Thai health officials told to discover why many still refuse to get vaccinated

[jackdd]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:44 AM, BadSpottedDog said:

and we also need to travel at some point.

For travel you will simply count as unvaccinated, doesn't matter if you are unvaccinated because you are exempt or just because you don't want to. Thus a letter won't help you in this case.

Edited November 26, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[PremiumLane]

Studies show that vaccines are better than just natural immunity. The covid vaccines boost natural immunity, and work with it. 

 

Also, this is the same for most vaccines, try fighting something like polio with just natural immunity, doesn't really work for most people. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[mokwit]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:58 AM, PremiumLane said:

Studies show that vaccines are better than just natural immunity. The covid vaccines boost natural immunity, and work with it. 

 

Also, this is the same for most vaccines, try fighting something like polio with just natural immunity, doesn't really work for most people. 

Swedish COVID19 Vaccine Effectiveness Study: Outcomes: Pfizer Vax Efficacy drops to: 92% days 15-30 47% days 121-180 0% days > 211 ~ 6-7 months

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

 

A "vaccine" used to mean something that prevented you getting the disease in the first place, not something billed as helping you fight the infection better.

[PremiumLane]

8 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Swedish COVID19 Vaccine Effectiveness Study: Outcomes: Pfizer Vax Efficacy drops to: 92% days 15-30 47% days 121-180 0% days > 211 ~ 6-7 months

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

Did you understand the study? This was about 2 jabs, and studies are showing 3 jabs is better.  Also do you know about limitations of this study? Such as previous infections, infection pressure.

 

Also, the study says that protection against severe illness is still maintained. We know that you can still catch covid after vaccination, but vaccinations greatly reduce the risks of hospitalization and reduce your ability to pass it on. 

 

Also, the argument was that vaccines boost natural immunity, which they do. You natural immunity from covid will actually drop quicker. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by PremiumLane
grammar

[mokwit]

4 minutes ago, PremiumLane said:

Did you understand the study?

Yes, I think I understood the study. Did you?

[PremiumLane]

12 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Swedish COVID19 Vaccine Effectiveness Study: Outcomes: Pfizer Vax Efficacy drops to: 92% days 15-30 47% days 121-180 0% days > 211 ~ 6-7 months

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

 

A "vaccine" used to mean something that prevented you getting the disease in the first place, not something billed as helping you fight the infection better.

To make it pithy, this study is one that helped mold the policy of needing a booster jab. That was science does, it doesn't mean the vaccines are useless. 

[PremiumLane]

Just now, mokwit said:

Yes, I think I understood the study. Did you?

Yeah, I did and answered about it. So, what are the limitations of the study? What do we conclude from it?

[mokwit]

1 minute ago, PremiumLane said:

To make it pithy, this study is one that helped mold the policy of needing a booster jab. That was science does, it doesn't mean the vaccines are useless. 

Methods: A retrospective cohort study was conducted

 

How was a retrospective study used to mold policy (in advance)

[Bkk Brian]

There's not been enough robust and large enough studies to reflect the length of time that circulating antibody levels will help fight another infection of Covid-19.

 

It seems to depend on how severe your previous infection was, if asymptomatic then the decline seems to be more pronounced as opposed to those who suffered a severe case of Covid-19. 

 

Its very complicated as it also depends on your age, any underlying illnesses you may or may not have but current evidence suggests that reinfection can occur within 5-12 months of primary infection.

 

So having a vaccine on top of your previous infection induced immunity would be my advice and give you a far greater protection. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[PremiumLane]

42 minutes ago, mokwit said:

How was a retrospective study used to mold policy (in advance)

who said anything about advance? Studies like this have shown that a booster jab is needed. 

[PremiumLane]

48 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Methods: A retrospective cohort study was conducted

 

How was a retrospective study used to mold policy (in advance)

also again, what were the limitations? From what I have read they didn't take into account asymptomatic symptoms as this is a major factor in how immunity declines.  Also the infection pressure during the study was low, this would affect result too. 

 

Not saying the report is junk, far from it. It opens up further questions of study and like I said strengthened the evidence for a booster jab. What it did not do, and this is important  ,is say that getting a vaccine is useless or natural immunity is better than a vaccine boosted immunity. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by PremiumLane
spelling

[onthedarkside]

A COVID misinformation post and reply have been removed.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:10 PM, mokwit said:

Swedish COVID19 Vaccine Effectiveness Study: Outcomes: Pfizer Vax Efficacy drops to: 92% days 15-30 47% days 121-180 0% days > 211 ~ 6-7 months

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

 

It's an interesting study, and I look forward to seeing the final version of its findings...

