Pandemic of the unvaccinated????

[watthong]

On 8/10/2021 at 12:14 PM, Ryan754326 said:

I agree that the vaccines seem to be doing a good job of protecting people from serious symptoms and death, but the part I don’t understand is why so many people care whether anyone else gets vaccinated or not. As you say, the vaccinated can still be infected, which means the virus is replicating inside their body, and if the virus is replicating, then isn’t it just as possible that it could mutate in that vaccinated person? This assertion that unvaccinated people are solely responsible for any new variants doesn’t hold up in my mind, but maybe there’s something I’m missing here. 
 

The point is, that if you’re vaccinated, you are protected as well as possible for the time being, but the variants will continue to pop up, and most experts agree that covid isn’t going away, and that we’ll have to learn to live with it. The way it looks to me, is that the people who can’t deal with their own fears want to control other peoples behavior in order to soothe their own anxieties. If we let the most fearful in society dictate the policies, then I think we’ll be wearing masks and avoiding social contact forever, regardless of what percentage of the Earth’s population we manage to vaccinate.  

Short answer to a long and winding road, I mean, question is "viral load." Look it up and please do some further follow up research before asking the next question.

[cdemundo]

On 8/10/2021 at 6:02 AM, frantick said:

Vaccinations can cause variants also. Stop spreading fake news.

Ridiculous.

I know it's unlikely on this website, but are you 12 years old?

You are constantly spewing the lamest of the lame lies and untruths.

 

Here are 4 detailed refutations of this ridiculous claim.

Number 4 does not require any understanding of science other than to note that a cause has to come before an effect in time.

You will note that this articles do not just make statements but back them up with evidence.

 

Again, I am posting these for those that have real concerns that the above claim might be true.

 

1) https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-did-covid-vaccines-cause-the-delta-variant/a-58242263

 

"Have vaccines caused the delta variant?

It is impossible for the delta variant to have been caused by vaccines.

This virus mutation was detected for the first time in October 2020 in the Indian state of Maharashtra. The first person in India to be vaccinated, however, did not receive that vaccination until January 2021, around three months after the delta variant developed. This refutes the claims mentioned at the beginning.

This fact check explains how mutations come about and why vaccines cannot be held responsible for them."

 

 

2) https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-variants/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccination-efforts-are-causing-new-covid-19-variants-idUSL2N2NL1M2

Fact Check-No evidence vaccination efforts are causing new COVID-19 variants (7 MIN READ)

 

3) https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

No, COVID-19 Vaccines Do Not Cause New Coronavirus Variants

 

4) https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/08/07/did-covid-19-vaccines-cause-coronavirus-delta-variants-no-evidence-behind-such-claims/?sh=3c25b174281d

Did Covid-19 Vaccines Cause Coronavirus Delta Variants? Here’s What The Timing Says

 

[jak2002003]

On 8/9/2021 at 1:26 PM, ArcticFox said:

Your logic: All Christians are Trump supporters? All 'bible-thumpers' are 'anti-vaxx?'  That's seriously flawed logic. 

Personally I find what you said to be offensive.  I'm curious.  When did this forum become a springboard to attack and mock Christian beliefs?  Right here and now I guess. 
Caveat.  I could care less about Trump as well as most of the swill who gravitate to the top of the political food chain.  Most devout Christians in this world are not 'bible-thumping, anti-vaxx, Trump supporters.'

Christians should not be allowed the vaccine. They don't need it because their almighty, all seeing, all knowing God would surely protect them from a mere virus.  If they catch covid it must be god's will or perhaps they don't believe in God enough.

 

Or don't Christians really believe God will hear their prayers and protect them from harm? 

 

If they have the vaccine they are being selfish and putting others lives in danger.

Edited August 11, 2021 by jak2002003

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, jak2002003 said:

Christians should not be allowed the vaccine. They don't need it because their almighty, all seeing, all knowing God would surely protect them from a mere virus.  If they catch covid it must be god's will or perhaps they don't believe in God enough.

 

Or don't Christians really believe God will hear their prayers and protect them from harm? 

 

If they have the vaccine they are being selfish and putting others lives in danger.

