Who needs foreign tourists?

[HashBrownHarry]

13 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Visas is the main one.  Hoops to jump through etc.

 

Maybe making Pattaya / Thailand a family holiday destination, thus no adult nightlife in the future.  

 

Protests, violence, civil war etc, leading to martial law or similar.  

 

I am well aware that as a farang I do not have a "right" to live here.  At any point in time the Thai government wants farang out of Thailand, they can do it, either slowly, or over 12 months.

Visa's are a once a year event, not daily.

 

Protests in Pattaya, did i miss them?

 

You think making Pattaya a 'family holiday destination' will make all the nightlife dissapear.....really?

 

As a farang you also do not have a 'right' to live there, it's a lot more 'closed' that what Thailand is, have you ever been?

[sscc]

9 hours ago, newnative said:

     Tourists in normal times will keep coming in healthy numbers, as they did in 2019, because, as you say, 'Thailand is Thailand'.  They were coming in record numbers to see Thailand, and not just a tourist attraction a country has built.  Not that there's anything wrong with building a tourist attraction.  But, Vietnam building a tourist attraction is not going to stop people from wanting to visit and see Thailand.  France has Disneyland Paris.  I still want to visit and see Spain.  

     Vietnam apparently had a big increase in tourists in 2019.  That didn't stop record numbers from visiting Thailand that same year--nearly 40 million.  In normal times, there are enough tourists to go around.  Both countries are fortunate to be sitting close to large population countries a short plane ride away--with many citizens who did not have the means to travel until now.  Not to mention a number of other Asian countries with citizens now having enough money to take a trip somewhere.  Over 4 million tourists from Malaysia visited Thailand in 2019, for example.  That's more than from the UK, Germany, France, and the US combined.   If we ever get back to some semblance of normal both countries should be able to count on a steady stream of Asian tourists, and others.  

You have a point,  particularly related to Asian tourists travel habit. 

 

Traveling to a nearby country say within 5 hours flight time,   Asians mostly take short 4-day holiday, flying out Friday morning and arriving home on Monday.   

In essence, The PRC and Taiwanese, Sing, Malaysians etc  visit BOTH  Thailand and Vietnam ( or wherever nearby )  in TWO separate trips.   Not a mutually exclusive choice as the poster kept discussing.   

 

Once they have been to both ( or wherever ),   repeated destination pick is based on criteria such as Nightlife, Sanuk, gambling, illicit substance and of course pricing,.   

Henceforth the cannisbis Weed thing may be a low profile booster for Asian market.  

 

[Leaver]

23 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Visa's are a once a year event, not daily.

 

Say they raise the seed money from 800k baht to 1.5 million baht, or 65k to 90k a month, and do proper enforcement on the use of agents.  How many expats does this knock out of Thailand?

 

It maybe an annual event, but with a shift of government policy, many may not qualify to live here.

 

29 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Protests in Pattaya, did i miss them?

 

Obviously, you did.  Perhaps if you lived here full time and took an interest in Thai current affairs, you would know the natives were restless, pre covid, with some civil unrest also during covid.  

 

Should protestors start burning government buildings, again, and martial law is imposed for a lengthy period of time, I may move.  

 

32 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

You think making Pattaya a 'family holiday destination' will make all the nightlife dissapear.....really?

You think the Thai government / police couldn't make it disappear, if they wanted to.  Really?

 

34 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

As a farang you also do not have a 'right' to live there, it's a lot more 'closed' that what Thailand is, have you ever been?

Many times.  That's why it's my Plan B.  Have you ever been to Vietnam?  

[Leaver]

25 minutes ago, sscc said:

You have a point,  particularly related to Asian tourists travel habit. 

 

Traveling to a nearby country say within 5 hours flight time,   Asians mostly take short 4-day holiday, flying out Friday morning and arriving home on Monday.   

