks. The videos on the expected final outcome turn Siem Reap into a 'A' grade destination.  Expected project completion is end 2021.  I lived in thailand for 7 years and never saw a thai city designed to this level.  If all turn out well Siem Reap will be more like a luxury USA city, with proper on street parking,  foot paths, bicycle paths and the riverfront area vitalized to be a recreation area. Add those improvements to pub street and the massive array of good restaurants and bars and local menu restaurant and you have winning tourist draw.  To me Siem Reap has been a one pony show.  Who knows, we may to rethink leaving.  Panama and central america thoughts.  Costa Rica has never been on my radar.  I have always heard it was over priced.  Now I am hearing people who are leaving and moving to Panama claim the country is not properly structured as an economy and work visas are hard to get etc.  On the Contrary, Panama is a solid economy and well managed.  The infrastructure, according to expats are excellent for the most parts and are continuously being expanded.  Health care is raved about by expats. A new section of the international airport has been opened and Panama is the flight hub for all south America and even has more non stop flights than any country in the region including Mexico city.  Also the world's main undersea internet cables connect in Panama and passes through the canal.  This is a major reason that Panama is the main corporate headquarter location for all south america. Data, data, data drives global businesses.  In addition, On top of that, Panama has the main natural gas storage facility and distribution point for that part of the world.  Add to that special residency packages of discounts for women over 55 and men over 60. Significant discount on air tickets, restaurant meals, medical bills,  hotel rooms etc. Add to that a economy that grew 5% in 2020, and no taxes on any income from outside the country.  On food I can't comment from personal experience, but videos list the restaurant scene, bar scene, mall scene and cultural scene in PC as top notch.  Also, you are correct in that some of PC is very expensive, but there are the more outlying neighborhoods that are significantly less. By the way Panama City is the only city on the planet that include a rainforest within it boundaries. The negatives for me in the city are the lack of functional foot paths, and in parts like all cities I have heard it can be gritty.  I lived in Bangkok and loved it.  Based on my key metrics for making a decision the bright lights of Portugal begin to dim when I sober up from the Portugal allure and look at the financials.  Portugal by comparison is operating under austerity order by the EU.  That is a major drawback, and has strongly impacted the services and lives of the citizens there..  Compare 23%VAT in Portugal to 7% in Panama.  Also, the government issues you a tax number and card which is used to record all you purchases. The direct tracking of my expenses bothers me.  We have been re-looking at Portugal and not doubt it glitters, but the economics of living there for me are just hard to justify.  With the tax money saved each year in Panama I can travel to europe, and when the weather get uncomfortable fly back to Panama. Also, in Panama I can chose the exact weather I  want to live with.   I must say Portugal is like a beautiful women and the allure is hard to resist,  but when I look at the economics of living there, Portugal just does not pass the test.  Add to that, in Portugal one can have difficulties with the government offices, and I find that just too exasperating.  With all of that said, i have always been a sucker for a beautiful women, so don't count Portugal out yet.  Keep me up to date on how your process is going.  I can tell you dive deep and have the intelligence to make an optimum decision.  Sorry, maybe to long, but it is good to discuss this stuff with an intelligent human being.

Yes, about Colombia like pretty much everyone else looking at it, Medellin gets most of the attention. But for a variety of reasons I've already rejected it. Part of it is expense (as I would need to go for more budget friendly options) as one can live in the Coffee Region cities or Bucaramanga for considerably less than Medellin. Of course beach types will be looking at Cartagena and San Marta but for a variety reasons the Colombian beach city options don't interest me. Not that I'm against beach cities. I still like Puerto Vallarta in Mexico though again it's a budget issue.

 

As far as Panama, I have looked into options nearby to Panama City but I haven't really seen anything that looks appealing to me. Also Panama City is both very hot AND very humid. I don't want that. I think Panama City is more for working and business type expats, not so much for retirees. As I said before I see the appeal of mild weather small town Boquette and that might be a great option for people as they get older. People generally take the bus one hour to the (very hot) city of David for shopping and hospitals, etc.

 

That's very interesting what you've reported about the upgraded development in  Siem Reap. I'd be curious to see the result of that.

 

I hadn't realized the VAT in Portugal was that high. At the end of the day, Portugal is probably a pipe dream for me as I already mentioned the budget concerns. Before that video Madeira wasn't really on my radar. That does look like a kind of paradise island. If I was like three times wealthier and could do it right, I could see doing Portugal, but I'm not. 

