Combined use of AstraZeneca and Pfizer jabs starts in October in Thailand

[Isaan sailor]

I’m not a doctor, but even so, I’d rather have two shots of the same vaccine.  Far more history and data supports this.  Only exception I’d make—wouldn’t bother with two SinoVac shots.

[chessman]

2 hours ago, lightsidecat said:

Wondering what hospital.  I'm do up for my 2nd AZ at Phyathai 2 in two weeks and would like the Pfizer 2nd jab option but can live with the AZ. 

Lerdsin Hospital in Bangkok

[Marvin Hagler]

Wow! So glad I live in a civilised country where I don’t have to choose which vaccine I think might be best for me based on a few Google searches.

 

I take what is recommended to me by medical experts that I trust. Not some mix and match neccessitated by poor vaccine procurement decisions.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Marvin Hagler
Ch

[oldcpu]

11 hours ago, Airalee said:

All those links are to the same preliminary study which is neither peer reviewed nor does it consider long term effects.  I’m not anti vaccine…but when it comes to mixing up a cocktail of different vaccines, I think I’ll sit this one out until time has proven the efficacy and safety of it.

I note the fear mongers about vaccine mixing can not point to one peer reviewed study saying the mixing assessed in the Spanish, UK, German (and other country studies) are dangerous.  But they gripe and complain about studies out there now that conclude mixing in specific cases is beneficial.

 

They can only fear monger about mixing vaccines - where for decades, in different vaccines, mixing has been shown in specific cases to be beneficial.

 

But the fear mongers don't like to admit that. They just want to fear monger.

 

Having typed the above, I do think, given how slow bureaucracy is to adapt to the rapidly evolving situation with this pandemic, that anyone who wishes to travel internatinally, if you have a choice, to think twice about mixing vaccines.  Mixed vaccines tend to be accepted even less than regular vaccines, in many countries.   For international travel, at present, I would recommend against COVID vaccine mixing.

Edited September 4, 2021 by oldcpu

[Cake Monster]

15 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

As I posted in another OP:

 

A true mixed cocktail then....Hey Doc I will take a jab of Sinovac, then jab me with that AZ stuff, and now for my booster only 8 weeks or maybe 16 weeks after my Sinovac shot give me that Pfizer jab. So 3 jabs in 4 months.

 

Has the body even built up the immunities in full by the time the booster is given?

Does anyone see an issue here, or is it just me.

And in the Pattaya area, those that have received the first Pfizer shot, have only 3 weeks to wait for the second.

I dont know what the hurry up is all about, .... No, ... scrub that, I think I do, but I thought there was a required " seeding time " between the first shot and second shot of all the vaccines in order for the Body to accustomed to the new Antibody in the Blood.

The Authorities seem to be playing a bit like God here with the Vaccines, and throwing everything that is recommended by the Vaccine manufacturers out of the window.

Mixing

Dosage levels

Time frames for shots

This could be a very dangerous practice for some folk about to be Inoculated

 

[steve187]

5 minutes ago, Cake Monster said:

And in the Pattaya area, those that have received the first Pfizer shot, have only 3 weeks to wait for the second.

I dont know what the hurry up is all about, .... No, ... scrub that, I think I do, but I thought there was a required " seeding time " between the first shot and second shot of all the vaccines in order for the Body to accustomed to the new Antibody in the Blood.

The Authorities seem to be playing a bit like God here with the Vaccines, and throwing everything that is recommended by the Vaccine manufacturers out of the window.

Mixing

Dosage levels

Time frames for shots

This could be a very dangerous practice for some folk about to be Inoculated

 

 quote 'Pfizer warned there was no evidence to support a move away from a three-week gap' from https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/spacing-pfizer-covid-shots-boosts-antibody-levels-after-initial-drop-study-2021-07-22/

CDC in USA 'The recommended interval between doses is 21 days for Pfizer-BioNTech and 28 days for Moderna; however, up to 42 days between doses is permissible when a delay is unavoidable'

[rbkk]

2 hours ago, crazykopite said:

No Thanks when I go for my 2 nd jab on 1 October it’s AZ or nothing I refuse to be an experimental human for an untested mix and match vaccine 

It has been tested. (Com-Cov 1+2 - Oxford University) Read the links. That's why it has now been approved for use here in Thailand and many other countries. The benefits are substantial (6 times)It is an option and is not  compulsory.

[kwonitoy]

15 hours ago, Emdog said:

I'm slated to get second shot of AZ at BPH  October 22.... will they sub Pfizer or do AZ again? I wonder

A fellow member at my gym in Udon got AZ at the beginning of June, he was offered a choice of AZ or Pfizer when he went for his second shot. He went for Pfizer. It'll depend on availability 

[rbkk]

8 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

A fellow member at my gym in Udon got AZ at the beginning of June, he was offered a choice of AZ or Pfizer when he went for his second shot. He went for Pfizer. It'll depend on availability 

Otherwise known as a "Postcode Lottery."

