2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Why not mandate it?

 

After all, it worked with wearing crash helmets on motorcycles and seatbelts in cars...

 

We are the guinea pigs for these new vaccines. Everyone should be able to make their own informed decision on whether they want one or not. There are obviosly no studies on the long-term side effects of these vaccines and forcing people to take them would be a violation of basic human rights. 

However, encouragement and financial incentives is a good idea. I'm definitely taking a vaccine as soon as it becomes available. 

20 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

Basic human rights anyone ? Your body is yours and doesn't belong to any government. Making the question here already show total and utter ignorance about international law and human rights. 

 

Article 3 Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

The principle of bodily integrity sums up the right of each human being, including children, to autonomy and self-determination over their own body. It considers an unconsented physical intrusion as a human rights violation.

 

Maybe the staff of Thaivisa should read up on basic knowledge a little bit, just a suggestion. 

Yes, a violation of a very basic human right - in my home country, The Netherlands, this would be an infraction of the constitution. 

22 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

completely missing the point that other people cannot catch a serious illness if someone eat’s junk food etc...  

 

So, governments most definitely do mandate laws to prevent people from harming others. 

 

Those who don't get the vaccine can only harm others who also didn't get the vaccine, since those vaccinated are by definition protected.

 

Why does it matter so much to the latters if a bunch of idiots (from their point of view) harm each others?

 

In the near future, you will live in a world of wise/vaccinated people, looking upon a rapidly disappearing group of brainless covidiots.

 

Survival of the fittest in all its splendor.

 

Or maybe not...

 

17 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

Basic human rights anyone ? Your body is yours and doesn't belong to any government. Making the question here already show total and utter ignorance about international law and human rights. 

 

Article 3 Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

The principle of bodily integrity sums up the right of each human being, including children, to autonomy and self-determination over their own body. It considers an unconsented physical intrusion as a human rights violation.

 

Maybe the staff of Thaivisa should read up on basic knowledge a little bit, just a suggestion. 

But it does NOT give the right of that person to endanger other persons lives.

 

If you refuse vaccination, and then infect 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 or even 50 or more, then YOU are affecting their rights NOT to get Covid.

Anyone on retirement extension who isn't vaccinated should be forced to leave Thailand immediately. 

5 minutes ago, bermondburi said:

Except that they don't. All studies are showing vastly reduced transmission by the vaccinated, up to two thirds.

Source links to studies?

It's wrong to mandate it. People should be able to make their own choice.

 

But, both the private/public sector should be allowed to restrict activities based on if people are vaccinated or not.

 

Companies should be allowed to discriminate against unvaccinated people, public transport should allow forbidding unvaccinated people, etc.

 

If people are happy to live in a bubble then they should be allowed to go unvaccinated.

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But it does NOT give the right of that person to endanger other persons lives.

If you refuse vaccination, and then infect 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 or even 50 or more, then YOU are affecting their rights NOT to get Covid.

 

O dear, it doesn't work like this at all. Read basic human rights, understand mathematics and statistics, then come back.

1 minute ago, connda said:

Source links to studies?

Jeez. This forum used to be fun. I'm not writing for the BMJ, and I can't be bothered to go around finding links to everything I've read. 

 

Just Google it yourself.

2 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

 

Again, it seems that no one here is aware of basic human rights, which is very disappointing. Furthermore getting covid is only a chance, and a very small one at that. Getting a vaccine however is a 100% chance.... Math is also a real problem for many people. 

 

3000 cases per day, chance of getting covid during an entire year : 1 in 64. Chance of dying from covid if you are under 70 : 1 in 500. Actual chance of death 64x500= 1 in 32.000. Chance of severe and possibly lethal side effects of Astrazenica about 1 in 100.000. You still sure ? 

 

Agree with Basic human rights - no one should be forced to take a vaccine. My believe is that people should be educated and encouraged to take ‘all proven vaccines’...  the grey area presents itself during this pandemic when 'whole-scale’ vaccination is required to overcome the spread, transmission, antigenic-drift (variants).

 

Agree with your Math is also a real problem for many people, but so it appears is basic common sense and logic, your workings are flawed.