 

Thanks for the kind personal comment. I should say that researching other countries and visa options is a bit of a hobby which I've had for long before I moved to Thailand. In all likelihood I will stay in Thailand but I want to have my Plan B "ducks in a row" should I feel that I'm about to get forced out of here. Of course another option might be an Elite Visa here. It's not that I think Thailand is the best of all possible worlds, it obviously isn't, but my personal setup here would be hard to beat anywhere else and it represents a lot of investment that I would mostly lose if I left. I realize that for those that aren't invested that way here (or anywhere) they really can move on a dime.

 

I started this topic on Portugal not because it's likely that I will move there, but only because I discovered that I could probably swing their visa that I had previously determined would be a no go. So it seemed worth at least a second look. 

 

People interested in Portugal usually also consider Spain. Well I looked at their financial requirements again. For me, no way Jose!

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Jingthing

[Gabriel1]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, about Colombia like pretty much everyone else looking at it, Medellin gets most of the attention. But for a variety of reasons I've already rejected it. Part of it is expense (as I would need to go for more budget friendly options) as one can live in the Coffee Region cities or Bucaramanga for considerably less than Medellin. Of course beach types will be looking at Cartagena and San Marta but for a variety reasons the Colombian beach city options don't interest me. Not that I'm against beach cities. I still like Puerto Vallarta in Mexico though again it's a budget issue.

 

As far as Panama, I have looked into options nearby to Panama City but I haven't really seen anything that looks appealing to me. Also Panama City is both very hot AND very humid. I don't want that. I think Panama City is more for working and business type expats, not so much for retirees. As I said before I see the appeal of mild weather small town Boquette and that might be a great option for people as they get older. People generally take the bus one hour to the (very hot) city of David for shopping and hospitals, etc.

 

That's very interesting what you've reported about the upgraded development in  Siem Reap. I'd be curious to see the result of that.

 

I hadn't realized the VAT in Portugal was that high. At the end of the day, Portugal is probably a pipe dream for me as I already mentioned the budget concerns. Before that video Madeira wasn't really on my radar. That does look like a kind of paradise island. If I was like three times wealthier and could do it right, I could see doing Portugal, but I'm not. 

 

Thanks for the kind personal comment. I should say that researching other countries and visa options is a bit of a hobby which I've had for long before I moved to Thailand. In all likelihood I will stay in Thailand but I want to have my Plan B "ducks in a row" should I feel that I'm about to get forced out of here. Of course another option might be an Elite Visa here. It's not that I think Thailand is the best of all possible worlds, it obviously isn't, but my personal setup here would be hard to beat anywhere else and it represents a lot of investment that I would mostly lose if I left. I realize that for those that aren't invested that way here (or anywhere) they really can move on a dime.

 

I started this topic on Portugal not because it's likely that I will move there, but only because I discovered that I could probably swing their visa that I had previously determined would be a no go. So it seemed worth at least a second look. 

 

People interested in Portugal usually also consider Spain. Well I looked at their financial requirements again. For me, no way Jose!

 

 

We are pretty much in agreement across the board. For several years I have been researching optimum places to live. Like you, econ is key.  I have learned to live sanely in Cambodia and the people are really a special experience.  If one can live frugally, life here can be very inexpensive.  Panama restaurant prices in the more expat heavy areas are much higher than Cambodia.  Keep in mind Siem Reap has a great restaurant offering and the food can be quite good at any price range. Just had an exceptional Greek food experience at a restaurant owned by a Turkish fellow .  One of my best food experiences. A week before, I had a great experience at an italian restaurant, that was owned by a Turk. Seems like Greeks are known for the excellent food.  Also, I am older and the infrastructure build out is too slow for me, but over the last several years they have been building out at the speed of light.  Chinese money just pouring in. I have been looking for an upgrade. Like you I am financially driven. My anchor to Asia has been a nightmare happening re a real estate conflict in Thailand.  Second time to court just being arranged.  In the past I read a great book by an very successful Irish fellow who was sent to jail while on a quest he was pursuing re an investment issue in thailand.  He called it the scam capital of the world. My experiences echo that sentiment.  I interviewed lawyers and real estate people and they were all scammers.  The most aggressive scammers were non Thai, but Thai women are world class at separating foreigners from their money.  Nothing prepared me for my experience with a thai women.  Until last year, in many circumstances, the local courts found in favor of the women.  A new precedent was set this year by the court that granted consideration to the foreign man. The Thai women I connected to was university educated, came from a prosperous family.  However, she was a sociopath and extremely skilled in gaslighting and frog in the pot technique.  She never once blinked as she systematically slowly pushed in the knife.  Turns out according to psychology journals, her symptoms can be the result of culture mores, and is embedded from many, many past generations. In reading the history, the Chinese use these mores commonly in their dealings.  Breaking the trust is just a matter of fact without and qualms of conscience.  Keep me posted if you have any breakthroughs on a new affordable paradise.  Good communicating with you.

