Will this pandemic ever end as the infections in the UK surge again.

[morrobay]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

One reason I'm tough with the anti-vaxxers.  They're killing people. And it's possible to avoid this if they just got the jab.

 

 

One of many links on serious covid and obesity. And the obese are also likely to be diabetic and hypertensive. So lets put some responsibility on the individuals who are not taking care of themselves. That is, by healthy food and herbs, excercise, and a  healthy weight.  BMI around 22. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/03/04/obesity-and-covid-death-rate-closely-linked-in-new-study/?sh=7df767a3643e.            And furthermore a healthy immune system will have good first line T and B cell response to do the job even before antibodies are produced . You should read all of this paper.     https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-is-the-role-of-t-cells-in-covid-19-infection-why-immunity-is-about-more-than-antibodies/

Edited November 16, 2021 by morrobay

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, morrobay said:

One of many links on serious covid and obesity. And the obese are also likely to be diabetic and hypertensive. So lets put some responsibility on the individuals who are not taking care of themselves. That is, by healthy food and herbs, excercise, and a  healthy weight.  BMI around 22. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/03/04/obesity-and-covid-death-rate-closely-linked-in-new-study/?sh=7df767a3643e

You act like there only risk is comorbidities or that it's the victim's fault that they have comorbidities. Very often that's not the case. The real reason they died from covid-19 is that got infected by somebody.  It is incumbent upon everybody who can to get vaccinated so viral transmission is minimised.

[morrobay]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You act like there only risk is comorbidities or that it's the victim's fault that they have comorbidities. 

Ok actually I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. By the way I edited in a new link to previous post that should be of interest to all

Edited November 16, 2021 by morrobay

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, morrobay said:

Ok actually I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. By the way I edited in a new link to previous post that should be of interest to all

Nobody denies that comorbidities play a big part in death from covid-19 but the blame doesn't lie with the victims so much as the antivaxers who are disproportionately responsible for infecting them.

[morrobay]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Nobody denies that comorbidities play a big part in death from covid-19 but the blame doesn't lie with the victims so much as the antivaxers who are disproportionately responsible for infecting them.

Im not anti flu vax or anti covid vax. Regarding individual transmissions in the context of comorbidities this paper states that those with the more serious covid disease are more contagious to others.                         https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/08/210826170205.htm

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, morrobay said:

Im not anti flu vax or anti covid vax. Regarding individual transmissions in the context of comorbidities this paper states that those with the more serious covid disease are more contagious to others.                         https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/08/210826170205.htm

You nevertheless explicity stated that they should bear some responsibility for their own infections and deaths. My point, again, is that the greater responsibility lies with those who have an even greater ability to control the outcome but choose not to.

[fjb 24]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

antivaxers who are disproportionately responsible for infecting them.

Clarify the meaning of this message and then provide some evidence that corroborates whatever you are trying to say. Otherwise you are spreading false information and your false posts should be edited or deleted.

If anti-vaxers in your world are unvaccinated, then why are some countries with highest vaccination rates experiencing the highest infection rates?

[Will B Good]

2 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Clarify the meaning of this message and then provide some evidence that corroborates whatever you are trying to say. Otherwise you are spreading false information and your false posts should be edited or deleted.

If anti-vaxers in your world are unvaccinated, then why are some countries with highest vaccination rates experiencing the highest infection rates?

Infection rates are seriously misleading as a statistic to support or undermine the vaccination program.

 

Hospitalization and deaths are the 'true' measures to use.

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Clarify the meaning of this message and then provide some evidence that corroborates whatever you are trying to say. Otherwise you are spreading false information and your false posts should be edited or deleted.

If anti-vaxers in your world are unvaccinated, then why are some countries with highest vaccination rates experiencing the highest infection rates?

This has been explained over and over and over ad nauseum in this thread. It is beyond challenge that we now have a pandemic of the unvaccinated and that fully vaccinated people are far, far less likely to either become infected or to transmit the virus.

[ozimoron]

43 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

[removed]

You don't understand statistics, simple as that. When most people are vaccinated then more vaccinated people become infected as a proportion of the population. From a medical point of view, vaccinated people have been proven to be less likely to catch, transmit or become seriously ill. Unless you can properly substantiate your claim in a way that isn't just misinterpreting statistical data then you are just spreading misinformation.

 

You have not in any way substantiiated your claim that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are equally likely to become infected or transmit the virus.

[Jeffr2]

32 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Clarify the meaning of this message and then provide some evidence that corroborates whatever you are trying to say. Otherwise you are spreading false information and your false posts should be edited or deleted.

If anti-vaxers in your world are unvaccinated, then why are some countries with highest vaccination rates experiencing the highest infection rates?

Come on. Numerous articles have been posted here all indicating the current wave is due to the unvaccinated. Not false information at all.

[fjb 24]

CDC says:"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," she said. "They continue to work well with 'Delta' with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

Go argue with the CDC gal on this.

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, fjb 24 said:

CDC says:"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," she said. "They continue to work well with 'Delta' with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

Go argue with the CDC gal on this.