 

Without a vaccinated population the world cannot get back to normal, the spread of Covid-19 continues and the probability of a LOT more people catching Covid-19 increases vastly.

 

 

2 minutes ago, bermondburi said:

Jeez. This forum used to be fun. I'm not writing for the BMJ, and I can't be bothered to go around finding links to everything I've read. 

 

Just Google it yourself.

Just to make some people happy. From 3 weeks ago.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half

11 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Those who don't get the vaccine can only harm others who also didn't get the vaccine, since those vaccinated are by definition protected.

 

Why does it matter so much to the latters if a bunch of idiots (from their point of view) harm each others?

 

In the near future, you will live in a world of wise/vaccinated people, looking upon a rapidly disappearing group of brainless covidiots.

 

Survival of the fittest in all its splendor.

 

Or maybe not...

 

 

Because there are people who cannot take the vaccine (i.e. through allergies etc) who still need to be protected from the selfish anti-vax idiots.

3 minutes ago, connda said:

Source links to studies?

 

First is a study on it, the second is further discussion.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.02.21250630v1

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13584-021-00441-5

 

Note Israel used an mRNA vaccine. Thailand is using Sinovac and AZ which are inactivated/weakened virus-based vaccines. It can't be inferred that the benefits translate.

29 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

I'm out on a limb here. I support a mandate, but not one with harsh penalties. 

 

Here is what authorities are doing to people in Phuket who refuse to wear a mask. For the vaccination, maybe they can up it to making the reluctant run a marathon.  

 

Quote

The people forced to exercise were at a Covid-19 checkpoint in the Rawai subdistrict, where the Chalong Police along with local medical workers were checking people yesterday. The checkpoint was set up in an effort to push one hundred per cent mask compliance to stop the spread of Covid-19 on Phuket.

https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/covid-19-mask-violators-in-phuket-forced-to-exercise

8 minutes ago, wprime said:

If people are happy to live in a bubble then they should be allowed to go unvaccinated.

 

I agree... If people don’t wish to be vaccinated that should be fine. But they should not be able to expose the rest of society and those who are unable to be vaccinated (due to medical reasons). 

 

So, if people don’t wish to be vaccinated, they can go and live in their own isolated bubble !

8 hours ago, Scott said:

do you believe that the Thai government should mandate vaccines

 

Well they can of course do as they please....as always but.......If they want to mandate a drug be injected they should also assume any liabilty should things go pear shaped

I have a cousin in Thailand a young (35) year old Thai National

She contracted Polio from a hot batch of Polio Vaccines in Thailand when she was an infant.

The Queen has a program that took care of her all her life financially & her schooling also

 

The current Thai govt should assume the same responsibility if they go down this road

 

27 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

n the future we will see Vaccine Lawsuits:

- Traveler's suing an Airline for being refused travel without a Covid-19 Vaccination

- Employee’s suing their company for being forced to take a Vaccine or face dismissal

- Interviewees suing a company for being forced to disclose their vaccine history

there is another side to that that will also fill up the courts.

- travellers suing for being infected whilst travelling with unvaccinated travellers

- Employees suing for being infected by unvaccinated other employees

- Interviewees suing for getting infected by unvaccinated people doing the interviews.

 

Either way you cannot win and the courts will be full for the next 50 years

Just now, meechai said:

 

Well they can of course do as they please....as always but.......If they want to mandate a drug be injected they should also assume any liabilty should things go pear shaped

I have a cousin in Thailand a young (35) year old Thai National

She contracted Polio from a hot batch of Polio Vaccines in Thailand when she was an infant.

The Queen has a program that took care of her all her life financially & her schooling also

 

The current Thai govt should assume the same responsibility if they go down this road

 

Agreed....   

 

One of the major issue the Anti-Vaxxers always bring up is the ‘lack of accountability’ from the Pharmaceutical companies and governments. 

 

Even without ‘forced’ vaccinations Pharmaceutical companies and governments should be held accountable IF anyone were to suffer long term detrimental issues as a direct result of taking a vaccine. 

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Totally incorrect. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for letting us know once again, that you know it all better than the scientists.