 

The effectiveness numbers you cite above from the study ONLY relate to effectiveness against symptomatic infection, whereas the study cited other better results/data for effectiveness against severe COVID and COVID death.

 

You also didn't mention that the study abstract found that two doses of the Pfizer vaccine outperformed two doses of the AZ vaccine in terms of preventing symptomatic infection, with the study finding AZ had no effectiveness for that beyond 4 months.

 

But the one other caveat listed on that website that you didn't mention:

 

"These preprints are early stage research papers that have not been peer-reviewed. The findings should not be used for clinical or public health decision making and should not be presented to a lay audience without highlighting that they are preliminary and have not been peer-reviewed."

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here are the specific findings of the Swedish study regarding the vaccine effectiveness of the Pfizer, Moderna and AZ vaccines (two doses) in preventing symptomatic Covid infection over varying periods post full vaccination:

 

15-30 days (up to 1 month) after:

Pfizer -- 92%

Moderna -- 96%

AZ -- 68%

 

61-120 days (up to 4 months) after:

Pfizer -- 85%

Moderna -- 85%

AZ -- 41%

 

121-180 days (up to 6 months) after:

Pfizer -- 47%

Moderna -- 71%

AZ -- no effectiveness

 

However, the other detail I noticed in reading thru the full study is that while their sample size of Pfizer vaccinations was quite large, the comparable numbers for Moderna and AZ vaccinations were vastly smaller by comparison. But I didn't see any mention in the document on how/whether those disparities might impact the findings.

 

 

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID3949410_code2488747.pdf?abstractid=3949410&mirid=1

 

The study did also include findings on vaccine effectiveness against COVID hospitalization and death, but only in aggregate form, and not breaking out those results by specific vaccines used. Though I'm guessing that data would be heavily influenced by the Pfizer vaccinations that make up the bulk of their study participants. Pretty good up to 6 months, but not so good after that.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Overall, I think the above results pretty much tell us what the bulk of the other vaccine effectiveness studies have previously found -- Moderna has the highest VE level, Pfizer trails Moderna some, and AZ is even lower.

 

Although the above results track post vaccination infections farther out than most prior studies I've seen... And the 6 month and longer results for Moderna in preventing infections aren't very good (59%), the Pfizer number is really weak (29%), and the AZ number is non-existent.

 

As the authors say... the results are a good argument in favor of the need for booster vaccinations.

 

I just wish the Thai authorities would wake up and think about all the people they double vaxed with two doses of AZ, and now seem to be refusing to allow booster doses of even privately purchased Moderna any earlier than 6 months after the prior vaccine dose... even though the study above says two doses of AZ are basically worthless beyond 4 months out.

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ignis]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:13 AM, Russell17au said:

Yes, I am in Thailand and I would guess that your chances of seeing this doctor would be zilch as he does not have his own practice and he does not attend out patience he only works in the ICU so unless 1 of your family members is admitted to the ICU then there would be a zero chance of seeing him. I thought the same thing as you and asked him where his practice was so that we could go to him for future medical needs and he told me that I would only ever be able to see him under the same circumstances that we are under now and at the ICU of the hospital. As for the powers that be accepting legitimate medical exemptions, nobody knows.

My doctor for a good few years gave me a legitimate exemption letter for medical reasons,  he said no to Covid Vaccine and referred me to another building, Dr also said 100% don't have this Vaccine, it is all in Thai no idea what good it is.. understand in UK you would get a medical card...

 

From a child the odd Vaccines I had = Hospital for days,  at about 8 years old was forced at school to have Tetanus Vaccine = Ambulance had to be called,  year 2000 after a few bouts of Flu had the FLU Vaccine = Hospital + something called Bells Palsy  21 years later still suffering with it. then last year got part 1 of Pneumonia Vaccine = 4 nights in Hospital.

 

All Vaccines appear to do the same  Blood Pressure drops around 50/27 and go into a Coma and end up in ICU,  now in my 70"s guess that will not change  ..  also have list of Med's I have severe allergic reaction to

Edited November 26, 2021 by ignis

[Odysseus123]

6 hours ago, ignis said:

All Vaccines appear to do the same

If that is the case then I presume ALL adverse events would have been fully documented and a copy kept in your medical records.

All "Allergies" are noted and colour coded.

I still have "Allergic to Penicillin"plastered all over my records from an adverse event that occurred 58 years ago.

The Thai medical authorities (very correctly) added the warning to their documentation.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Odysseus123

[ignis]

4 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

If that is the case then I presume ALL adverse events would have been fully documented and a copy kept in your medical records.

All "Allergies" are noted and colour coded.

