International Fraud - how to proceed

[Pete70]

I'll try and compact a complex situation down into as few facts as I can.

I'm looking for some advice on how to proceed to get this resolved - at this point I don't even know which country would be a good starting point.

Involved parties:

- Me (Swiss Citizen, living in Thailand for a decade)

I don't have much of any connection to Switzerland anymore at this stage. No residential address, no bank accounts, etc. I'd suppose it's safe to say this leaves Swiss options off the table.

- Adrian (English Citizen, living in Vietnam for 2 years)

Still has residencies in England and has family there.

 

The problem situation:

- Been friends for 20 years. Consider Adrian my best friend.

- In April this year we decided to invest into Crypto mining together, at Adrian's location (electricity is cheaper there)

- For a quick background - 4 years ago, I had financial trouble due to job loss, and Adrian helped me out by sending me 5000 GBP. I've slowly paid that back over time and it was hassle-free.

- On April 19th, 2021 I sent him 400'000 THB (around 9000 GBP). Which was 50% of the planned investment of somewhere around 25'000 USD.

- Availability of the mining machines was difficult back then, and we had to wait.

- On May 7th Adrian said that he has transferred the funds for the Antminers, and that the local seller has confirmed arrival of new stock.

- May 20 Adrian stated that he has not received any response from the seller in "over a week". Up until this point he has still not shared the seller's details with me, despite me asking repeatedly. A few days after he stated that the money was transferred directly to an individual and not via a trading platform.

- June 1st when I kept pressuring for a straight answer he told me "I’ll find the guy , you can have your money back , until then take your <deleted>ty attitude and bossy manner and <deleted> off. " and proceeded to block me on Facebook (our main method of communication).

- It has now been a month, and I'm still blocked, he hasn't responded to emails nor attempts at making contact by others. Attempts to discuss it with his daughter have also resulted in silence.

 

I've had enough and I want to pursue this legally. This seems to be a clear-cut case of him trying to ghost me and minimizing his losses. From my point of view, he made the decision by himself, without even informing me that he made a deal outside of a platform such as Amazon or Lazada (or whatever the local one in Vietnam was called).

Note that he is by no means in financial trouble. He owns property in England and has a very well paying job working remotely for IBM in their consulting branch.

How do I get started here?

Do you know of any legal contacts in Vietnam or Thailand that are experienced in this sort of fraud?

I have all the planning and discussions in Facebook logs, which can be requested by a court, and can't be tampered with by neither him or me.

Thank you for your time

[Kwasaki]

Wherever you live in Thailand get to see a local lawyer who might refer you to one who specializes in these types case. 

To cut it short IMHO you sent money to a so called friend, whatever you consider his financial position to be it sounds to me you have been scammed.

Without going to where he lives and seeing him face to face I don't think you can do much about ever getting the money back from someone outside Thailand.

[wprime]

I might be misunderstanding this, but it sounds like you invested in something with your friend, and all the money was lost because of a scammer who failed to deliver some product.

 

What this will come down to is how would you be rewarded from this investment? Were you entitled to a share of the profits or were you offered fixed payments and reimbursement of your initial investment after a specific date?

 

If the former, then you have a claim against the scammer, you have no claim against your friend. The fact that he made the decision to purchase from the scammer is only relevant if he acted against your agreement or if he acted negligently which would be difficult to prove even if it was true. Essentially, you invested in something that failed, you have no recourse against your friend just because he invested in it as well and you demanding he pay you for your losses when he himself suffered the same losses is a real dick move.

 

If the latter, then you do have a claim against your friend.

[Pete70]

5 minutes ago, wprime said:

I might be misunderstanding this, but it sounds like you invested in something with your friend, and all the money was lost because of a scammer who failed to deliver some product.

 

What this will come down to is how would you be rewarded from this investment? Were you entitled to a share of the profits or were you offered fixed payments and reimbursement of your initial investment after a specific date?

 

If the former, then you have a claim against the scammer, you have no claim against your friend. The fact that he made the decision to purchase from the scammer is only relevant if he acted against your agreement or if he acted negligently which would be difficult to prove even if it was true. Essentially, you invested in something that failed, you have no recourse against your friend just because he invested in it as well and you demanding he pay you for your losses when he himself suffered the same losses is a real dick move.

 

If the latter, then you do have a claim against your friend.

It's the former. The agreement was to purchase a product we looked at *on platform*. Not directly via another, undisclosed contact, and then losing it all before even getting started, which is what ended up happening. Or so he claims. I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

[Pete70]

Just now, Pete70 said:

It's the former. The agreement was to purchase a product we looked at *on platform*. Not directly via another, undisclosed contact, and then losing it all before even getting started, which is what ended up happening. Or so he claims. I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

Think of it this way:

- you see a product you like on Amazon, a platform that offers you guarantees and a certain level of safety to protect your purchase

- due to the high cost, you decide to split it with a friend

- your friend then buys another product elsewhere and gets scammed

 

 

[wprime]

29 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

It's the former. The agreement was to purchase a product we looked at *on platform*. Not directly via another, undisclosed contact, and then losing it all before even getting started, which is what ended up happening. Or so he claims. I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

 

If that agreement to purchase it on a platform that would've protected you from scams is explicit and in writing* then you have recourse against your friend.