In essence, The PRC and Taiwanese, Sing, Malaysians etc  visit BOTH  Thailand and Vietnam ( or wherever nearby )  in TWO separate trips.   Not a mutually exclusive choice as the poster kept discussing.   

 

Once they have been to both ( or wherever ),   repeated destination pick is based on criteria such as Nightlife, Sanuk, gambling, illicit substance and of course pricing,.   

Henceforth the cannisbis Weed thing may be a low profile booster for Asian market.  

 

 

Care to comment on the western market?   It's the market I am discussing. 

 

You know, the market that was once the dominant market here, and was dwindling the last few years, pre covid.

 

How / why did Pattaya lose this market?   

[HashBrownHarry]

8 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Say they raise the seed money from 800k baht to 1.5 million baht, or 65k to 90k a month, and do proper enforcement on the use of agents.  How many expats does this knock out of Thailand?

 

It maybe an annual event, but with a shift of government policy, many may not qualify to live here.

 

 

Obviously, you did.  Perhaps if you lived here full time and took an interest in Thai current affairs, you would know the natives were restless, pre covid, with some civil unrest also during covid.  

 

Should protestors start burning government buildings, again, and martial law is imposed for a lengthy period of time, I may move.  

 

You think the Thai government / police couldn't make it disappear, if they wanted to.  Really?

 

Many times.  That's why it's my Plan B.  Have you ever been to Vietnam?  

Ha ha.

 

Pls send me links to 'civil unrest' in Pattaya - lol.

 

Why would i have any interest in Thai current affairs, it has no effect on my life.

 

I lived in Vung Tau for 3 years, if the man priority of your existence in life is the nightlife scene ( which your post indicate ) then you've no idea what to expect in VN.

 

Good luck, the sooner you leave the better.

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Pls send me links to 'civil unrest' in Pattaya

Nationwide, Harry.  Not just local.  

 

Here's just one short article of many on the internet.   

 

 

5 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Why would i have any interest in Thai current affairs, it has no effect on my life.

 

It would if you no longer could meet the visa criteria.

 

5 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

I lived in Vung Tau for 3 years, if the man priority of your existence in life is the nightlife scene ( which your post indicate ) then you've no idea what to expect in VN.

 

I've been to Vung Tau a few times.  I liked the place,  I know how the nightlife operates there.  Why did you leave?  

 

Nightlife is currently the main reason I reside in Pattaya. I doubt that will always be the case.

 

9 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Good luck

 

Thanks, but South East Asia for a foreigner is more about due diligence than luck.   

[HashBrownHarry]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Nationwide, Harry.  Not just local.  

 

Here's just one short article of many on the internet.   

 

 

 

It would if you no longer could meet the visa criteria.

 

 

I've been to Vung Tau a few times.  I liked the place,  I know how the nightlife operates there.  Why did you leave? 

 

Nightlife is currently the main reason I reside in Pattaya. I doubt that will always be the case.

 

 

Thanks, but South East Asia for a foreigner is more about due diligence than luck.   

As mentioned no interested in the link or any of the current affairs in Thailand, like most countries there's nothing that the common man may do to have any effect on it.

 

95% of other expats will leave Thailand before me should visa requirments change. FWIW i see them becoming easier in the next few years.

 

I left VT coz my work contract was over.  If you like to go out on the 'scene' regularly VT is not the place for that, too small, it'll end in tears.

 

 

[Leaver]

27 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

As mentioned no interested in the link or any of the current affairs in Thailand, like most countries there's nothing that the common man may do to have any effect on it.

Not about you effect on them, it's about their effect on you.

 

28 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

95% of other expats will leave Thailand before me should visa requirments change.

Can you 100% guarantee that?  ????

[Leaver]

31 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

I left VT coz my work contract was over.  If you like to go out on the 'scene' regularly VT is not the place for that, too small, it'll end in tears.

 

I never had a problem there, and enjoyed the place.  Partied with a lot of the oil and gas guys as well.  

[HashBrownHarry]

3 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Not about you effect on them, it's about their effect on you.