I still have "Allergic to Penicillin"plastered all over my records from an adverse event that occurred 58 years ago.

The Thai medical authorities (very correctly) added the warning to their documentation.

Yes same - have Allergic to Penicillin & Tetanus plastered all over my records at the Hospital + a note  showing 6 Med's not to be given.

 

 

[Russell17au]

This thread is about why many still refuse? (don't) get vaccinated. 

Well today 27/11/21 it was advertised in Khon Kaen for walk-in vaccinations at Central Plaza Khon Kaen the vaccinations were 1: Sinovac - Sinovac 2: Astra Zeneca - Astra Zeneca 3: Astra Zeneca - Pfizer and 4: Pfizer - Pfizer. So I took the wife along and we arrived at about 12:30 and there were not that many people there so the wife went to the desk to check in and was told "Sorry, but there are no more vaccines available we have run out" They had run out of all the vaccines by 12:30 which means that they didn't have much because Central Plaza in Khon Kaen does not open until 11:00, so they had used all the vaccines in one and a half hours. So they told the wife that a walk-in vaccination was going to be open near Makro Khon Kaen on Monday  through to Friday next week and the wife asked then if Pfizer - Pfizer was going to be available and they told her that Pfizer - Pfizer was reserved for children between the ages of 12 to 17 and not available for anyone else. The Minister of Health has stated that people who booked and paid for Moderna should forget about it and get Pfizer instead. How can a person get Pfizer instead of Moderna as the dear Mr Anutin has stated when it is reserved for children between 12 and 17 only. Before anyone says she should get Astra Zeneca instead remember I did post on here that her daughter was forced to have Astra Zeneca and ended up in ICU in a coma and thankfully to the medical staff she is now out of ICU and should be out of hospital in the next couple of days but the doctor told the whole family do not have Astra Zeneca because it is unknown if there could be a genetic link that will effect other family members. So dear Minister of Health Anutin where is this replacement Pfizer to take the place of the Moderna vaccine that you have told the people to get and forget about the Moderna when the only Pfizer that we have found is reserved for children 12 to 17 years of age only. So why are people not getting vaccinated? Because this government has stuffed everything up.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:06 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

121-180 days (up to 6 months) after:

Pfizer -- 47%

Moderna -- 71%

AZ -- no effectiveness

 

Some additional data points on this issue.... The Swedish study above says the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness at preventing symptomatic infection declines to 47% once people are four to six months after full vaccination.

 

This study from the U.S., posted last month, also looked at the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness at preventing infection from 4 to 6 months after full vaccination. The U.S. study found almost identical results for the Pfizer vaccine to the Swedish study!

 

Effectiveness of mRNA BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine up to 6 months in a large integrated health system in the USA: a retrospective cohort study

 

Published:October 04, 2021

 

"In this retrospective cohort study, we analysed electronic health records of individuals (≥12 years) who were members of the health-care organisation Kaiser Permanente Southern California (CA, USA), to assess BNT162b2 vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infections and COVID-19-related hospital admissions for up to 6 months.

...

"Effectiveness against infections [calculated for all COVID variants] declined from 88% (95% CI 86–89) during the first month after full vaccination to 47% (43–51) after 5 months."

...

"Individuals aged 65 years and older had a vaccine effectiveness of 80% (95% CI 73–85) within 1 month after being fully vaccinated, decreasing to 43% (30–54; p<0·0001) at 5 months after full vaccination

...

Among sequenced infections, vaccine effectiveness against infections of the delta variant was high during the first month after full vaccination (93% [95% CI 85–97]) but declined to 53% [39–65] after 4 months."

 

But unlike the Swedish study, the U.S. study also examined the Pfizer vaccine's specific ability to prevent COVID hospitalization up to 6 months after full vaccination, and there the results were much better:

 

"Vaccine effectiveness against hospital admissions for infections with the delta variant for all ages was high overall (93% [95% CI 84–96]) up to 6 months." Though those age 65 and above had a somewhat lower rate.

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02183-8/fulltext

 

The authors here also state that the evidence of declining vaccine effectiveness at preventing infection over longer time periods also argues in favor of using booster doses to restore early post vaccination protection levels.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Another comparison regarding the longer term effectiveness of the AstraZeneca vaccine:

 

The Swedish study above said the AZ vaccine's effectiveness at preventing COVID infection for the period 2 to 4 months after full vaccination was only 41%, and showed no benefit beyond 6 months.

 

In August, researchers in the UK reported comparatively better results for the AZ vaccine in preventing COVID infection 3 months after full vaccination, saying its effectiveness was 61% (and 75% for the Pfizer vaccine).  But their work didn't provide any VE data for either vaccine beyond the 3 months point.