 

*Facebook chat/emails should work in most western jurisdictions but check this with the lawyer

 

It would be easier to get a lawyer in his country to handle the matter, just make absolutely sure he has assets and that he doesn't have evidence that contradicts the above agreement (e.g. if you said to him that he can decide) otherwise you could end up spending a lot of money on legal fees and never recovering anything.

[CharlieH]

Disappointing, upsetting and of course frustrating.

 

Now, realise you are barking at the moon ! This will go nowhere without considerrable time , more money and even more hassle.

Either go see him face to face and try to sort it out or get closure or walk away. Youve been burned, hurt and probably beating yourself up. Learn from it, not doing that would be the biggest loss here.

 

Sorry it happened to you, but its done.

 

 

[VillageIdiot]

Cut your losses right now.

   Legal redress in cases like this is like a mirage in the desert.

   The lawyers get the lion's share.

 

[chalawaan]

Crypto is mostly unregulated. Even the so-called trustworthy sites like Binance have an army of victims, the stories on Reddit Binance are off the charts this week.

 

Crypto is unloved by Governments, the chances are high they will soon outlaw all but their own experimentl digital money. They will force this on us because that means every single transaction will have a record, unless we barter things by hand.

 

So yes, betting against "the system" with cryptos in 2021 is a mugs game.

 

As for Bitcoin, the higher the price -the less value it has. I know some people will struggle with that statement. They're the ones the whales will eviscerate.

 

OP sorry for your loss. If you do pursue legal, do it in Vietnam, you'll only make things worse trying it here!

[Pete70]

Everyone seems to say to pursue this in Vietnam. But why not England?

 

The legal system is far more reliable.

 

He is English, and so is his Passport.

 

The funds were transferred to a bank account in England.

 

Is that not enough for the matter to be considered English?

 

[natway09]

So you sent your friend an unsecured loan & maybe he has just kept it or invested it inis his name

Put that one down to lack of experience.

When it comes to cold hard cash, trust yourself ONLY

[chuang]

You said I said..take it as a lesson learned...

[nobodysfriend]

[allanos]

Friends and money often are uneasy bedfellows!

 

You are perhaps right to be somewhat concerned at the silence, but it also seems that you are letting emotion get in the way over a modest sum of money.

 

Given your past, and lengthy, friendship with Adrian, who was once a "friend in need" to the tune of GBP 5000.00, it would appear that his present "ghosting" of you over a relatively small amount of GBP 9000.00, is totally out of character.

 

Adrian seems to have been something of a "brick" in your long relationship, and it is hard to believe that this element of his character has suddenly gone out the window.

 

I agree with others who believe that he may have made a genuine error of judgement. He is possibly too embarrassed, or ashamed, to admit this to you at the present time. He may also be trying to rectify the situation, and recover the missing funds, before he man's up to you.

 

There is nothing wrong, meanwhile, with laying a charge with the British police, to at least get the matter on record, if you truly believe it is a case of fraud or theft.

 

Attorneys should be a last resort, as, given the rather loose agreement you had with Adrian, as it is unlikely you have a solid foundation to recover your lost "investment" through the courts, and it may end up costing you an arm and a leg.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RJRS1301]

Do you have a written legal agreement regarding the investment amount, the manner of investment, and when you transferred the funds, was it legally binding that this what the transfer of funds was for?

Otherwise either he or someone else has scammed you, and your position is precarious to say the least.

 

[nobodysfriend]

3 hours ago, Pete70 said:

June 1st when I kept pressuring for a straight answer he told me "I’ll find the guy , you can have your money back , until then take your <deleted>ty attitude and bossy manner and <deleted> off. " and proceeded to block me on Facebook (our main method of communication).

- It has now been a month, and I'm still blocked, he hasn't responded to emails nor attempts at making contact by others. Attempts to discuss it with his daughter have also resulted in silence.

Looks like a classical rip-off to me ...

[ed strong]

I've slowly paid that back over time and it was hassle-free.

 

Perhaps it was hassle free for you but perhaps your friend did not see it quite the same? anyways potentially some motive for doing you over like this.

 

The traded item (crypto miners) has no relevance to the case, you sent money to a friend for a joint purchase and it never went through. The chances of you getting your money back are very very low.

 

I would forget about it and move on, otherwise its goiung to sit with you for a while and potentially even cost you more money.