[Gabriel1]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, about Colombia like pretty much everyone else looking at it, Medellin gets most of the attention. But for a variety of reasons I've already rejected it. Part of it is expense (as I would need to go for more budget friendly options) as one can live in the Coffee Region cities or Bucaramanga for considerably less than Medellin. Of course beach types will be looking at Cartagena and San Marta but for a variety reasons the Colombian beach city options don't interest me. Not that I'm against beach cities. I still like Puerto Vallarta in Mexico though again it's a budget issue.

 

As far as Panama, I have looked into options nearby to Panama City but I haven't really seen anything that looks appealing to me. Also Panama City is both very hot AND very humid. I don't want that. I think Panama City is more for working and business type expats, not so much for retirees. As I said before I see the appeal of mild weather small town Boquette and that might be a great option for people as they get older. People generally take the bus one hour to the (very hot) city of David for shopping and hospitals, etc.

 

That's very interesting what you've reported about the upgraded development in  Siem Reap. I'd be curious to see the result of that.

 

I hadn't realized the VAT in Portugal was that high. At the end of the day, Portugal is probably a pipe dream for me as I already mentioned the budget concerns. Before that video Madeira wasn't really on my radar. That does look like a kind of paradise island. If I was like three times wealthier and could do it right, I could see doing Portugal, but I'm not. 

 

Thanks for the kind personal comment. I should say that researching other countries and visa options is a bit of a hobby which I've had for long before I moved to Thailand. In all likelihood I will stay in Thailand but I want to have my Plan B "ducks in a row" should I feel that I'm about to get forced out of here. Of course another option might be an Elite Visa here. It's not that I think Thailand is the best of all possible worlds, it obviously isn't, but my personal setup here would be hard to beat anywhere else and it represents a lot of investment that I would mostly lose if I left. I realize that for those that aren't invested that way here (or anywhere) they really can move on a dime.

 

I started this topic on Portugal not because it's likely that I will move there, but only because I discovered that I could probably swing their visa that I had previously determined would be a no go. So it seemed worth at least a second look. 

 

People interested in Portugal usually also consider Spain. Well I looked at their financial requirements again. For me, no way Jose!

 

 

I will most likely go to Panama to get my life time residency as my plan B.  I will need a safe base in case the worst case happen in world econ or a China USA war breaks out.  Also, I do deep dives into global economics and all the evidence indicates the USA is on the fast track to being a failed state.  The market economy is not thriving, because we have pretty much destroyed our small banks which are the key to a healthy market economy.  Both China and Germany, which are #1 and #3 in exports have a plethora of small banks to keep the market economy going.  The payoff is increasing salaries and good ongoing growth and employment.  Most americans confuse the financial economy, wall street, with a market economy, which consists of consumption and production. 

[Gabriel1]

16 hours ago, swissie said:

Nevermind Portugal or any other place. If contemplating to take permanent residence in any "Cheap and warm country", better do it now. This way, one might be able to secure some form of "Grandfathering-Rights".

The doors are closing. 10 years from now, Immigration-Officers will ask you "how long is your Yacht" and not how much is your state-pension.
The writing is on the wall.

Well said.  Even Portugal has raised cost of the golden visa plan.  For us retirees, the have canceled the 10 year zero tax program.  Just what I need as my capacity for anything wains and my cost to keep living rises.  Thank you Portugal for your magnificent welcome and good treatment.

[Tagged]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

. Before that video Madeira wasn't really on my radar. That does look like a kind of paradise island. 

 

 

 

Azores is beautiful as well,  

[spidermike007]

It would sure be nice to be around some real culture. Great live music, dance, theater, museums, and the like.

Great wine at fair prices.

Drivers with some skill.

Police who are concerned with traffic safety.

A gorgeous language.

Easy to move around Europe.

Air that will not kill you.

A government that is not moving backwards into oblivion, with no end in sight. Those are attractive qualities. 

 

I also hear land in rural areas, with good title is inexpensive, unlike here. Plus no xenophobic restrictions on ownership. And banks will even lend to foreigners. Overall, it sounds infinitely more civilized. 

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

It would sure be nice to be around some real culture. Great live music, dance, theater, museums, and the like.