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

 

This would be true even if the vaccine was 99% effective in preventing transmission. Your are deliberately misinterpreting and distorting what Fauci said to mean something he clearly didn't say. Fauci said that the vaccines were not totally effective, that's a world away from being ineffective as you are trying to imply. Stop spreading misinformation.

[Jeffr2]

23 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

CDC says:"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," she said. "They continue to work well with 'Delta' with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

Go argue with the CDC gal on this.

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

 

A typical comment from the anti vaxxers.

 

Jabs work great. Sad some try to say they don't. One reason we're still in this mess.

[Jeffr2]

27 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

CDC says:"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," she said. "They continue to work well with 'Delta' with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

Go argue with the CDC gal on this.

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

 

From the link.

 

Those breakthrough infections have mild illness. They are staying out of the hospital. They are not dying. And I think that that's the most important thing to understand. We have a massive number of people who are vaccinated and those breakthrough infections tend to be mild and not severe.

[onthedarkside]

A flame post has been removed.

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Clarify the meaning of this message and then provide some evidence that corroborates whatever you are trying to say. Otherwise you are spreading false information and your false posts should be edited or deleted.

If anti-vaxers in your world are unvaccinated, then why are some countries with highest vaccination rates experiencing the highest infection rates?

You might want to consult this page to see why reported numbers of infections may differ from reality, by how much they differ in accuracy from country to country, and what epidemiological statisticians do to try and establish more accurate numbers.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-models

[Oblomov]

No of course it will never end but we'll have to get used to it, just like we tolerate and manage risk in all other parts of lives. It's obscene that nothing much is reported of the masses of kids begging on streets (and worse,) as well as the disruption to treatments for significant other illnesses due  to this much too singular focus on this present threat to societies and health. Of course, if they're not our kids starving and not us missing treatments or losing livelihoods, then we have the luxury of only fearing this present virus. 

 

Excess deaths will even out and we'll all find an acceptance with those (not through choice but by the fact of them) just as we know and accept all the other nasties that will carry us off. I think vaccines are the best hope to limit the terrible disruption to the increasingly difficult lives of so many and the core services of health services globally.

 

It's a pity voices are never so loud and unremitting on the causes of these viruses as there are many others seeking that bridge and capable equal misery and chaos.

 

Will it end? No - Will we get used to it like all the other viruses and disease? Yes, because we will have to.

[Scott]

Troll post and reply removed.

 

[Danderman123]

14 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

CDC says:"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," she said. "They continue to work well with 'Delta' with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

Go argue with the CDC gal on this.

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

 

I hope you understand that helping the virus spread is a bad thing, and if you don’t vaccinate, you are helping the virus to spread.

[morrobay]

This study explains why some people who were repeatedly exposed to covid-19 before the vaccine rollout apparently did not catch it. It appears that some of them had pre existing memory T cell immunity to a virus protein essential for replication. Probably induced by previous infection to other seasonal circulating coronaviruses.  

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-looking-at-memory-t-cells-and-the-immune-response-to-sars-cov-2/.    So it's not going to end but the combination of vaccines, natural immunity from previous infections and the culling of the herd, it will fade away

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by morrobay

[Scott]

1 hour ago, morrobay said:

This study explains why some people who were repeatedly exposed to covid-19 before the vaccine rollout apparently did not catch it. It appears that some of them had pre existing memory T cell immunity to a virus protein essential for replication. Probably induced by previous infection to other seasonal circulating coronaviruses.  

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-looking-at-memory-t-cells-and-the-immune-response-to-sars-cov-2/.    So it's not going to end but the combination of vaccines, natural immunity from previous infections and the culling of the herd, it will fade away

 

My big take away from this is just how complex our immune system is and how well it works for many.   I have wondered for a long time if they have looked at people who got the original SARS and whether they had any specific immunity.  A good friend of mine contracted the original SARS, he fared reasonably well from it and when he got his J&J shot after having numerous exposures to Covid at a half-way house he was staying in and not getting sick, he wondered if it had anything to do with having had SARS.  

 

It's important to note that we have two broad parts to the immune system, the innate and the adapted.  The innate system is on patrol for any foreign invader and will attack immediately.  It will 'notify' the adapted system that will use T and B cells to start churning out cells to fight it.  They spew out cells that have a great deal of mutations and the hope is that one of the mutations will fight this specific virus.   Once it does, it produces large numbers of that effective cell. 

 

That antibody response may target any number of the proteins on the virus and maybe very effective or less effective.   How fast the message goes from the innate system to the adapted one varies with age and it gets quite slow as we age.  

But all that said, I remember seeing a 104 year old lady on TV well before the vaccines who had survived Covid in her nursing home.  She was pictured sitting in a wheel chair outside the nursing home where hundreds had died, waving like a 16 year old.  At the time, the speculation was because she had lived through the Spanish Flu, maybe she had some immunity.  That's highly unlikely, but something very positive was at play because she pretty much defied all the odds.  

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

My big take away from this is just how complex our immune system is and how well it works for many.   I have wondered for a long time if they have looked at people who got the original SARS and whether they had any specific immunity.  A good friend of mine contracted the original SARS, he fared reasonably well from it and when he got his J&J shot after having numerous exposures to Covid in a half-way house he was staying in and not getting sick, he wondered if it had anything to do with having had SARS.  

