Move to Thailand permanently with 20M baht.

[Justanotherone]

11 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

If you are not an active investor I would stick with large global funds managed or trackers from the big players.

 

You would be unlucky not to make 5%. over time (not necessarily every year!!)

 

I have a range of funds the worst, over the last 12 months has been 5%, the best 32%.

 

Please give names of those funds or does it hurt your return ?

[The Cipher]

10 minutes ago, Justanotherone said:

Any tips where to invest it?

 

Thai stock ?

 

I would love 5 percent interest

ETFs that track broad market indices should get you to 5% net while providing portfolio diversification. Average annual return of the S&P 500 has been approx 10%, and average annual return of MSCI World has been approx 11%. Those numbers are gross, but net would've still returned above 5% most years (and on average).

 

Equity volatility is generally higher than fixed income, so if you're thinking in terms of 'interest' then the asset class might not be for you. Would need more info on your situation to go into specifics.

[Will B Good]

3 minutes ago, Justanotherone said:

 

Please give names of those funds or does it hurt your return ?

Worst:  AXA WF Framlingtion UK (5.3%)

Best:    Baille Gifford American Class B Accumulation. (32.25%)

[Stevemercer]

You are only 45. I think the bigger problem is continuing to be productive and having a purpose and direction in your life (e.g. a satisfying working life).

 

Maybe you can rent/live in Thailand for 12 months while running your current business remotely (returning to Indonesia every 3 months for visa purposes and to help with your business).

 

I think after 12 months you will be well placed to consider any suitable business prospects in Thailand and whether you want to settle here.

 

As a side issue, I assume you have considered a country like Australia? You might qualify as a business migrant. Your English seems pretty good and your skill set would be employable in Australia.

[The Cipher]

8 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Worst:  AXA WF Framlingtion UK (5.3%)

Best:    Baille Gifford American Class B Accumulation. (32.25%)

This comment is not specifically directed at you and I am aware that you just answered the question that was asked.

 

But sometimes I read the investment threads on this forum and I am concerned that incomplete information can actually be worse than no information. For example I see a lot of questions that are really rudimentary - and there's nothing wrong with that! - but the answers to these questions rarely consider the suitability of a recommendation made, which could be problematic. And because the posters aren't experienced investors, they don't know what they should be asking or the risks they may be assuming.

 

Accordingly I've also noticed that there's a tendency to look at shiny return numbers without understanding the actual properties/characteristics of an investment. Also potentially problematic, and especially so for retirees.

 

Sometimes I muse about the idea of holding a little 'investing 101 town hall' for retirees, to give an overview of the foundational principles of portfolio management as well as an introduction to the various asset classes and their characteristics. Would also be able to answer questions then too. I've wanted to do this for the local Thais also, but language barrier would be a bigger issue there.

[Will B Good]

3 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

This comment is not specifically directed at you and I am aware that you just answered the question that was asked.

 

But sometimes I read the investment threads on this forum and I am concerned that incomplete information can actually be worse than no information. For example I see a lot of questions that are really rudimentary - and there's nothing wrong with that! - but the answers to these questions rarely consider the suitability of a recommendation made, which could be problematic. And because the posters aren't experienced investors, they don't know what they should be asking or the risks they may be assuming.

 

Accordingly I've also noticed that there's a tendency to look at shiny return numbers without understanding the actual properties/characteristics of an investment. Also potentially problematic, and especially so for retirees.

 

Sometimes I muse about the idea of holding a little 'investing 101 town hall' for retirees, to give an overview of the foundational principles of portfolio management as well as an introduction to the various asset classes and their characteristics. Would also be able to answer questions then too. I've wanted to do this for the local Thais also, but language barrier would be a bigger issue there.

I was going to add some caveats, seriously,........but the wife wants me to go shopping.....and I wouldn't want to miss out on that......????

[vukovar77]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:06 PM, cmarshall said:

You English is fine, but THB 20 million is not enough to retire at age 45.  Are you planning on finding a job in Thailand?  Will you be permitted to work here?