Great wine at fair prices.

Drivers with some skill.

Police who are concerned with traffic safety.

A gorgeous language.

Easy to move around Europe.

Air that will not kill you.

A government that is not moving backwards into oblivion, with no end in sight. Those are attractive qualities. 

 

I also hear land in rural areas, with good title is inexpensive, unlike here. Plus no xenophobic restrictions on ownership. And banks will even lend to foreigners. Overall, it sounds infinitely more civilized. 

Yes I agree except as I've said before that for some reason I find European Portuguese grating. I guess it's like cilantro. Some people love it and others find it disgusting. But of course all that good stuff comes at a price. Also if you did live in a rural area you wouldn't exactly be close to highbrow cultural offerings. 

 

Perhaps interestingly your list is to some degree what attracts me to a place like Queretaro Mexico over options such as Filipino cities.

 

But obviously not everything on that list. 

 

More specifically in Queretaro you could find

 

Rich Mexican cultural traditions which mix both Spanish colonial and indigenous

 

Live music mostly Latin but classical too

 

I assume theater in Spanish 

 

Good museums but would need to go to Mexico City for a higher international level (Queretaro being a few hours away from one of the greatest cities in the world).

 

One of the greatest food cultures in the world. So much more than tacos.

 

Surprising to.most, the area is in the middle of wine country in Mexico.

So good local wine at a good local price. 

 

Year round spring like weather arguably not readily available in Portugal.

 

A gorgeous language in my opinion and easier to learn than Portuguese

 

Easy to get around Mexico by bus or air and other American destinations as well

 

No problem with owning real estate except near beach and borders

 

Paths to permanent residence or citizenship similar time frame to Portugal

 

OK yes there is police corruption and wild driving habits. Low to moderate levels of air pollution.

 

https://www.foodandwine.com/wine-regions/queretaro-mexico-wine-region

Edited April 17, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

On 4/16/2021 at 4:37 PM, Gabriel1 said:

We are pretty much in agreement across the board. For several years I have been researching optimum places to live. Like you, econ is key.  I have learned to live sanely in Cambodia and the people are really a special experience.  If one can live frugally, life here can be very inexpensive.  Panama restaurant prices in the more expat heavy areas are much higher than Cambodia.  Keep in mind Siem Reap has a great restaurant offering and the food can be quite good at any price range. Just had an exceptional Greek food experience at a restaurant owned by a Turkish fellow .  One of my best food experiences. A week before, I had a great experience at an italian restaurant, that was owned by a Turk. Seems like Greeks are known for the excellent food.  Also, I am older and the infrastructure build out is too slow for me, but over the last several years they have been building out at the speed of light.  Chinese money just pouring in. I have been looking for an upgrade. Like you I am financially driven. My anchor to Asia has been a nightmare happening re a real estate conflict in Thailand.  Second time to court just being arranged.  In the past I read a great book by an very successful Irish fellow who was sent to jail while on a quest he was pursuing re an investment issue in thailand.  He called it the scam capital of the world. My experiences echo that sentiment.  I interviewed lawyers and real estate people and they were all scammers.  The most aggressive scammers were non Thai, but Thai women are world class at separating foreigners from their money.  Nothing prepared me for my experience with a thai women.  Until last year, in many circumstances, the local courts found in favor of the women.  A new precedent was set this year by the court that granted consideration to the foreign man. The Thai women I connected to was university educated, came from a prosperous family.  However, she was a sociopath and extremely skilled in gaslighting and frog in the pot technique.  She never once blinked as she systematically slowly pushed in the knife.  Turns out according to psychology journals, her symptoms can be the result of culture mores, and is embedded from many, many past generations. In reading the history, the Chinese use these mores commonly in their dealings.  Breaking the trust is just a matter of fact without and qualms of conscience.  Keep me posted if you have any breakthroughs on a new affordable paradise.  Good communicating with you.

Well it sounds like you've had some intense personal experiences in Asean.

Checking out Siem Reap definitely sounds interesting. 

I'd be surprised if I come up with many new good and low cost destination discoveries for two reasons.

First of all I've been  researching this for many years.

Secondly my approach to research is a little different than most.

The releastic possibility of getting a long term visa is my top priority. Based on my own personal situation  I go into the details of that. Possible but very hard definitely downgrades entire countries. Many people don't realize this can be complicated if moving from Thailand,  a non apostle treaty country. Destination countries often require fresh documents from Thailand for long processes. Not good.

So for me there are only a very few countries in the world that survive my personal screening criteria. 