You know that saying that there are on atheists in foxholes? Maybe there are no Christians, either.

[Jingthing]

On 8/9/2021 at 4:16 PM, Jeffr2 said:

100% incorrect. You really need a better source for your news.

 

Vaccines are our only way out of this mess. Being a covid sceptic helps no one.

Yep.

Vaccinate locally.

Vaccinate globally.

 

Famous epidemiologist says world is nowhere near the end of the pandemic | TheHill

Quote

 

Renowned epidemiologist Larry Brilliant warned Sunday that until a majority of the global population is vaccinated against COVID-19, the virus will continue to mutate and spread. 

“I think we’re closer to the beginning than we are to the end [of the pandemic], and that’s not because the variant that we’re looking at right now is going to last that long,” Brilliant, the founder of Pandefense Advisory, told CNBC. 

“Unless we vaccinate everyone in 200 plus countries, there will still be new variants,” Brilliant, who was part of the World Health Organization’s team focused on eradicating smallpox, added.

 

 

[impulse]

On 8/9/2021 at 9:49 AM, cdemundo said:

The thing is, like it or not, the experimental vaccines have now been given to millions of people. There has never been a trial to my knowledge that even included 100,000 subjects.

There is more data available now than for any medicine or drug that went through complete approval.

But not a lick of data on long term effects.  For that, the vaccine has to be tested for a long term.  None of them have.

 

[248900_1469958220]

Interesting article on study done one Pfizers effectiveness

 

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html

 

And the study itself:

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1

 

 

 

 

[248900_1469958220]

But Israel's vaccine rates are some of the highest in the world??? So....why? 

 

 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-given-highest-covid-travel-warning-by-cdc-676325

[248900_1469958220]

I think vaccine 'passports' must be on shaky ground....no?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/developer-astrazeneca-shot-says-delta-114837457.html

 

Another source: 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8

 

Pandemic of the unvaccinated.....mmmmmm....

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by 248900_1469958220

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

I think vaccine 'passports' must be on shaky ground....no?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/developer-astrazeneca-shot-says-delta-114837457.html

 

Another source: 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8

 

Pandemic of the unvaccinated.....mmmmmm....

 

What you don't seem to understand can best by encapsulated in this question: If Covid-19 had the same effect on everyone from its start, that it has on the those now fully vaccinated with Pfizer, would it even be a matter of great concern?

[frantick]

12 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Ridiculous.

I know it's unlikely on this website, but are you 12 years old?

You are constantly spewing the lamest of the lame lies and untruths.

 

Here are 4 detailed refutations of this ridiculous claim.

Number 4 does not require any understanding of science other than to note that a cause has to come before an effect in time.

You will note that this articles do not just make statements but back them up with evidence.

 

Again, I am posting these for those that have real concerns that the above claim might be true.

 

1) https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-did-covid-vaccines-cause-the-delta-variant/a-58242263

 

"Have vaccines caused the delta variant?

It is impossible for the delta variant to have been caused by vaccines.

This virus mutation was detected for the first time in October 2020 in the Indian state of Maharashtra. The first person in India to be vaccinated, however, did not receive that vaccination until January 2021, around three months after the delta variant developed. This refutes the claims mentioned at the beginning.

This fact check explains how mutations come about and why vaccines cannot be held responsible for them."

 

 

2) https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-variants/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccination-efforts-are-causing-new-covid-19-variants-idUSL2N2NL1M2

Fact Check-No evidence vaccination efforts are causing new COVID-19 variants (7 MIN READ)

 

3) https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

No, COVID-19 Vaccines Do Not Cause New Coronavirus Variants

 

4) https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/08/07/did-covid-19-vaccines-cause-coronavirus-delta-variants-no-evidence-behind-such-claims/?sh=3c25b174281d

Did Covid-19 Vaccines Cause Coronavirus Delta Variants? Here’s What The Timing Says

 

Ok, what I meant to say was, virus variants can occur anywhere the virus is active/replicating. So, since vaccinated people can contract covid, variants can occur in vaccinated people. Better?

 

 

[248900_1469958220]

2 hours ago, frantick said:

Ok, what I meant to say was, virus variants can occur anywhere the virus is active/replicating. So, since vaccinated people can contract covid, variants can occur in vaccinated people. Better?