[hanuman2543]

16 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

As I posted in another OP:

 

A true mixed cocktail then....Hey Doc I will take a jab of Sinovac, then jab me with that AZ stuff, and now for my booster only 8 weeks or maybe 16 weeks after my Sinovac shot give me that Pfizer jab. So 3 jabs in 4 months.

 

Has the body even built up the immunities in full by the time the booster is given?

Does anyone see an issue here, or is it just me.

In Germany the mix is recommended by the vaccine commission and the reason is not a shortage of vaccines:

https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/02/health/germany-covid-vaccines-mixing-intl/index.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16307323208632&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=Von %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2021%2F07%2F02%2Fhealth%2Fgermany-covid-vaccines-mixing-intl%2Findex.html

Edited September 4, 2021 by hanuman2543

[Cake Monster]

50 minutes ago, steve187 said:

 quote 'Pfizer warned there was no evidence to support a move away from a three-week gap' from https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/spacing-pfizer-covid-shots-boosts-antibody-levels-after-initial-drop-study-2021-07-22/

CDC in USA 'The recommended interval between doses is 21 days for Pfizer-BioNTech and 28 days for Moderna; however, up to 42 days between doses is permissible when a delay is unavoidable'

I was unaware that the dose times were so short for Pfizer and Moderna

[Xonax]

5 hours ago, lightsidecat said:

Wondering what hospital.  I'm do up for my 2nd AZ at Phyathai 2 in two weeks and would like the Pfizer 2nd jab option but can live with the AZ. 

I was up for my 2nd dose of AZ at Phyathai 2 on 20th September, but have just received a SMS, that I have now been rescheduled to 6th September. They seem to have plenty of vaccine and capacity, so please check your SMS or email regularily.

[unblocktheplanet]

11 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

You do not walk alone! Reacted on this already the first time I read about mix-and-match. It takes years to perfect a vaccine, and they are made to work with one or two doses of the same vaccine. 

Right. If twice AZ, then an AZ booster if advised. It's all kind of Russian roulette, innit.

[placnx]

18 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yea I've not researched it much but obviously a benefit. However there is also another study that says 2 shots AZ after a period of a few months then actualy retains a higher antibody level than 2 shots of Pfizer. No link for that as I'm on my phone.

 

Angela Merkel went for AZ then Moderna, even better perhaps? 

 

To be honest its all a step up from Sinovac used as a dose so thats a bonus.

Here's a study comparing four combinations: PFE-PFE, PFE-AZ, AZ-AZ, AZ-PFE. It compares the level of antibodies produced by these four combinations.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01694-9/fulltext

It would be interesting if they could check the antibodies of the participants 6 months after the second jab.

[Deli]

They can put their AZ where the sun neve shines in, not even in a LB. Get me 2 Pfizers under regular terms NOW and then we might talk. Damn f*** clowns

[BestB]

Only question i have is why? Is it because of shortages or because lesser wait?

 

I can only think they want to shorten the wait between the shots to vaccinate more people, but they can do that with AZ as Australia is doing.

 

Why does Thailand always try to reinvent the wheel? 

 

How would people travel at a later dates with combo vaccines? 

[sqwakvfr]

If a 3rd Booster shot becomes the recommend regimen for Covid 19 then if one has AZ and then Pfizer which vaccine is next?  Israel has started giving booster shots to it's citizens and the US is going to start 3rd Pfizer shot as the booster.  In my case I will have my 2nd Pfizer shot shortly and at least I can consider a 3rd Pfizer shot sometime in mid 2022.  I was offered Sinovac plus AZ in Chiang Mai but politely declined.  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

A 2 shot regime of AZ or 2 shots of Pfizer is fine by me, not sure exactly why you would want to mix it up, there maybe a small benefit to having the Pfizer as second dose but I've also read in a study that vaccine waning with AZ is not as rapid as it is with Pfizer. 

 

Actually, the research you cite gives a good reason why someone would want to start with a first dose of Pfizer instead of AZ.

 

That recent study did indeed find that the protection of Pfizer does wane/decline significantly after several months from the second shot. But what the study actually found is that the protection of the Pfizer vaccine starts out much higher than the AZ vaccine, and then declines to be about the same as the AZ vaccine once you get 4-5 months after full vaccination. While the protection of the AZ vaccine starts out lower, and then doesn't decline as much as the Pfizer vaccine over time.

 

So basically, by going with Pfizer, you're getting stronger protection for the first couple months compared to AZ... But then by the four to five months out point, they're basically comparable. At least, that was the finding of that one study out of the UK.

 

 

 

[shdmn]

So does this mean tourists with AstraZeneca + Pfizer (like me) will be recognized as having 2 shots?  Would be nice to see official guidance on this.