[Liverpool Lou]

26 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

3 hours ago, Pete70 said:

June 1st when I kept pressuring for a straight answer he told me "I’ll find the guy , you can have your money back , until then take your <deleted>ty attitude and bossy manner and <deleted> off. " and proceeded to block me on Facebook (our main method of communication).

- It has now been a month, and I'm still blocked, he hasn't responded to emails nor attempts at making contact by others. Attempts to discuss it with his daughter have also resulted in silence.

Expand  

Looks like a classical rip-off to me ...

It looks just as much like he's been told that he will get his money back in due course...

"he told me "I’ll find the guy , you can have your money back...".

 

Perhaps the OP's "<deleted>ty attitude and bossy manner" <deleted> off his partner in Vietnam who may also have been screwed?

Edited July 5, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, Pete70 said:

This seems to be a clear-cut case of him trying to ghost me and minimizing his losses.

It seems to be a clear cut case of your voluntarily sending your best friend $12,500 without a contract.   It was only 34 days ago that he told you that he'll get you your money back so how has he committed an "international fraud"?

 

Based on what you posted, no offence has been committed in England or Thailand so there's no point in trying to involve those authorities, they won't be interested, and maybe no offence has been committed in Vietnam either.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[GrandPapillon]

yes move on, weak case, giving money to friends who end up drinking it or partying with it, classic 

 

done million times before and will be done again a million times after

 

should have secured the "vendor" name and "selling" conditions before sending the money,

 

anyway, seems like a bad deal from day 1, probably would have gone into deeper troubles after mining started and profit sharing was being questioned.

 

That deal was a loser deal from the start. Perfect for Nana bar talks while drinking heavily 

Edited July 5, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Pete70]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It seems to be a clear cut case of your voluntarily sending your best friend $12,500 without a contract.   It was only 34 days ago that he told you that he'll get you your money back so how has he committed an "international fraud"?

34 days since he actively blocked me. How does that put his words into perspective that I'll get my money bacK?

[jomtienisgood]

7 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

34 days since he actively blocked me. How does that put his words into perspective that I'll get my money bacK?

' Very good friend ' ..... Unfortunately.

[Liverpool Lou]

4 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

7 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It seems to be a clear cut case of your voluntarily sending your best friend $12,500 without a contract.   It was only 34 days ago that he told you that he'll get you your money back so how has he committed an "international fraud"?

34 days since he actively blocked me. How does that put his words into perspective that I'll get my money bacK?

Just 34 days ago he told you that when he finds the person he sent the his and your money to you'll get your money back, that's how.    

[GrandPapillon]

2 hours ago, Pete70 said:

Everyone seems to say to pursue this in Vietnam. But why not England?

 

The legal system is far more reliable.

 

He is English, and so is his Passport.

 

The funds were transferred to a bank account in England.

 

Is that not enough for the matter to be considered English?

 

Taking him to court in the UK might be a better option, but this will be a small claim case, could be annoying enough for him to respond to you, but doubt the court will have a clear cut judgement on that one

 

he might be stressed enough by the situation of losing money too, that he needs to focus on "finding the guy"

 

or it was an elaborate scam to get you funding for maintaining his life style in Vietnam. 

 

IBM has been "cutting" a lot of expats overseas and IT engineers in the last few months

[Pete70]

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Just 34 days ago he told you that when he finds the person he sent the his and your money to you'll get your money back, that's how.    

If that was believable - what is the reason for refusing to communicate?

 

If there are good intentions, there is no reason not to communicate. The active blocking of all forms of communication clearly tells me he wants to forget about me.

 

[Pete70]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

Taking him to court in the UK might be a better option, but this will be a small claim case, could be annoying enough for him to respond to you, but doubt the court will have a clear cut judgement on that one

 

he might be stressed enough by the situation of losing money too, that he needs to focus on "finding the guy"

 

or it was an elaborate scam to get you funding for maintaining his life style in Vietnam. 

 

IBM has been "cutting" a lot of expats overseas and IT engineers in the last few months

 

Let me try and reach his boss at IBM. I have his email address.

 

[GrandPapillon]

3 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

 

Let me try and reach his boss at IBM. I have his email address.

 

they probably fired his boss too, LOL

Edited July 5, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, Pete70 said:

Everyone seems to say to pursue this in Vietnam. But why not England?

 

The legal system is far more reliable.

 

He is English, and so is his Passport.

 

The funds were transferred to a bank account in England.

 

Is that not enough for the matter to be considered English?

 

No, it's not enough.   What offence was committed in England?   None, apparently.   

[Pete70]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it's not enough.   What offence was committed in England?   None, apparently.   

 

It was a virtual offense, right. It happened online. Thus I don't think it's all too relevant where someone is located at the time.

The funds went through England.

 

I reported him to ActionFraud of the UK police.

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it's not enough.   What offence was committed in England?   None, apparently.   

could be enough for small court, the "offence" committed is at the discretion of the court, that's why we have small courts