That said, I do continue to learn about interesting specific new to me destinations in my small list of countries.

Specifically Mexico and the Philippines. 

As far as Colombia I doubt I will learn of new ideas there though I should mention Ibague (music capitol of Colombia) as a possibility too. Technically it's in the coffee region too going towards Bogota. However its hotter than the three coffee region cities previously mentioned but may be good for some that like hotter and more off the beaten track.

[Jingthing]

On 4/16/2021 at 4:50 PM, Gabriel1 said:

I will most likely go to Panama to get my life time residency as my plan B.  I will need a safe base in case the worst case happen in world econ or a China USA war breaks out.  Also, I do deep dives into global economics and all the evidence indicates the USA is on the fast track to being a failed state.  The market economy is not thriving, because we have pretty much destroyed our small banks which are the key to a healthy market economy.  Both China and Germany, which are #1 and #3 in exports have a plethora of small banks to keep the market economy going.  The payoff is increasing salaries and good ongoing growth and employment.  Most americans confuse the financial economy, wall street, with a market economy, which consists of consumption and production. 

I can certainly understand the appeal of Panama as a Plan B alternative residency country. I completely agree that on paper Panama had lots of advantages. I have not entirely ruled it out myself. 

 

However, as you seem have similar budget constraints as I do I wonder exactly WHERE you might live in Panama. 

 

Personally I've concluded that Boquette might be my only acceptable choice. You have mentioned that you like very hot weather. In that case perhaps the city of David might work for you. It also has good access to beaches. Haven't checked the living costs in David lately but definitively much lower than Panama city. 

 

There's another x factor about Central America vs. South America. I've only been to Costa Rica and also numerous places in South America so this is based on limited personal experience of Central America. But I've read multiple sources observing that in general South America has a more solid feel, more overall development than Central America. 

Of course Mexico being in North America is a special case.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

On 4/16/2021 at 4:37 PM, Gabriel1 said:

...

Keep me posted if you have any breakthroughs on a new affordable paradise. 

....

 

Well this isn't new or original at all and you might have zero interest in Mexico but I want to mention Merida because you mentioned that you prefer hot weather. Merida would be my top pick there if not for the weather. 

 

Why?

 

Very hot and humid weather if you like that

 

About 30 miles to nice beach areas

 

Considered the safest city in Mexico

 

Surprisingly low rents in modern housing available 

 

Charming architecture 

 

Modern infrastructure, fancy shopping malls quality hospitals 

 

Great restaurant scene with Yucatan, Mexican, and international food.

 

Lots of expats if you like that

 

Access to ancient pyramids and natural wonders like cenotes.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote

 

NOT close to Cancun which I consider a plus.

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Jingthing

[spidermike007]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:33 AM, Jingthing said:

Yes I agree except as I've said before that for some reason I find European Portuguese grating. I guess it's like cilantro. Some people love it and others find it disgusting. But of course all that good stuff comes at a price. Also if you did live in a rural area you wouldn't exactly be close to highbrow cultural offerings. 

 

Perhaps interestingly your list is to some degree what attracts me to a place like Queretaro Mexico over options such as Filipino cities.

 

But obviously not everything on that list. 

 

More specifically in Queretaro you could find

 

Rich Mexican cultural traditions which mix both Spanish colonial and indigenous

 

Live music mostly Latin but classical too

 

I assume theater in Spanish 

 

Good museums but would need to go to Mexico City for a higher international level (Queretaro being a few hours away from one of the greatest cities in the world).

 

One of the greatest food cultures in the world. So much more than tacos.

 

Surprising to.most, the area is in the middle of wine country in Mexico.

So good local wine at a good local price. 

 

Year round spring like weather arguably not readily available in Portugal.

 

A gorgeous language in my opinion and easier to learn than Portuguese

 

Easy to get around Mexico by bus or air and other American destinations as well

 

No problem with owning real estate except near beach and borders

 

Paths to permanent residence or citizenship similar time frame to Portugal

 

OK yes there is police corruption and wild driving habits. Low to moderate levels of air pollution.

 

https://www.foodandwine.com/wine-regions/queretaro-mexico-wine-region

I love Mexico and its people. I might be there, if it were not for the ridiculous security situation, much the same as in the PI, but for different reasons. I agree about the culture. Mexico is arguably the seat of Latin culture, which is very deep and rich. 

 

And the Mexican government, in comparison to here, is jam packed full of genius minds, competency, a lack of fear of foreigners, and the unknown, and it is far easier to deal with the locals. And the language. I wish I could say I had an affection for the Thai language, but I do not. On any level. The people are another story. I love most Thai people. 