 

Can you 100% guarantee that?  ????

They have no effect on me, what bit of that don't you understand.

 

Yes 100%.

 

Next question....

[HashBrownHarry]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

 

I never had a problem there, and enjoyed the place.  Partied with a lot of the oil and gas guys as well.  

2 week millionaire?

[Leaver]

6 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

They have no effect on me, what bit of that don't you understand.

 

Yes 100%.

 

Next question....

So decisions made by the Thai government on immigration will have no effect on you, ever, 100% guaranteed.  ????????

 

Another boiling frog.  

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Leaver

[Leaver]

5 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

2 week millionaire?

More like 2 night millionaires.  ????  

[HashBrownHarry]

20 minutes ago, Leaver said:

So decisions made by the Thai government on immigration will have no effect on you, ever, 100% guaranteed.  ????????

 

Another boiling frog.  

 

Correct.

 

Why's that funny?

[Leaver]

36 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Correct.

 

Why's that funny?

 

Do you have Thai citizenship?  

[HashBrownHarry]

4 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Do you have Thai citizenship?  

No, do you?

 

 

[newnative]

11 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

You miss my point, newnative.

 

Picture a young professional couple looking for a 2 week overseas holiday.  Same with mum, dad, and the two kids.  Or, the newly retired couple with time on their hands.  They get on the internet, or go to see a travel agent, and compare facilities, attractions, and value for money.    

 

I won't mention Googling "scams Thailand" or similar, and all the negative reports that may influence their decision.  

 

The above are tourists with real money to spend, not like millions of zero baht Chinese tourists, although I do agree with you, the tourist numbers were up, on the back of cheap Chinese package holiday makers.  

 

5 to 10 years from now, which country do you think will be more attractive to that above western market/s?  

 

As for roads, how many tourists use long distance land transport on a 2 week holiday here?  

    Nearly 40 million tourists chose to visit and see Thailand in 2019.  The only thing that stopped them in 2020 was covid--not 'scams' or 'negative reports'.  I suspect Thailand will remain popular while Vietnam becomes more popular as it opens up to tourism.  I frankly hope Thailand plateaus at around 40 million tourists.  There can be too much of a good thing--as places like Venice have found.  

   They may not all use it for 'long distance' but, obviously, quite a few tourists, both domestic and foreign, use land transport to get to tourist destinations all over Thailand.  A good highway to get them to ___________(fill in tourist attraction) is a plus.  

    Dubai just built the tallest ferris wheel in the World.  I still want to visit and see Spain.  

[newnative]

11 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Care to comment on the western market?   It's the market I am discussing. 

 

You know, the market that was once the dominant market here, and was dwindling the last few years, pre covid.

 

How / why did Pattaya lose this market?   

    Actually, the western market was not 'dwindling the last few years. pre covid'.  That is a misconception.  Only one 'western' country, of those with numbers large enough to bother tracking, had slightly fewer visitors to Thailand.  That was Australia.  Singapore was also slightly less.  For the rest, the numbers were mostly slightly up.  Thailand was not gaining huge increases in western tourists like it was with Asian visitors but the numbers were not 'dwindling'.  

    This myth of the dwindling western tourist is likely a perception issue.  In 2010 you looked into a crowd and maybe saw more westerners than Asians.  In 2020 you looked into a crowd and saw the reverse.   Although the numbers had not actually dwindled, westerners were perhaps being lost in the crowd.  

     Numbers specific to Pattaya are difficult to find but I suspect it is also likely a perception issue when people think western tourists to Pattaya were also dwindling.  Instead, Pattaya has expanded tremendously in the past few years.  Rather than dwindling, those western tourists are simply spread out in all the new places that have opened.  That includes many new bars and restaurants in different areas, new tourist attractions, using Airbnb to rent condo rooms in all the new condo projects all over the place rather than hotel rooms, and two big retail behemoths rather than 1 with the arrival of T21.  