 

It's important to note that we have two broad parts to the immune system, the innate and the adapted.  The innate system is on patrol for any foreign invader and will attack immediately.  It will 'notify' the adapted system that will use T and B cells to start churning out cells to fight it.  They spew out cells that have a great deal of mutations and the hope is that one of the mutations will fight this specific virus.   Once it does, it produces large numbers of that effective cell. 

 

That antibody response may target any number of the proteins on the cell and maybe very effective or less effective.   How fast the message goes from the innate system tot he adapted one varies with age and it gets quite slow as we age.  

But all that said, I remember seeing a 104 year old lady well before the vaccines who had survived Covid in her nursing home.  She was pictured sitting in a wheel chair outside the nursing home where hundreds had died, waving like a 16 year old.  At the time, the speculation was because she had lived through the Spanish Flu, maybe she had some immunity.  That's highly unlikely, but something very positive was at play because she pretty much defied all the odds.  

I've also read it perhaps depends on how much viral load you get???

[Scott]

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've also read it perhaps depends on how much viral load you get???

The amount of virus we actually get in our system is pivotal to whether we get infected.  I suspect many, many people who never get sick or test positive have encountered the virus, but did not get enough of the virus to 'seed' itself.   I also suspect that Delta is in part more infections because it takes far less of the virus to make an infections.  

 

The virus usually starts reproducing in the nasal cavity (and probably the mouth) and then works its way into the lungs (and later possibly other organs). It's believed that the loss of taste and smell is due to the infection in the nasal cavities.   It infects mainly the upper portion of the lungs and that gives our system some time to get a good defense going.   The original SARS infected the tissue in the lower lungs and that is where the O₂/CO₂ exchange occurs.  That's why SARS had a 30% fatality rate. 

 

We have a lot to learn about this virus and even more about how our immune system works.  

[morrobay]

26 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've also read it perhaps depends on how much viral load you get???

Sure that's called dose response.    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686757/

[Danderman123]

*Deleted Post edited out*

 

In your effort to discredit vaccination, you are posting misinformation. Your method is similar to other anti-vaxxers, you present partial information.

 

Viral loads are similar in vaxxed and un-vaxxed, except that the vaxxed are up to 10 times less likely to be infected in the first place, and when they are infected, they are infectious for a shorter period of time. Everyone should be vaccination who can be vaccinated, so that this epidemic ends as soon as possible. Don't you agree?

 

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, fjb 24 said:

If the vaccines and the covid management procedures cited above are a good thing and helping to stop the spread, then why are they not working so well.

 

Vaccination is effective in stopping the epidemic in countries where vaccination is widespread.

 

Infections in UAE were routinely 2,000 per day, now its down to 50.

 

Israel was the poster child for anti-vaxxers when infections were 5,000+ per day, now its 346, and your internet friends have stopped sending you misinformation about Israel.

 

Vaccination is causing new infections to drop all over the world. There are pockets of unvaccinated still causing spread, but that will go away as the anti-vaxxers die off.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Vaccination is effective in stopping the epidemic in countries where vaccination is widespread.

 

Infections in UAE were routinely 2,000 per day, now its down to 50.

 

Israel was the poster child for anti-vaxxers when infections were 5,000+ per day, now its 346, and your internet friends have stopped sending you misinformation about Israel.

 

Vaccination is causing new infections to drop all over the world. There are pockets of unvaccinated still causing spread, but that will go away as the anti-vaxxers die off.

I wish the term "anti vaxxer" would be no longer used as IMO most that won't have a covid vaccine are immunized for many other diseases, ergo not anti vaccine at all, just specifically the covid vaccine. Considering those that use the term are always going on about misinformation, IMO they are engaged in misinformation themselves, by using that term to describe the covid vaccine hesitant.

Posting such derogatory insults does nothing to advance the case for vaccination. I hear people on talk back radio saying they decided not to have it because they didn't like the bullying given to the un vaccinated for covid, of which there is much going on, encouraged IMO by certain media presenters that shout down any that dare to propose an alternate viewpoint.

If such bullying continues, IMO it does not bode well for society.

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I wish the term "anti vaxxer" would be no longer used as IMO most that won't have a covid vaccine are immunized for many other diseases, ergo not anti vaccine at all, just specifically the covid vaccine. Considering those that use the term are always going on about misinformation, IMO they are engaged in misinformation themselves, by using that term to describe the covid vaccine hesitant.

Posting such derogatory insults does nothing to advance the case for vaccination. I hear people on talk back radio saying they decided not to have it because they didn't like the bullying given to the un vaccinated for covid, of which there is much going on, encouraged IMO by certain media presenters that shout down any that dare to propose an alternate viewpoint.

If such bullying continues, IMO it does not bode well for society.

Talk back radio?  One of the biggest sources for covid misinformation.  Worse than online social media.

 

What doesn't bode well for society is those who refuse the vaccine.  Or try to discredit it.

[onthedarkside]

A flame post has been removed.