[Tagged]

38 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Well this isn't new or original at all and you might have zero interest in Mexico but I want to mention Merida because you mentioned that you prefer hot weather. Merida would be my top pick there if not for the weather. 

 

Why?

 

Very hot and humid weather if you like that

 

About 30 miles to nice beach areas

 

Considered the safest city in Mexico

 

Surprisingly low rents in modern housing available 

 

Charming architecture 

 

Modern infrastructure, fancy shopping malls quality hospitals 

 

Great restaurant scene with Yucatan, Mexican, and international food.

 

Lots of expats if you like that

 

Access to ancient pyramids and natural wonders like cenotes.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote

 

NOT close to Cancun which I consider a plus.

 

Merida is that typical South American style with armed guards where the expats living, and restricted areas you can walk safe after sunset? Thats pretty much how I experienced Brasil. At least those cities and tourist destinations I visited. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Tagged

[Jingthing]

23 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Merida is that typical South American style with armed guards where the expats living, and restricted areas you can walk safe after sunset? Thats pretty much how I experienced Brasil. At least those cities and tourist destinations I visited. 

No.  It's not Brazil or South America.

 

Expats including lots of gay people have bought up a lot of the older central housing and renovated. So it can be expensive depending on the location but its a decent sized city with a lot of choices. 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Jingthing

[Kurtf]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:29 AM, nickmondo said:

your having a laugh mate

What is hard about the visas here in Thailand

I can tell you for sure, 100%, a Visa in Thailand is a lot easier than in Portugal

Unless you are a EU citizen of course, when you dont need a visa in Portugal

Are you required in Portugal to report every 90 days?

[Tagged]

36 minutes ago, Kurtf said:

Are you required in Portugal to report every 90 days?

90 days is hard? Where I live, it is just a pass through the office before shopping in a 3 Week window. Havent bother to check if I can do it online yet. And I live 86km away from my immigration office. I really do not see the hassel to walk in, and get the stamp every 90. day. 

 

However I have done the schengen family reunion and turist visa application for thai citizen, and it is far from hassel free. For retire visa, I have no clue, but I do not believe it will be any easier than Thailand. So far with help from my gf, everything have been easy from bying bikes and car, visa, 90 day, sell motorbike, yellow book, 

 

but I really do not see they problem as long you have the papers they ask for. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Tagged

[LivinLOS]

14 hours ago, Tagged said:

However I have done the schengen family reunion and turist visa application for thai citizen, and it is far from hassel free

Doing UK tourist and Schengen tourist visas these days is only a little step harder than doing similar length stay visas for Thailand (in fact you cant get a 6 month single stay visa for Thailand !!) My wife currently has a 5 year UK tourist visa to come and go as she pleases, no reporting, no TM30's, etc etc.. And if COVID backs off shes eligible for a multi year Schengen one now also. 

But its not just the initial entry thats the consideration, its how it works over time.. Wealthy europe, with all of its freebies, handouts, and healthcare puts up some slight barriers of entry, once there the comparison is vastly in favor of of the west.. Staying, ongoing, and naturalization are all merely processes.. Your left almost entirely alone once there no ongoing hassle. 

 

[Gabriel1]

On 4/18/2021 at 12:11 PM, Jingthing said:

I can certainly understand the appeal of Panama as a Plan B alternative residency country. I completely agree that on paper Panama had lots of advantages. I have not entirely ruled it out myself. 

 

However, as you seem have similar budget constraints as I do I wonder exactly WHERE you might live in Panama. 

 

Personally I've concluded that Boquette might be my only acceptable choice. You have mentioned that you like very hot weather. In that case perhaps the city of David might work for you. It also has good access to beaches. Haven't checked the living costs in David lately but definitively much lower than Panama city. 

 

There's another x factor about Central America vs. South America. I've only been to Costa Rica and also numerous places in South America so this is based on limited personal experience of Central America. But I've read multiple sources observing that in general South America has a more solid feel, more overall development than Central America. 

Of course Mexico being in North America is a special case.