 

 

I think that is a reasonable thing to say. If vaccinated people can still get and spread Covid, then....they can also play their lil ole part in the diabolical manufacture of 'variants' 

[248900_1469958220]

......ahhhh...but you nearly got me there...you see, its a PANDEMIC OF THE UNVACCINATED. I nearly forgot. 

[watthong]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

But not a lick of data on long term effects.  For that, the vaccine has to be tested for a long term.  None of them have.

 

Covid on the other hand, has very short-term effects. The most notorious one is death.
 

[watthong]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:55 AM, 248900_1469958220 said:

Can they really base vaccine mandates with 100% certainty on these vaccines being 100% effective against hospitalisation....and spreading?

Apparently Trump heard you and he recommended bleach. That would stop spreading immediately and would bypass hospitalization altogether.

[impulse]

9 minutes ago, watthong said:

16 hours ago, impulse said:

But not a lick of data on long term effects.  For that, the vaccine has to be tested for a long term.  None of them have.

Covid on the other hand, has very short-term effects. The most notorious one is death.

If you're on one end of the age curve, that's true.  On the other end, potential vaccinees have to consider their unborn children, weighed against the miniscule chance that Covid itself would kill them.  That's a much tougher decision given the unknown, untested.

 

[Nojohndoe]

On 8/9/2021 at 1:26 PM, ArcticFox said:

Your logic: All Christians are Trump supporters? All 'bible-thumpers' are 'anti-vaxx?'  That's seriously flawed logic. 

Personally I find what you said to be offensive.  I'm curious.  When did this forum become a springboard to attack and mock Christian beliefs?  Right here and now I guess. 
Caveat.  I could care less about Trump as well as most of the swill who gravitate to the top of the political food chain.  Most devout Christians in this world are not 'bible-thumping, anti-vaxx, Trump supporters.'

Does your objection extend to the prolific mockery of Thai Buddhist  beliefs ?

If you are a genuine Christian then should  you not  express  care and concern for all including Trump?

Or can devout Christians happily continue historical discrimination?

 

[Jeffr2]

Just now, lucky2008 said:

It's more like the pandemic of the vaccinated. 

The assumption that unvaccinated people are viral factories for more dangerous variants is false. 

In an unvaccinated person, the virus does not encounter the same evolutionary pressure to mutate into something stronger. So, if SARS-CoV-2 does end up mutating into more lethal strains, then mass vaccination is most likely the driver. 

But then again mutations are good for vaccine business.  ????

Misinformation. Unvaccinated are factories for mutations.  We won't get through this until more get jabbed.

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, impulse said:

If you're on one end of the age curve, that's true.  On the other end, potential vaccinees have to consider their unborn children, weighed against the miniscule chance that Covid itself would kill them.  That's a much tougher decision given the unknown, untested.

 

It's not just yourself that covid will kill. It's those you associate with and infected. We're all in this together. Sadly. 

[lucky2008]

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Misinformation. Unvaccinated are factories for mutations.  We won't get through this until more get jabbed.

Sadly, we have reached the point where those who have had the job constantly look for evidence to support their decision while those who refuse the jab do exactly exactly the same. 

We all need to live with our own decisions. 

 

It's unfortunate that mainstream media can no longer be trusted.  

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

It's more like the pandemic of the vaccinated. 

The assumption that unvaccinated people are viral factories for more dangerous variants is false. 

In an unvaccinated person, the virus does not encounter the same evolutionary pressure to mutate into something stronger. So, if SARS-CoV-2 does end up mutating into more lethal strains, then mass vaccination is most likely the driver. 

But then again mutations are good for vaccine business.  ????

Nonsense. There is no pressure from in vaccinated individuals on the virus to turn into something stronger. Viruses will be selected for resistance to the immune system of those vaccinated but that's all. And as the continuing strength of the vaccines against the Delta variant shows, the virus has a long way to go before defeating the immune systems of the vast majority of the vaccinated. What makes you believe that an immune system strengthened by vaccinations would lead to more lethal strains of the virus? What competitive advantage would that give a new variant? But what does lead to more mutations is more opportunities for the virus to reproduce. Unvaccinated individuals afford the virus greater opportunities to reproduce.