[jacko45k]

I don't see why they should come to Pattaya these days... it looks like the port in Beirut. 

Roadworks everywhere that of course are a complete and utter mess.... both sides of Pattaya Klang without pavements, all dug up and dangerous, you can't walk 20 steps on 3rd without coming across a collapsed pavement or missing paving stones, and generally a look of dereliction and squalor with shuttered up fronts and trash lying around.....

Open for business 1st November.... don't make me laugh.

[BritManToo]

12 hours ago, Leaver said:

I've been to Vung Tau a few times.  I liked the place,  I know how the nightlife operates there.  Why did you leave?  

 

I walked into a bar in VT a couple of years back, packed with women and no customers, it was a bit intimidating. One of the girls walked up to me, "Hello, I'm 18 and can speak English, is your hotel near?"

The beach was nice, lots of seashells, not many foreign tourists.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by BritManToo

[morrobay]

48 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I walked into a bar in VT a couple of years back, packed with women and no customers, it was a bit intimidating. One of the girls walked up to me, "Hello, I'm 18 and can speak English, is your hotel near?"

The beach was nice, lots of seashells, not many foreign tourists.

 

Very interesting https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSeYsoKcn/

[HAPPYNUFF]

Both mran66 and leaver make  good, though opposing points of view, while imxcredt  gives  a younger persons  view, also   good.  Its the   uniqueness of Thailand  that attracts,( please dont go to the "Thainess"     point).  I dont want shiny, slick and modern, I can get that  in my own country., I want  the difference that  exists in    parts of the country here, and cleanliness,  decent footpaths, sensible and enforced traffic laws  ( thats an oxymoron    that will never happen here). Having  visited here   numerous times since 1988, and lived permanently  for many  years, I see  the decline in numbers of western tourists, though reasons for which   I can only surmise at,  but for an example, my three adult children, their spouses and  children, numbering 12 in total, no longer come   to this country to visit me, my wife and I  go to a mutually agreed  third country to visit with them. Their reason, and with my encouragement, being,   its simply not  farang friendly anymore.

[In Full Agreement]

On 10/12/2021 at 11:05 PM, Leaver said:

Where Thailand differs to most countries, is it relies on tourism for around 20% of GDP.  At that level, Thailand's economy  is pretty much reliant on tourism, and you would think the Thai's would nurture the industry, but no, it's rape, pillage, price gouge, tax, extort, assault, rob, rip off, scam etc, and then wonder why all the independent western tourists are no longer coming back, meanwhile, whilst outpricing themselves in  the South East Asian tourism market.  

 

 

So maybe based on the actions of the government, we can conclude  foreign tourists really aren't  welcome in the country.

 

 

 

[Leaver]

On 10/25/2021 at 7:47 AM, newnative said:

I suspect Thailand will remain popular while Vietnam becomes more popular as it opens up to tourism. 

 

I agree.  

 

Thailand will remain popular with zero baht tourists, whilst Vietnam picks up Thailand's lost western tourist market, those with real money to spend.  

 

On 10/25/2021 at 7:47 AM, newnative said:

I frankly hope Thailand plateaus at around 40 million tourists.  There can be too much of a good thing--as places like Venice have found. 

 

That's not in the Thai's nature to build sustainable tourism.

 

It's all about making a baht today, with no thought about tomorrow, or the environment.

 

On 10/25/2021 at 7:47 AM, newnative said:

They may not all use it for 'long distance'

 

Correct.

 

In any case, just look at some of the roads around here.  Eg.  Soi Pothole.

 

Not to mention, you can't even walk on the sidewalks here, which does wonders for tourism.  ????  

 

On 10/25/2021 at 7:47 AM, newnative said:

Dubai just built the tallest ferris wheel in the World. 

 

Great, but neither Thailand, or Vietnam, is in direct competition with Dubai for tourism. 

 

Thailand is in competition with Vietnam, and from what I see, Vietnam is building it bigger and better than Thailand, who can't even build a level sidewalk for tourists, and is no long a "cheap" destination.  