 

https://www.livescience.com/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-college-trial-transmission.html

 

While these studies provide clues that vaccinated people may be less likely to spread the virus, because they appear to avoid infection overall, they cannot confirm this conclusively. The new college campus study, called PreventCOVIDU, will attempt to directly answer the question through contact tracing — where COVID-19 infections are tracked among vaccinated people, unvaccinated people and a large group of their close contacts.

 

Results from the study are expected "later this year," according to the study website. 

I would assume that this IDIOT bought his way into his position and knows nothing about the Nuremberg Code and Human Rights 

1 minute ago, Susco said:

 

Thanks for letting us know once again, that you know it all better than the scientists.

 

https://www.livescience.com/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-college-trial-transmission.html

 

While these studies provide clues that vaccinated people may be less likely to spread the virus, because they appear to avoid infection overall, they cannot confirm this conclusively. The new college campus study, called PreventCOVIDU, will attempt to directly answer the question through contact tracing — where COVID-19 infections are tracked among vaccinated people, unvaccinated people and a large group of their close contacts.

 

Results from the study are expected "later this year," according to the study website. 

 

 

[While these studies provide clues that vaccinated people may be less likely to spread the virus, because they appear to avoid infection overall, they cannot confirm this conclusively.]

 

Meanwhile the cdc writes: [

• A growing body of evidence suggests that fully vaccinated people are less likely to have asymptomatic infection and potentially less likely to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others. However, further investigation is ongoing.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

 

 

Its becoming more clear that a vaccinated individual has less potential to transmit SARS-CoV-2.

 

 

BUT... IF YOU wish to ignore the science and continue to believe that vaccinated individuals present the same risk of transmission as a non-vaccinated individual then its obvious that you cannot be educated. 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, bermondburi said:

Anyone on retirement extension who isn't vaccinated should be forced to leave Thailand immediately. 

What will they be vaccinated with?

 

You cannot vaccinate people if there are no vaccines to jab them with. Why should they be punished for something beyond their control?

 

It is the Thai governments responsibility to procure the vaccines and make them available to ALL hospitals in the country.

 

A better post would be, ALL foreigners should be deported if they refuse vaccination within a reasonable time of the vaccines becoming available. 

39 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

 

Yes i agree with you, that is quite a possibility. Good that the american CDC covid card is very, very easy to forge. 

Soon you will need CDC card and something else to prove that you have been vaccinated

So what are authorities doing? Frenkel says if states roll out digital vaccine passports, they won’t rely on the paper CDC cards as proof.

“What they're going to do is ask pharmacies or mass vaccinations sites in your state to give them the evidence that you got vaccinated. So they're basically going to take on verifying for themselves who got vaccinated and who didn't,” she says.

https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-la/north-hollywood-bar-jobs-vaccination-illegal-cards/fake-vaccine-proof

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

A better post would be, ALL foreigners should be deported if they refuse vaccination within a reasonable time of the vaccines becoming available. 

 

That would be nothing short of force, which is not the way to go, people should always have a choice without prejudice. 

 

People have rights, take people's rights away and you have totalitarian government, is that what you and others really want ?

 

Totalitarianism is a form of government that attempts to assert total control over the lives of its citizens. It is characterized by strong central rule that attempts to control and direct all aspects of individual life through coercion and repression.

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Those who don't get the vaccine can only harm others who also didn't get the vaccine, since those vaccinated are by definition protected.

 

Why does it matter so much to the latters if a bunch of idiots (from their point of view) harm each others?

 

In the near future, you will live in a world of wise/vaccinated people, looking upon a rapidly disappearing group of brainless covidiots.

 

Survival of the fittest in all its splendor.

 

Or maybe not...

 

Of course, if the vaccine manufacturers did fail to apply due diligence and the vaccines were rushed without adequate long-term animal and human trials in an experimental setting and suddenly people start dying of pathogenic priming as outline in this Pubmed science articles outlining, then there will be hell to pay. 
"Failure of SARS and MERS vaccines in animal trials involved pathogenesis consistent with an immunological priming that could involve autoimmunity in lung tissues due to previous exposure to the SARS and MERS spike protein. Exposure pathogenesis to SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 likely will lead to similar outcomes."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32292901/
The article lays a path to a more cautious approach, but one that is currently not being taken.