 

"Based on more than three million nose and throat swabs taken across Britain, the Oxford University study found that 90 days after a second shot of the Pfizer or Astrazeneca vaccine, their efficacy in preventing infections had slipped to 75% and 61% respectively.

 

"That was down from 85% and 68%, respectively, seen two weeks after a second dose. The decline in efficacy was more pronounced among those aged 35 years and older than those below that age."

...

"The researchers would not project how much more the protection would drop over time, but suggested that the efficacy of the two vaccines studied would converge within 4-5 months after the second shot."

 

Nothing in this report on how either vaccine fared over time in preventing COVID hospitalizations.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-wanes-under-delta-2021-08-18/

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02261-8

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Thaifly88]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:25 PM, connda said:

Start here:

If they could truthfully tell the public that the Covid vaccines stop transmission of Covid in its tracks, ends contagion, and paves the path to a return to a full Old Normal society where Covid has been eradicated?  Most people including myself would be lining up.

But that's not the case.  Here is what the population is told:
"The Prime Minister has expressed satisfaction with Thailand’s vaccination rollout and its vaccine regimens that can help reduce severe symptoms and deaths from COVID-19."
The CDC, WHO, and other health agencies no longer claim that vaccination stop transmission or contagion (I personally know people fully vaccinated with mRNA shots who were extremely ill), they are not 'sterilizing vaccines', as such they promote immune escape, the so called "protection" wanes in a short period of time (less than 6 months) and boosters will be required forever - and even if 100% of the population is vaccinated - this never ends and there will never be any going back to Old Normal.
Oh - and then the increase risk of coronary damage: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712  <shhhh>  Perfectly healthy, fully vaccinated footballers and athletes keeling over with heart issue don't help picture.  That wasn't happening prior to Covid vaccine rollout.  Of course it can be argued that correlation isn't causation - but tell that to the average citizen who simply sees what they see.  Oh - and the perception that the Thai government habitually lies to its citizens (I've no dog in that fight, but I live with Thais and know their views).  And when the government reaches a Covid milestone, they move the goalposts:
(70% vaccinated and we'll have herd immunity; 95% vaccinated and we'll have herd immunity; herd immunity is impossible so 100% need to be vaccinated) or
(The vaccines will stop transmission and contagion, the vaccines will stop you from getting sick, the vaccines "can help reduce severe symptoms and deaths.")
So what changes next?  Keep pushing those goal-posts.
My guess is that the government will eventually go full coercion: "Get the shot or we will lock you in your homes and then hunt you down house by house and jab it into your arms."  Although not publicized on main-stream news, there are currently massive protests globally pushing back against the authoritarian approach that is beginning to rhyme with totalitarian.  And in Thailand there will be a sub-set of the population who will probably explode if it comes down to forced vaccinations.  Just saying.

The question being asked is "Why are people refusing to get the shot?"  Well, there's an answer from someone who will only take the shot under duress.  I'm sure there are more reasons than that.  People have their own reasons.  Mine actually has more to do with my innate distrust of any institutions that seek to silence and censor any and all voices in the scientific community who don't accept the single narrative proposed by the CDC, WHO, and other EU agencies all of which are revolving doors between government regulation and pharmaceutical corporations.  Foxes in the hen-house.
https://fablesofaesop.com/the-hen-and-the-fox-barn.html

In the meanwhile I suggest that the PM read the following old fable by a wise fellow named Aesop.  Just that would probably give him a good start toward what he wishes to know.
https://fablesofaesop.com/the-boy-who-cried-wolf.html


 

must have felt good to get that off your chest ????

[Rhys]

Too proud, too much, it will not happen to me, I wear my trusty amulet...

[scorecard]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:23 PM, SteveJames said:

I already had Bells Palsy 2 years ago and have receipts with photo on from Pattaya hospital just before the Pandemic started and Sinovac has higher risk of Bells Palsy : https://news.yahoo.com/higher-risk-bells-palsy-sinovacs-004336902.html

 

People have personal reasons and its clear in many human rights documents that our fore-fathers fought for

 

I also don't want to try an experimental MRNA vaccine.   My wife is sensitive to allergies and we haven't been out in over 3months so we are not a risk to others

 

Quote from above: "People have personal reasons and its clear in many human rights documents that our fore-fathers fought for."

 

- Not applicable to the majority of the world.

- In regard to the country where the comment is applicable I rather doubt the founding fathers were focusing there discussions on pandemics. In any event when the FF gave their comments pandemics / treatments / vaccinations to ward off virus infections weren't in the daily/broad discussions.