It is more than enough if You have place to live (buy cheap apartment or so) and much more affodorable ih You can speak Thai.30 .000 BHT is good enough for very good life near the sea .In Issan 20.000 BHT is enough.You can live with this money (without interest ) 55 years.

[vukovar77]

1 hour ago, Will B Good said:

Worst:  AXA WF Framlingtion UK (5.3%)

Best:    Baille Gifford American Class B Accumulation. (32.25%)

Very risky  investments.You must have a lot of knowledge and experience for investing.You can easy lose money in funds as well.

About 80-90% people lose money on stock markets.

[KhunLA]

39 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

Very risky  investments.You must have a lot of knowledge and experience for investing.You can easy lose money in funds as well.

About 80-90% people lose money on stock markets.

Nobody loses until you sell ... 

 

The only learning curve to investing in the markets, is knowing it's a scam (with few exceptions), only then, can you use the 'scams' and make a lot of money, and retire early & comfy.

[khunPer]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:17 AM, MrAscii said:

I was wondering if enough and possible, and what the best and safe steps to live and work in Thailand with around 20 millions bath capital?
Invest then work then married or what?

Your first and major concern would be permission to stay in the country, i.e. visa and eventual extensions of stay.

 

One possibility is to look at the Elite Card-option until you reach 50 years of age, and can stay on retirement extension; for 600k baht you can obtain a 5-year Elite Card-visa.

 

Another possibility is to invest in a company and stay on a business visa and extension based on work. That requires 2 million baht in capital, some Thai partners, and four employees for one work permit.

 

However, your about 20 million baht worth of capital - after buying a small condo - could gain some outcome to you from dividends if invested in stock market, lets say 18 million of them invested, which can give you between 3 percent and 4 percent dividend after withheld dividend tax. That will give you between 540,000 baht to 720,000 baht in annual income after tax, or around 45,000 baht to 60,000 baht per month, which is enough to life a relative Okay life-style, especially when already having a condo - many expat retirees life for that level of monthly income in Thailand - however not enough for an up-end more hi-so life-style.

 

With your skills in programming there might be possibilities for some online work for clients abroad, as eventual supplement to your investor-income, if you don't find a job domestically, and instead stay in Thailand based on a work permit; citizens from neighboring countries have slightly easier access to stay based upon work than other foreigners.

 

If you at some point getting married to a Thai, you can stay on extension based on marriage, and you will also be allowed to work on that type extension of stay.

 

You have a number of possibilities to choose from with a condo and 20 million baht in your hand...????

[4MyEgo]

7 hours ago, MrAscii said:

Thank you. very valuable advice. Yes I know 45 is still young. Thats why I will think a possibilities included try to run my current company remotely and I'm aware about the marriage issue. Thank you.

Welcome.

 

If you can run the company remotely, why not, only additional advice I would give you is to check what tax implications you might have from your home country.

 

An example, if you were Australian like myself which I know you aren't as you already mentioned where you live, suffice to say in Australia as my residency status has changed to a non-resident now as I live in Thailand, I would pay 32% tax from every $ I earned within Australia, up to $80k AUD then it increases from there, also Australia taxes us on our worldwide income if we retain our residency status which is beneficial for some who have property back there, wish to vote and hang onto Medicare.

 

If you don't have to pay tax, and you can run the company remotely that would be a bonus to you, either way, you don't require much to live here so any small gains would be worth it, keep your mind active and wouldn't get bored.

 

Glad to hear you know about the marriage thing, some people just don't go in with their eyes open and wear the hearts on their sleeves and think the woman they love will never do them wrong, well, if you put your finances in anyone else's hands, expect the worst I say as you just gave up your future and power.

 

Again, good luck.

[MrAscii]

7 hours ago, whiteman said:

Just to give you an idea of how thing go in Thailand I arrived here at the age of 57 with 40 million Bhat the N.Z.$ was getting 25bhat at the time.

 

Today I have 25.7 million Bhat left I bought a home for my still partner of 18 years now for 10 million 8 years ago in Thailand.   The N.Z.$ has gone down 8% = 3.8 million Bhat   today the nz$ gets 23

 

=== 40million

-      3.8          nz $ dropping 8%

-      10   house

       26.2 million            I still have 25.7 million   I am now 74   in April next  75           Oh I forgot and I bought  brand new Merc  8 years ago back then worth 3 million.