Those who mandated that the public take experimental vaccines that have no cautious long-term testing may very well find themselves the target of extreme sanctions in international courts should these live trials go pear-shaped in the near future and people begin to become sick or die from the vaccine themselves.  This is exactly why long-term testing is an absolute necessity that should not be bypassed for any reason.
But now that it has, then the human subjects who take these new class of vaccines should only be comprised of willing participants, and I wish them all the luck.  After 5 years of epidemiological and experimental data on efficacy and safety have been compiled and analyzed, then I may reconsider this type of vaccine.

25 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I agree... If people don’t wish to be vaccinated that should be fine. But they should not be able to expose the rest of society and those who are unable to be vaccinated (due to medical reasons). 

 

So, if people don’t wish to be vaccinated, they can go and live in their own isolated bubble !

 

If society is go to down this path then they should have everyone vaccinated for every other contagious disease, I could put a list down but I assume you are educated enough to know which viruses and diseases I am referring to, suffice to say, if one goes down this road, then where does one stop ?

32 minutes ago, wprime said:

Note Israel used an mRNA vaccine. Thailand is using Sinovac and AZ which are inactivated/weakened virus-based vaccines. It can't be inferred that the benefits translate.

That's not quite accurate. AZ is not an inactivated or weakened virus vaccine, it's a viral vector vacccine.

 

Other than the lipid membrane that surrounds the genetic material in them, mRNA vaccines and viral vector vacccines work in an almost identical manner.

 

Here are diagrams showing how mRNA and viral vector vaccines work. You'll notice that apart from the first step, which describes the make-up of the vaccine construct, they are identical.

 

 

16 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Its becoming more clear that a vaccinated individual has less potential to transmit SARS-CoV-2.

 

 

BUT... IF YOU wish to ignore the science and continue to believe that vaccinated individuals present the same risk of transmission as a non-vaccinated individual then its obvious that you cannot be educated. 

 

Maybe I should remove the " as easily" words from my first post, to please you.

 

What I do not ignore is that there are enough reports already that vaccinated people still can transmit the virus, though it is BELIEVED to be to a lesser extent, but nobody knows for sure really, and that is why new studies has been started

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/health/coronavirus-vaccine-walensky.html

 

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday walked back controversial comments made by its director, Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, suggesting that people who are vaccinated against the coronavirus never become infected or transmit the virus to others.

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

If society is go to down this path then they should have everyone vaccinated for every other contagious disease, I could put a list down but I assume you are educated enough to know which viruses and diseases I am referring to, suffice to say, if one goes down this road, then where does one stop ?

 

Agreed, its very dangerous territory... and I certainly agree that no vaccination should be enforced.

 

At the same time I wholly disagree with those who chose to exercise their rights not to vaccinate. 

 

This is not an issue where there is a simple right from wrong, but I believe it is a lot ‘more wrong’ not to take a vaccine which is already being proven to protect society to a significant degree. 

 

 

 

o

2 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

Maybe I should remove the " as easily" words from my first post, to please you.

 

What I do not ignore is that there are enough reports already that vaccinated people still can transmit the virus, though it is BELIEVED to be to a lesser extent, but nobody knows for sure really, and that is why new studies has been started

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/health/coronavirus-vaccine-walensky.html

 

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday walked back controversial comments made by its director, Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, suggesting that people who are vaccinated against the coronavirus never become infected or transmit the virus to others.

 

Simplified it for you: 

 

In aggregate: More vaccinated people = Less Covid-19 cases = less transmission. 

 

On an individual level - is a vaccinated person who tests positive for the SARS-CoV-2 and is completely asymptomatic more or less likely to transmit the virus than an unvaccinated person who tests positive for the SARS-CoV-2 and is completely asymptomatic ????

 

I would argue the chances are the same - in effect the vaccine makes more people 'completely asymptomatic’ of Covid-19 while carrying the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

 

I believe vaccinated people can carry the SARS-CoV-2 virus and not have Covid-19, thus have far less viral load, far reduced likelihood of transmission than the same person who is unvaccinated. 

 

 

Thus: some of the Vaccinated people can still transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others, but to a far far less degree than the same amount of unvaccinated people. 

 

 

Evaluating vaccines on an individual level is flawed - the benefits are for society on a whole.