On South America, pretty much everything I read points towards corruption as the core of their ongoing economic failure.  Also, I am not a fan of theft and sometime violent behaviors against foreigners.    I checked out Uruguay, and in the end did not like the cost structure nor the climate.  Chile is usually along with Uruguay sited for top economies. However, Panama is at the top level also.  From all my research and contact via blogs with expats their the seem to be very happy.  The only sign of corruption I have found is the traffic cops will try and fleece foreigners.  As to where to live, I have researched the housing websites and found a lot of property to be affordable.  Housing for middle class panamanians range from the $80K to the $120K range and they sell out.  That baselines what one may expect outside of the tourist zones, which of course in their ignorance Americans are willing to pay higher prices, because they think the prices are low.  Remember, Panamanians occupy the whole country, and it seems there are a lot of really nice areas to live in, so finding a cost effective solution seems to be possible.  If I am able to get any money out of the sale of my home in Bangkok, I will consider buying a home in Panama and the highest cost item on my budget will go to zero.  Social security should be enough for everything else.  First, a trip and some time spent their will be necessary. Related to the rest of central america, I am completely uninterested in any other country in central america.  Too much bad news on those countries.

[Gabriel1]

On 4/18/2021 at 4:01 PM, Jingthing said:

Well this isn't new or original at all and you might have zero interest in Mexico but I want to mention Merida because you mentioned that you prefer hot weather. Merida would be my top pick there if not for the weather. 

 

Why?

 

Very hot and humid weather if you like that

 

About 30 miles to nice beach areas

 

Considered the safest city in Mexico

 

Surprisingly low rents in modern housing available 

 

Charming architecture 

 

Modern infrastructure, fancy shopping malls quality hospitals 

 

Great restaurant scene with Yucatan, Mexican, and international food.

 

Lots of expats if you like that

 

Access to ancient pyramids and natural wonders like cenotes.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote

 

NOT close to Cancun which I consider a plus.

 

I posted on Marida else, but wanted to let you know about costs in Mexico and also income qualification for long term visa there.  Mexica requires $1900 per month for a long term visa.  The average american monthly social security check is around $1500, so Mexico has filtered out American retirees.  The link below will give you all the info you need plus a work around on the $1900 income qualifier.  You mention humidity and heat and being your filters, but you seem happy living in Thailand a country that presents those same conditions. How do you deal with those conditions in Thailand?    

 

[Gabriel1]

On 4/16/2021 at 1:20 AM, Jingthing said:

Yes, about Colombia like pretty much everyone else looking at it, Medellin gets most of the attention. But for a variety of reasons I've already rejected it. Part of it is expense (as I would need to go for more budget friendly options) as one can live in the Coffee Region cities or Bucaramanga for considerably less than Medellin. Of course beach types will be looking at Cartagena and San Marta but for a variety reasons the Colombian beach city options don't interest me. Not that I'm against beach cities. I still like Puerto Vallarta in Mexico though again it's a budget issue.

 

As far as Panama, I have looked into options nearby to Panama City but I haven't really seen anything that looks appealing to me. Also Panama City is both very hot AND very humid. I don't want that. I think Panama City is more for working and business type expats, not so much for retirees. As I said before I see the appeal of mild weather small town Boquette and that might be a great option for people as they get older. People generally take the bus one hour to the (very hot) city of David for shopping and hospitals, etc.

 

That's very interesting what you've reported about the upgraded development in  Siem Reap. I'd be curious to see the result of that.

 

I hadn't realized the VAT in Portugal was that high. At the end of the day, Portugal is probably a pipe dream for me as I already mentioned the budget concerns. Before that video Madeira wasn't really on my radar. That does look like a kind of paradise island. If I was like three times wealthier and could do it right, I could see doing Portugal, but I'm not. 

 

Thanks for the kind personal comment. I should say that researching other countries and visa options is a bit of a hobby which I've had for long before I moved to Thailand. In all likelihood I will stay in Thailand but I want to have my Plan B "ducks in a row" should I feel that I'm about to get forced out of here. Of course another option might be an Elite Visa here. It's not that I think Thailand is the best of all possible worlds, it obviously isn't, but my personal setup here would be hard to beat anywhere else and it represents a lot of investment that I would mostly lose if I left. I realize that for those that aren't invested that way here (or anywhere) they really can move on a dime.

 

I started this topic on Portugal not because it's likely that I will move there, but only because I discovered that I could probably swing their visa that I had previously determined would be a no go. So it seemed worth at least a second look. 

 

People interested in Portugal usually also consider Spain. Well I looked at their financial requirements again. For me, no way Jose!

 

 

This is the main reason I will not move to Portugal.  The weather sucks, wet and cold, for a lot of the year.  Here is a video from 2 different expats living their and it will sober up the most smitten of Portugal fans.   It simply went directly to the conclusion I arrived at from my research.  I will still most likely give it a look, but with a keen eye.   