 

I have had a bloody good time here my partner is 25 years younger than me and Thai.

 

So you see if one plans right and has other income streams life is good     Yes I do have health cover cost me 10k a year  well worth it. I have never claimed fingers x 

 

 

Thank you for your sharing. Thank you.

[MrAscii]

7 hours ago, Stevemercer said:

You are only 45. I think the bigger problem is continuing to be productive and having a purpose and direction in your life (e.g. a satisfying working life).

 

Maybe you can rent/live in Thailand for 12 months while running your current business remotely (returning to Indonesia every 3 months for visa purposes and to help with your business).

 

I think after 12 months you will be well placed to consider any suitable business prospects in Thailand and whether you want to settle here.

 

As a side issue, I assume you have considered a country like Australia? You might qualify as a business migrant. Your English seems pretty good and your skill set would be employable in Australia.

Ah, correct. Most of 45 years people still need to satisfying working lifestyle.
That's why I doubt that I can live day by day in a new country without any daily business routine.
I will find out about migration to Australia, I consider Thai as number 1 choice because as far as I know their working culture, daily social living, road condition, food price are almost the same with Indonesia.

 

Thank you for your valuable advice. Thank you.

 

[MrAscii]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

Your first and major concern would be permission to stay in the country, i.e. visa and eventual extensions of stay.

 

One possibility is to look at the Elite Card-option until you reach 50 years of age, and can stay on retirement extension; for 600k baht you can obtain a 5-year Elite Card-visa.

 

Another possibility is to invest in a company and stay on a business visa and extension based on work. That requires 2 million baht in capital, some Thai partners, and four employees for one work permit.

 

However, your about 20 million baht worth of capital - after buying a small condo - could gain some outcome to you from dividends if invested in stock market, lets say 18 million of them invested, which can give you between 3 percent and 4 percent dividend after withheld dividend tax. That will give you between 540,000 baht to 720,000 baht in annual income after tax, or around 45,000 baht to 60,000 baht per month, which is enough to life a relative Okay life-style, especially when already having a condo - many expat retirees life for that level of monthly income in Thailand - however not enough for an up-end more hi-so life-style.

 

With your skills in programming there might be possibilities for some online work for clients abroad, as eventual supplement to your investor-income, if you don't find a job domestically, and instead stay in Thailand based on a work permit; citizens from neighboring countries have slightly easier access to stay based upon work than other foreigners.

 

If you at some point getting married to a Thai, you can stay on extension based on marriage, and you will also be allowed to work on that type extension of stay.

 

You have a number of possibilities to choose from with a condo and 20 million baht in your hand...????

Thank you for your valuable advice. Thank you.

[MrAscii]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Welcome.

 

If you can run the company remotely, why not, only additional advice I would give you is to check what tax implications you might have from your home country.

 

An example, if you were Australian like myself which I know you aren't as you already mentioned where you live, suffice to say in Australia as my residency status has changed to a non-resident now as I live in Thailand, I would pay 32% tax from every $ I earned within Australia, up to $80k AUD then it increases from there, also Australia taxes us on our worldwide income if we retain our residency status which is beneficial for some who have property back there, wish to vote and hang onto Medicare.

 

If you don't have to pay tax, and you can run the company remotely that would be a bonus to you, either way, you don't require much to live here so any small gains would be worth it, keep your mind active and wouldn't get bored.

 

Glad to hear you know about the marriage thing, some people just don't go in with their eyes open and wear the hearts on their sleeves and think the woman they love will never do them wrong, well, if you put your finances in anyone else's hands, expect the worst I say as you just gave up your future and power.

 

Again, good luck.

Thank you for your valuable advice. Yes, run my current business remotely is number one choice. I run it since 2012 and already have quite alot of customers.

Thank you.