[cdemundo]

42 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

It's more like the pandemic of the vaccinated. 

The assumption that unvaccinated people are viral factories for more dangerous variants is false. 

In an unvaccinated person, the virus does not encounter the same evolutionary pressure to mutate into something stronger. So, if SARS-CoV-2 does end up mutating into more lethal strains, then mass vaccination is most likely the driver. 

But then again mutations are good for vaccine business.  ????

You don't understand selection pressure.

Mutations occur at random when there are errors in replication of RNA or DNA.

There are always some errors so the number of mutations depends on the number of replications.

More replications, more errors, more mutants.

 

Selection pressure acts on the entire population, mutants and non-mutants.

It does not cause mutation.

 

There is no such thing as "evolutionary pressure to mutate", you would fail high school biology.

In every day speech, "You don't know what you are talking about."

 

The claim of the "epidemic of the unvaccinated" is made because currently the great majority of hospitalized individuals in the US are unvaccinated. Nothing more complicated than that.

[lucky2008]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Nonsense. There is no pressure from in vaccinated individuals on the virus to turn into something stronger. Viruses will be selected for resistance to the immune system of those vaccinated but that's all. And as the continuing strength of the vaccines against the Delta variant shows, the virus has a long way to go before defeating the immune systems of the vast majority of the vaccinated. What makes you believe that an immune system strengthened by vaccinations would lead to more lethal strains of the virus? What competitive advantage would that give a new variant? But what does lead to more mutations is more opportunities for the virus to reproduce. Unvaccinated individuals afford the virus greater opportunities to reproduce.

Nonsense? Not necessarily. 

The vaccines do not "strengthen" your immune system. If you have a vaccine that doesn’t block infection completely, then the virus will mutate to evade the immune response within that person. The jabs are not designed to block infection. They allow infection to occur and at best lessen the symptoms of that infection. 

Here's an interesting read when you get some time. 

 Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ 
 

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, lucky2008 said:

Sadly, we have reached the point where those who have had the job constantly look for evidence to support their decision while those who refuse the jab do exactly exactly the same. 

We all need to live with our own decisions. 

 

It's unfortunate that mainstream media can no longer be trusted.  

The right MSM can be trusted. It's social media that's causing the problems. 

 

We're all in this together. Get the jab so we can get this behind us. I'm tired of masks and lockouts.

[Jeffr2]

19 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

Nonsense? Not necessarily. 

The vaccines do not "strengthen" your immune system. If you have a vaccine that doesn’t block infection completely, then the virus will mutate to evade the immune response within that person. The jabs are not designed to block infection. They allow infection to occur and at best lessen the symptoms of that infection. 

Here's an interesting read when you get some time. 

 Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ 
 

Not a peer reviewed article and not about covid. Jeez.

 

Unvaccinated are pushing Covid to evolve. You really need a better source for your news.

[lucky2008]

37 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

You don't understand selection pressure.

Mutations occur at random when there are errors in replication of RNA or DNA.

There are always some errors so the number of mutations depends on the number of replications.

More replications, more errors, more mutants.

 

Selection pressure acts on the entire population, mutants and non-mutants.

It does not cause mutation.

 

There is no such thing as "evolutionary pressure to mutate", you would fail high school biology.

In every day speech, "You don't know what you are talking about."

 

The claim of the "epidemic of the unvaccinated" is made because currently the great majority of hospitalized individuals in the US are unvaccinated. Nothing more complicated than that.

Are saying there is no such thing as evolutionary pressure to mutate? ????

Let's go get back to this in 6-12 months.  By then you should be on your 3rd or 4th jab.  

[lucky2008]

39 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Not a peer reviewed article and not about covid. Jeez.

 

Unvaccinated are pushing Covid to evolve. You really need a better source for your news.

The article details the history of the anti-Marek’s disease vaccine for chickens which was first introduced in 1970.  We’re on the third version of this vaccine within a decade. It has stopped working. The reason? The virus has mutated to evade the vaccine. 

And just for your information it has been peer reviewed. 