 

I presume it will but I want to be sure.

Edited September 4, 2021 by shdmn

[SmartyMarty]

22 hours ago, Airalee said:

All those links are to the same preliminary study which is neither peer reviewed nor does it consider long term effects.  I’m not anti vaccine…but when it comes to mixing up a cocktail of different vaccines, I think I’ll sit this one out until time has proven the efficacy and safety of it.

do you ever stop?

[shdmn]

Just now, SmartyMarty said:

do you ever stop?

But they are 'not anti vaccine', they just oppose vaccines because reasons and constantly post about opposing vaccines.  But they are not anti-vaxx.  ????

[Polar Bear]

One dose of AstraZeneca followed by one of Pfizer gave better results than two of either with no additional safety concerns

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01464-w 

 

There are pre-prints from other studies that have found essentially the same result. 

There are already multiple countries doing this. It's officially recommended in Germany if the first dose was AstraZ.

 

You might not like the approach for whatever reason, but it's not just Thailand doing something crazy and unheard of.

[Polar Bear]

Duplicate post

Edited September 4, 2021 by Polar Bear

[zzaa09]

38 minutes ago, shdmn said:

But they are 'not anti vaccine', they just oppose vaccines because reasons and constantly post about opposing vaccines.  But they are not anti-vaxx.  ????

...and have an agenda that was set by others. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

12 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

I’m not a doctor, but even so, I’d rather have two shots of the same vaccine.  Far more history and data supports this.

Not according to The German Standing Committee on Vaccination (STIKO).

 

As mentioned in the article already linked to above:

 

Quote

STIKO said that "current study results" show that the immune response generated after a mixed dose vaccination "is clearly superior."

There is also plenty of history supporting the use of a heterologous prime-boost regimen (aka mix-and match). It has been used successfully with a number of different vaccines already, notably the Ebola and Hepatitis B vaccines.

 

In addition, the scientific rationale for it seems pretty good to me. The best immune response is one that combines both a strong antibody response and good levels of T cell production. However no one vaccine does both equally well.

 

As the article below mentions, the AZ vaccine induces better T cell production while the Pfizer product leads to higher levels of antibodies. Other studies have shown that the same is true of viral vector and mRNA vaccines in general.

 

Immunogenicity and reactogenicity of heterologous ChAdOx1 nCoV-19/mRNA vaccination

 

So by mixing a viral vector vaccine and an mRNA vaccine you are likely to induce a better overall immune response than by using only one. You are in effect, getting the best of both worlds.

Edited September 4, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[shdmn]

I believe there are at least 3 peer reviewed studies on mixing vaccines now.  No, I am not going to find them for you.  If you are trying to post FUD you aren't interested in facts anyways.

Edited September 4, 2021 by shdmn

[mahtin]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/immune-response-astrazeneca-shot-boosted-by-mixing-dose-schedule-with-pfizer-2021-06-28/

 

I am going with the Oxford study.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

15 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

I’m not a doctor, but even so, I’d rather have two shots of the same vaccine.  Far more history and data supports this.  Only exception I’d make—wouldn’t bother with two SinoVac shots.

What data ?... Find one study or one link which suggests ‘data supports’ two shots of the same vaccine.

 

You are right, you are not a doctor, but neither are you checking your facts before posting. 

 

Isaan Sailor - you need to adjust your sextant, you are heading in the wrong direction on this one. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

If a 3rd Booster shot becomes the recommend regimen for Covid 19 then if one has AZ and then Pfizer which vaccine is next?  Israel has started giving booster shots to it's citizens and the US is going to start 3rd Pfizer shot as the booster.  In my case I will have my 2nd Pfizer shot shortly and at least I can consider a 3rd Pfizer shot sometime in mid 2022.  I was offered Sinovac plus AZ in Chiang Mai but politely declined.  

Theoretically, any should be ok for a Booster... All the ‘current’ Covid-19 vaccines are designed to build antibodies, they just go about that and trick the body in slightly different ways.

 

 

We’ve been mixing vaccines all our lives - Tetanus, Polio, Diptheria, Hepatitis etc... (I remember have 4 vaccines in one day before travelling out to Asia).

 

It’s just a vaccine, its astonishing how much attention this is getting beyond the brilliance that the vaccine roll out has been achieved so efficiently. 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, BestB said:

Only question i have is why? Is it because of shortages or because lesser wait?

 

I can only think they want to shorten the wait between the shots to vaccinate more people, but they can do that with AZ as Australia is doing.

 

Why does Thailand always try to reinvent the wheel? 

 

Looking for the worst and skipping past the facts a bit with this one.... 

 

Other countries have been ‘mixing vaccines’ for months - Germany one well known example. 

 

There is no reason why Thailand can’t do this, nothing is being reinvented. 

 

My guess is that this has more to do with the availability of the mRNA vaccines which are proven to provide better efficacy.