 

[cmarshall]

7 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

It is more than enough if You have place to live (buy cheap apartment or so) and much more affodorable ih You can speak Thai.30 .000 BHT is good enough for very good life near the sea .In Issan 20.000 BHT is enough.You can live with this money (without interest ) 55 years.

If you are satisfied with a life of poverty in the boonies.

[vukovar77]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Nobody loses until you sell ... 

 

The only learning curve to investing in the markets, is knowing it's a scam (with few exceptions), only then, can you use the 'scams' and make a lot of money, and retire early & comfy.

I do not know about Your trading experience,but I trade more than 20 years on stock markets in USA,EU and SET.You lose when your market price is lower than you pay .If you do not cut losses on time (S/L order) You are in serious trouble.Without I-Algo trading now and S/L You have no chance to "win" market .Even on famous and great stocks ,You will lose if you pay too much when entering in position.

[vukovar77]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

If you are satisfied with a life of poverty in the boonies.

Not true at all.Many expats live very unhealthy life,drink too much,eat only western food,pay a lot for "night life".If You have your place to live,You can have great life for 30 K .If You eat Thai food and speak Thai,your life can be even far cheaper.

 

[vukovar77]

5 hours ago, khunPer said:

Your first and major concern would be permission to stay in the country, i.e. visa and eventual extensions of stay.

 

One possibility is to look at the Elite Card-option until you reach 50 years of age, and can stay on retirement extension; for 600k baht you can obtain a 5-year Elite Card-visa.

 

Another possibility is to invest in a company and stay on a business visa and extension based on work. That requires 2 million baht in capital, some Thai partners, and four employees for one work permit.

 

However, your about 20 million baht worth of capital - after buying a small condo - could gain some outcome to you from dividends if invested in stock market, lets say 18 million of them invested, which can give you between 3 percent and 4 percent dividend after withheld dividend tax. That will give you between 540,000 baht to 720,000 baht in annual income after tax, or around 45,000 baht to 60,000 baht per month, which is enough to life a relative Okay life-style, especially when already having a condo - many expat retirees life for that level of monthly income in Thailand - however not enough for an up-end more hi-so life-style.

 

With your skills in programming there might be possibilities for some online work for clients abroad, as eventual supplement to your investor-income, if you don't find a job domestically, and instead stay in Thailand based on a work permit; citizens from neighboring countries have slightly easier access to stay based upon work than other foreigners.

 

If you at some point getting married to a Thai, you can stay on extension based on marriage, and you will also be allowed to work on that type extension of stay.

 

You have a number of possibilities to choose from with a condo and 20 million baht in your hand...????

Investing in stock market is very risky .Now most stocks are overvalued and You need knowledge and experience .You can easy end in a big loses.Investing in Elite Visa is not wise.Marriage Visa is OK and A-O visa is pretty easy to obtain.

[khunPer]

6 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

Investing in stock market is very risky .Now most stocks are overvalued and You need knowledge and experience .You can easy end in a big loses.Investing in Elite Visa is not wise.Marriage Visa is OK and A-O visa is pretty easy to obtain.

Did you read the OP? He is unmarried and 45 years old, so your visa suggestions won't work, whilst 600k baht for an Elite Card, when having 20 million baht plus enough for buying a condo, is within reasonable reach in my modest opinion, until you reach 50 years of age.

 

Do you know about Thai stocks? USA, and especially Denmark, are countries with high priced value stocks mainly bought for capital gain rather than dividend - i.e. P/E (price vs. earning) can be extremely high - whilst numerous Thai stock have a reasonable price P/E often in the level recommended by successful investor Warren Buffet, and furthermore pays a relative high dividend, but the capital gains are limited. Furthermore Thai stock have the benefit, as invested value and dividends are in the currency the money is going to be spend, so currency exchange risk is eliminated. If you invest for dividends, then you won't loose anything, if you don't need to sell...

[vukovar77]

17 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Did you read the OP? He is unmarried and 45 years old, so your visa suggestions won't work, whilst 600k baht for an Elite Card, when having 20 million baht plus enough for buying a condo, is within reasonable reach in my modest opinion, until you reach 50 years of age.