 

Thailand just sits back and watches Vietnam keep taking the lucrative segment of their market.  

[Leaver]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:16 AM, newnative said:

Actually, the western market was not 'dwindling the last few years. pre covid'.  That is a misconception.  Only one 'western' country, of those with numbers large enough to bother tracking, had slightly fewer visitors to Thailand.  That was Australia.  Singapore was also slightly less. 

 

So, if they were still coming to Thailand, but not to Pattaya, where were they going?  

 

On 10/25/2021 at 8:16 AM, newnative said:

Thailand was not gaining huge increases in western tourists like it was with Asian visitors but the numbers were not 'dwindling'.  

 

I agree the numbers were up, mainly on the back of cheap Chinese package holiday makers, otherwise known as "zero baht tourists" because that's pretty much what they are worth to Thailand, zero baht.  

 

No point having big tourist numbers if there is not big revenue to go with it.  All it does is pressure the infrastructure and environment, whilst profits from such tourism is repatriated back to China.  

 

On 10/25/2021 at 8:16 AM, newnative said:

This myth of the dwindling western tourist is likely a perception issue.  In 2010 you looked into a crowd and maybe saw more westerners than Asians.  In 2020 you looked into a crowd and saw the reverse.   Although the numbers had not actually dwindled, westerners were perhaps being lost in the crowd.  

 

I have never seen many Asians in bars like Retox, for example, yet, have seen their crowds dwindle pre covid, and that's Pattaya's most popular sports bar.

 

On 10/25/2021 at 8:16 AM, newnative said:

Numbers specific to Pattaya are difficult to find but I suspect it is also likely a perception issue when people think western tourists to Pattaya were also dwindling. 

A perception issue, or an observation issue?  Perhaps I need glasses.  ????  

 

I know what I saw, which was confirmed by several successful bar / restaurant owners here that cater for westerners.  Numbers were down, particularly down in high season 2019.

 

On 10/25/2021 at 8:16 AM, newnative said:

Instead, Pattaya has expanded tremendously in the past few years.  Rather than dwindling, those western tourists are simply spread out in all the new places that have opened. 

 

So bars / restaurants / hotels that have built up a good reputation and have a loyal customer base of returning tourists see a downturn because Pattaya has expanded and there are more options.  Using the Retox example, what other sports bars did they go to?   Nowhere else was busy with westerners, either.    

[Leaver]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:35 AM, BritManToo said:

I walked into a bar in VT a couple of years back, packed with women and no customers, it was a bit intimidating. One of the girls walked up to me, "Hello, I'm 18 and can speak English, is your hotel near?"

The beach was nice, lots of seashells, not many foreign tourists.

 

 

I remember the girls in the bars there all dress very nice, like they are going to a function.  Make-up, hair, nails, clothing, all immaculate, and no tattoos.

 

Girly bars were all air conditioned, with brand name beer for around 40 baht.  (that's not a misprint)    

Edited October 28, 2021 by Leaver

[BritManToo]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:19 PM, sscc said:

I suspect one item that may incidentally tilt some balance only for Asian tourists, particularly the younger groups. 

A thing I dislike much,  still cannisbis weed consumption in LOS may be a low profile draw card in the future.  Again we are talking about Asian markets only,  not Westerner tourists. 

Unlikely as it's already easily available in Cambodia and Vietnam. 

[Leaver]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:13 PM, In Full Agreement said:

 

 

So maybe based on the actions of the government, we can conclude  foreign tourists really aren't  welcome in the country.

 

 

 

 

Would that be actions, or inactions?  

 

Take metered taxis, for example.  Is it the action of government to take their cut from land transport extortion on tourists here, or the inaction of government not to enforce taxis use their meter?

 

Either way, it doesn't work for the tourists, and they will not be back, and tell all their friends about Pattaya taxis, and then take to social media and tell the world.