 

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Gabriel1 said:

I posted on Marida else, but wanted to let you know about costs in Mexico and also income qualification for long term visa there.  Mexica requires $1900 per month for a long term visa.  The average american monthly social security check is around $1500, so Mexico has filtered out American retirees.  The link below will give you all the info you need plus a work around on the $1900 income qualifier.  You mention humidity and heat and being your filters, but you seem happy living in Thailand a country that presents those same conditions. How do you deal with those conditions in Thailand?    

 

Yes I am well aware of the Mexico visa situation. While I can't qualify with pension there is the show money option which I could definitely easily do. There is a path towards permanent residence or citizenship.

 

I live in Jomtien. It gets hot but usually not very humid. I have cool breezes in my condo. I have no need for aircon.

 

I have experienced living in extreme heat mixed with extreme humidity seasonally. I truly hate it!

 

I also hate being forced to run aircon all the time.

[Jingthing]

39 minutes ago, Gabriel1 said:

On South America, pretty much everything I read points towards corruption as the core of their ongoing economic failure.  Also, I am not a fan of theft and sometime violent behaviors against foreigners.    I checked out Uruguay, and in the end did not like the cost structure nor the climate.  Chile is usually along with Uruguay sited for top economies. However, Panama is at the top level also.  From all my research and contact via blogs with expats their the seem to be very happy.  The only sign of corruption I have found is the traffic cops will try and fleece foreigners.  As to where to live, I have researched the housing websites and found a lot of property to be affordable.  Housing for middle class panamanians range from the $80K to the $120K range and they sell out.  That baselines what one may expect outside of the tourist zones, which of course in their ignorance Americans are willing to pay higher prices, because they think the prices are low.  Remember, Panamanians occupy the whole country, and it seems there are a lot of really nice areas to live in, so finding a cost effective solution seems to be possible.  If I am able to get any money out of the sale of my home in Bangkok, I will consider buying a home in Panama and the highest cost item on my budget will go to zero.  Social security should be enough for everything else.  First, a trip and some time spent their will be necessary. Related to the rest of central america, I am completely uninterested in any other country in central america.  Too much bad news on those countries.

I don't really agree with you about South America. It's not a monolith. It's very location dependent even within the countries. But I think its good that so many people are afraid of it as that prevents some of the good places being oversaturated with corrupting expats.

 

I'm still skeptical about locations in Panama. Probably I haven't looked as hard as you but other than Boquette it seems it would be in more backwater areas without many of the amenities that I happen to like and also usually a car would be needed. But good luck and if you can be more specific about what you ever find there please post about it.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Jingthing

[Gabriel1]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes I am well aware of the Mexico visa situation. While I can't qualify with pension there is the show money option which I could definitely easily do. There is a path towards permanent residence or citizenship.

 

I live in Jomtien. It gets hot but usually not very humid. I have cool breezes in my condo. I have no need for aircon.

 

I have experienced living in extreme heat mixed with extreme humidity seasonally. I truly hate it!

 

I also hate being forced to run aircon all the time.

Thanks for the update.  Can you point me to where I could find the show the money option.  Somewhere, I heard that Mexico will tax residents, as do most countries.  Another plus in my book for Panama, no tax on money made outside of Panama.

 

How did the weather compare in Costa Rica.  So far in all my explorations re Panama, no one has complained about the weather.  I have to see if I can push that point a bit harder.  We are no AC club members.  I lived in Pennsylvania as a child.  In the summer, it was impossible to get dry after a shower.  Humidity 100% and sucked.  Thanks for your comments.

[Jingthing]

26 minutes ago, Gabriel1 said:

Thanks for the update.  Can you point me to where I could find the show the money option.  Somewhere, I heard that Mexico will tax residents, as do most countries.  Another plus in my book for Panama, no tax on money made outside of Panama.

 

How did the weather compare in Costa Rica.  So far in all my explorations re Panama, no one has complained about the weather.  I have to see if I can push that point a bit harder.  We are no AC club members.  I lived in Pennsylvania as a child.  In the summer, it was impossible to get dry after a shower.  Humidity 100% and sucked.  Thanks for your comments.

Panama weather is location dependent. 

Panama City is very hot and humid.

David is very hot not sure how humid.

Boquette is one of those year round spring like weather places.

Internal highlands are cooler but fit people wanting to live like a local more.

 

https://www.talesmag.com/real-post-report-city-question-answers/76/46

 

Mexico stuff later.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Jingthing

[Neeranam]

Last year I read a great book called the High Mountains of Portugal, when a North American moved to Portugal with a chimpanzee. 

I think jing Thing has been reading that.