 

Do you know about Thai stocks? USA, and especially Denmark, are countries with high priced value stocks mainly bought for capital gain rather than dividend - i.e. P/E (price vs. earning) can be extremely high - whilst numerous Thai stock have a reasonable price P/E often in the level recommended by successful investor Warren Buffet, and furthermore pays a relative high dividend, but the capital gains are limited. Furthermore Thai stock have the benefit, as invested value and dividends are in the currency the money is going to be spend, so currency exchange risk is eliminated. If you invest for dividends, then you won't loose anything, if you don't need to sell...

He can get O-A Visa - 1 year in his country and than extend in Thailand.ED Visa is option as well.Elite Visa is worst option,from my point of view.

I trade on SET 5 years.Most Thai stocks are mostly high priced.Thai funds ,most of them have heavy losses ,even infastructure funds.Investing in Thai stocks for dividends is very bad "job" for a last 2 years.Thai economy is in a very bad shape.Maybe the worst in southeast asia.GDP will rise maybe 0.5-1 % this year.I am sure you do not trade with success on SET and compare P/E in USA and Thailand is pretty nonsence.

[1FinickyOne]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:46 AM, The Cipher said:

invest the remainder of the ~฿19M earning an average return of 5%

Where are you getting 5%? 

[vukovar77]

7 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

He can get O-A Visa - 1 year in his country and than extend in Thailand.ED Visa is option as well.Elite Visa is worst option,from my point of view.

I trade on SET 5 years.Most Thai stocks are mostly high priced.Thai funds ,most of them have heavy losses ,even infastructure funds.Investing in Thai stocks for dividends is very bad "job" for a last 2 years.Thai economy is in a very bad shape.Maybe the worst in southeast asia.GDP will rise maybe 0.5-1 % this year.I am sure you do not trade with success on SET and compare P/E in USA and Thailand is pretty nonsence.

Aa far as I know Buffet does not have Thai stocks in his portfolio.

[1FinickyOne]

ok - never mind - I see you have another post on ETFs... though there have been periods of time where the markets go sideways... and we have had a great run for a long time... 

 

He is 45 and has a longer time frame than most retirees... but still no guarantee...

 

As a retiree, my time frame is shorter... and over the last couple of years, I have pulled back on my positions and have an increasingly smaller amount invested. 

 

 

[Happyman108]

3 hours ago, MrAscii said:

Thank you for your valuable advice. Yes, run my current business remotely is number one choice. I run it since 2012 and already have quite alot of customers.

Thank you.

 

if you're back to Thailand again maybe can consider living in Chiangmai for few months instead, I guess you'll love this slower, cheaper and more friendly city.......Chiangmai enak juga.

 

 

[rickudon]

First, the visas. As said, cannot get a retirement visa until 50, so need to consider what visa you can use until then. If the elite, need to consider the cost of that. Maybe the elite until 50, the 5 year option. After that have many choices.

 

Where to live? Suggest you visit several areas initially, to decide where you want to stay. You have plenty of time.

 

Risks.

 

You have to consider at least 40 years - a lot can change. Bangkok may be at severe risk of flooding by then. Immigration laws could change. Exchange rates could change. Inflation could rise. Need to consider the impacts of all these risks (and others). Do you have any sort of pension due to you when older?

And, always have a plan B, even if it is Indonesia. As a foreigner, you are always a guest, and the 'no vacancies' sign can always go up on Thailand's door.

 

I have been here 11 years, and a lot has changed. Exchange rates, interest rates, marriage and children have all eaten away at my capital, and that 6 million baht i had when i made my plans is now a lot less; fortunately i have pension income or i would be leaving. Plan for the worst, enjoy the best.

 

 

[pomchop]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:06 PM, cmarshall said:

You English is fine, but THB 20 million is not enough to retire at age 45.  Are you planning on finding a job in Thailand?  Will you be permitted to work here?

OP English is likely better than 99% of the English teachers, professors, government officials, as well as a lot of expats whose native language is English.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

He can get O-A Visa - 1 year in his country and than extend in Thailand.ED Visa is option as well.Elite Visa is worst option,from my point of view.