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 

PLOS Biology tested the theory that vaccines are driving the mutation of the herpesvirus causing Marek’s disease in chickens. To do that, they vaccinated 100 chickens and kept 100 unvaccinated. All of the birds were then infected with varying strains of the virus. Some strains were more virulent and dangerous than others. 

Over the course of the birds’ lives, the unvaccinated ones shed more of the least virulent strains into the environment, while the vaccinated ones shed more of the most virulent strains. 

“The findings suggest that the Marek’s vaccine encourages more dangerous viruses to proliferate. This increased virulence might then give the viruses the means to overcome birds’ vaccine-primed immune responses and sicken vaccinated flocks.”

This could very much be the case in the next 10-15 years with the Covid vaccines. 
 

Edited August 13, 2021 by lucky2008

[impulse]

6 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

21 hours ago, impulse said:

If you're on one end of the age curve, that's true.  On the other end, potential vaccinees have to consider their unborn children, weighed against the miniscule chance that Covid itself would kill them.  That's a much tougher decision given the unknown, untested.

It's not just yourself that covid will kill. It's those you associate with and infected. We're all in this together. Sadly. 

Yup.  It sucks.  There's no way around that.  Even if you get jabbed, wear a mask and act responsibly, you're still at some risk of catching and spreading it.   And if you expect young people to sacrifice their livelihoods and put their unborn children at unknown risks to protect others they come in contact with, you're infringing on their rights in favor of protecting the rights of others.  Then who's being unfair?

 

If you're worried, mask up, get jabbed (with an untested long term) vaccine and hunker down in your basement.  But don't demand that others make the same decisions.  They have rights, too.  Controlling what gets put into their bodies is one of the most fundamental of them.  Freedom to make a living is another biggie.

 

As I've said before...  I got jabbed as soon as it was practical.  But I honor the rights of others to make a different decision based on their own age and circumstances, which may be very different than mine.  Especially related to the unborn and unknown.

 

[Jeffr2]

50 minutes ago, impulse said:

Yup.  It sucks.  There's no way around that.  Even if you get jabbed, wear a mask and act responsibly, you're still at some risk of catching and spreading it.   And if you expect young people to sacrifice their livelihoods and put their unborn children at unknown risks to protect others they come in contact with, you're infringing on their rights in favor of protecting the rights of others.  Then who's being unfair?

 

If you're worried, mask up, get jabbed (with an untested long term) vaccine and hunker down in your basement.  But don't demand that others make the same decisions.  They have rights, too.  Controlling what gets put into their bodies is one of the most fundamental of them.  Freedom to make a living is another biggie.

 

As I've said before...  I got jabbed as soon as it was practical.  But I honor the rights of others to make a different decision based on their own age and circumstances, which may be very different than mine.  Especially related to the unborn and unknown.

 

 

As you well know, 99%+ of those being hospitalized or dying from Covid, didn't get the jab (with the leading jabs). Nuff said.

 

Vaccines have been mandatory for decades. No reason to not get jabbed now other than medical reasons. None. We won't get through this until a majority are done.

 

Unless they are willing to self isolate from the rest of us and pay all their own medical bills...get the jab.

[Jeffr2]

5 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

The article details the history of the anti-Marek’s disease vaccine for chickens which was first introduced in 1970.  We’re on the third version of this vaccine within a decade. It has stopped working. The reason? The virus has mutated to evade the vaccine. 

And just for your information it has been peer reviewed. 

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 

PLOS Biology tested the theory that vaccines are driving the mutation of the herpesvirus causing Marek’s disease in chickens. To do that, they vaccinated 100 chickens and kept 100 unvaccinated. All of the birds were then infected with varying strains of the virus. Some strains were more virulent and dangerous than others. 

Over the course of the birds’ lives, the unvaccinated ones shed more of the least virulent strains into the environment, while the vaccinated ones shed more of the most virulent strains. 

“The findings suggest that the Marek’s vaccine encourages more dangerous viruses to proliferate. This increased virulence might then give the viruses the means to overcome birds’ vaccine-primed immune responses and sicken vaccinated flocks.”

This could very much be the case in the next 10-15 years with the Covid vaccines. 
 

Can we stick with covid and the current global pandemic?  Please.