I trade on SET 5 years.Most Thai stocks are mostly high priced.Thai funds ,most of them have heavy losses ,even infastructure funds.Investing in Thai stocks for dividends is very bad "job" for a last 2 years.Thai economy is in a very bad shape.Maybe the worst in southeast asia.GDP will rise maybe 0.5-1 % this year.I am sure you do not trade with success on SET and compare P/E in USA and Thailand is pretty nonsence.

Thanks for your reply, but have you checked O-A qualifications?

Quote

1.1 Applicant must be aged 50 years and over (on the day of submitting application).

Official source HERE.
OP is 45 years old, ED visa limits your movements and force you to study, but a solution for some on low budget.

 

Sorry to hear about your loss on the Thai stock market.

 

I also have SET stocks, and I've also been doing the game the five full years. The result of course depends of choice of stocks in one's portfolio. Mine have paid good dividends, my portfolio gave me after tax 2.9% in 2017, 3,1% in 2018, 3.3% in 2019, 2.7% in 2020 (annus horribilis), and so far 3.2% in 2021. The portfolio is after 5 years still in a capital gain that equals the Thai consumer price index, so no loss of capital so far per today with the new Covid variant adjustments on the stock markets, and I've got satisfying dividends during all five years...

 

P/E is an important factor to look at - among a number of factors - and yes, of course you can compare P/E across nations, P/E is an indicator of price paid for company earnings.

 

As I said, you can choose a portfolio that pays a high dividend with limited capital fluctuation, some Thai stocks can pay quite high dividends, more than 4 percent after tax is possible...????

[The Cipher]

2 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Where are you getting 5%? 

 

ok - never mind - I see you have another post on ETFs... though there have been periods of time where the markets go sideways...

 

He is 45 and has a longer time frame than most retirees... but still no guarantee...

 

As a retiree, my time frame is shorter... and over the last couple of years, I have pulled back on my positions and have an increasingly smaller amount invested. 

To clarify, I also stress tested OP's portfolio under a 3% net real return assumption using the original assets of ฿20M and with the requirement to last through age 100. A stress test that, incidentally, the original portfolio failed. (Then OP turned out to have at least double the originally disclosed assets, so all's well that ends well.)

 

In general though I'm aware that some retirees shouldn't necessarily be taking material amounts of equity exposure risk and I try and stress suitability in every piece of advice I give here.

 

---Warning: Going down the rabbit hole for a second---

Retiree portfolio positioning at this time is actually pretty challenging. A lot of people forget that cash is actually an asset class, and that cash heavy portfolios are going to be pounded by inflation in the short term (possibly for the next few years), doubly so for people whose pensions are fixed and don't track inflation. So staying in cash has risks (guaranteed loss in purchasing power).

 

But we're looking at more restrictive policy at an uncertain future time, which tend to be negative for bond prices, equity values, and other risk-on assets. If tighter policy is slower or inflation higher for whatever reason than expected, you almost have to move up the risk curve to try and beat purchasing power loss. But a lump-sum allocation now, at values that may be elevated, followed by a rate rise or any kind of pullback shortly thereafter, would also be painful. Especially on the shorter timeframe that older people have to work with.

 

I tend to think that the right move for a retiree who has missed the preceding bull run to this point would be to dollar-cost-average their stash into a diversified mix of traditional assets over the next few years (can be as simple as an 80/20 portfolio) , with specifics dependent on their individual financial situations. But the real lesson here should be: educate yourself on basic financial management and start investing early - tell your kids.

[ChaiyaTH]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:27 AM, MrAscii said:

Thank you for your reply.

I understand that Indonesia is cheaper than Thailand. Thailand economic is stronger than Indonesia.

But a lot of things make me consider to move out from the country.

Thailand is way cheaper than Indonesia. Living off 20M baht and asking wether that is possible must be the best joke, I did it with 1M. 

 

Most western people start or retire with a fraction of that amount. I guess its true that most rich people are not thé brightest.

 

A fool and his money part soon enough, to ask this tells your future.

Edited November 26, 2021 by ChaiyaTH