US democracy summit is ‘pure politics’ – FM Don

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

IMO the rather idiosyncratic manner in US's selection and invitation for the summit is a poor thought out foreign policy. It send a mixed signal to friends and allies and deepen their views that US can't be trusted like in Afghanistan. In Thailand there are groups of professionals, politicians and youths that see US as an unworthy friend and this only benefit China's influence. US got a lot to do to build trust and goodwill with Thailand to balance the geo-political divergence. 

So you want the US to lie about the government here? Do you think Thai people are all stupid? While I agree that the U.S. has perception problems as you describe and they are the result of own goals like the previous illiberal isolationist pro authoritarian president but lying won't help repair damage.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The U.S. has very good relations with countries that didn't get invited to a democracy conference. Such as Thailand and Singapore. Being a democracy is not necessary for there to be good relations.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, flossie35 said:

And since WWII the US has gone round destroying democracies, usually at the behest of US corporations. Starting with Guatemala around 1950, on behalf of United Fruit. Iran on behalf of oil companies. And so on. 

There is that dark history sure especially related to the cold war, anti communism. But I'm not seeing that recently. Like when a Latin American country votes in a leftist populist the U.S  isn't in general pushing coups. You could mention Venezuela but they're not a democracy.

[wwest5829]

2 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

...and what about the rampage through the Middle East, flossie?

   Who was cheerleading for that?

Big oil???

[Bluespunk]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

Foreign Minister Don Pramudwinai on Thursday dismissed the “Summit for Democracy” to be hosted by the US and to which Thailand was not invited as “nothing more than pure politics.”

Well, yes...democracy is all about politics Don...

[Eric Loh]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So you want the US to lie about the government here? Do you think Thai people are all stupid? While I agree that the U.S. has perception problems as you describe and they are the result of own goals like the previous illiberal isolationist pro authoritarian president but lying won't help repair damage.

I fully agreed that Thailand should not be invited especially this government which in my vew is not democratically elected. Thais are not stupid but divided on their views whether US is a reliable and trustworthy friend. What I am getting at is that the US's foreign policy should be more coherent and should take steps to lessen the anxiety about their true intention not only in ASEAN but the world in general. 

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

6 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Lol Bearing in mind most SEA states also do not qualify. Sorry mate, that don’t wash. It’s aimed as squarely at you and yours as it is China and Russia. Children. 

Philipines, Malaysia & Indonesia are invited and not Singapore. I don't see the rationale behind USA's method of selection. Pakistan and Botswana are invited and are head scratchers. There are politics meddling and Don has a point. 

Singapore isn't a democracy.

 

Pakistan has the bomb.

 

Botswana has diamonds.

 

Thailand hasn't a clue.

 

 

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

I fully agreed that Thailand should not be invited especially this government which in my vew is not democratically elected. Thais are not stupid but divided on their views whether US is a reliable and trustworthy friend. What I am getting at is that the US's foreign policy should be more coherent and should take steps to lessen the anxiety about their true intention not only in ASEAN but the world in general. 

Easier said than done, unfortunately 

Ideally there should be a large amount of continuity on foreign policy when a U.S. president is elected. But that went down the drain with the last potus  who positioned himself as a lover of authoritarian dictatorships and a hater of foreign policy cooperation with long standing and natural closest friends as in western Europe. Given that he could soon take power again even by coup, of course the world is correct to back away from trust of the U.S.

The U.S. is indeed a backsliding democracy at real risk of permanently losing it entirely.

But Thailand already slid. Thus no invite.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Jingthing

[Longwood50]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

It’s nothing more than pure politics

When is anything in the USA not done out of "pure politics"  I suspect the same is true throughout the world.  From what I can see, not any  different here in Thailand.  

[ikke1959]

In a democracy there is freedom of speech, a government not controlled by the army, free elections, and everyone with the same rights. Instead of this country with its own democracy...

[metisdead]

Please use discretion in your references to the government. Phrases which can be considered as anti-coup will be removed. Referring to Thailand or the government as a dictatorship, military dictatorship or other such terms will be removed. Any posts which can be construed as rumor mongering are not allowed.

[Benmart]

6 hours ago, seedy said:

USA - democracy !!! 555

Corporatocracy - yes

Doesn't seem to present anything past the triple !!! and 555. Perhaps it is merely your dislike of the country and not the relevant issues that your axe is grinding.

[rudi49jr]

He’s not entirely wrong, of course, but he and his army buddies in the cabinet, especially the PM who got to power by staging a coup, are not really in a position to moan about it, are they?

[Andycoops]

Oh dear, more loss of face on the international stage, Too and his corrupt cronies must be all in a tis.

 

Isn't it time to pull down the democracy monument in favour of some thing more authoritarian.

[mtls2005]

Yet, for another 110 countries it seems like a reasonable event?

 

https://www.state.gov/participant-list-the-summit-for-democracy/

 

 

What better place to tout "thai style democracy" and "the sufficiency economy"?

 

Or right, you weren't invited.

 

FM Pramudwinai has degrees from UCLA and Tufts.

 

 

[greeneking]

24 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

Oh dear, more loss of face on the international stage, Too and his corrupt cronies must be all in a tis.

 

Isn't it time to pull down the democracy monument in favour of some thing more authoritarian.

Could be on the 'to do' list.' Ratchadamnoen Avenue has been largely unoccupied for some time now.

[flossie35]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There is that dark history sure especially related to the cold war, anti communism. But I'm not seeing that recently. Like when a Latin American country votes in a leftist populist the U.S  isn't in general pushing coups. You could mention Venezuela but they're not a democracy.

The dark history sometimes used the cold war as an excuse - eg by labelling Allende as a communist when he wasn't - but it was really all to do with corporate interests, In Chile including Pepsicola! What country lets fizzy drink makers dictate foreign policy?

Nicaragua and Venezuela have just had elections which foreign invigilators seem to have found fair. In both cases the  leftwing govts won. So who says Venezuela is not a democracy? Even Guaido is reconsidering his position. And US was saying before the elections that they would be rigged - they may have changed their tune since, but I've not seen any more pronouncements. And they still persist after 62 years with their embargo on Cuba, despite the 15 Nov march being a flop. 

US seem to have been involved, via their stooge OAS, with the coup in Bolivia. 

It would be nice if the US were to be a force for good in the world but they need to get their act together. 

[flossie35]

5 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

...and what about the rampage through the Middle East, flossie?

   Who was cheerleading for that?

Mainly UK. But not with my support, nor that of many others.

[Stocky]

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Botswana has diamonds.

It may have diamonds, but Botswana is a democracy, diamonds haven't created a kleptocracy. It is a country investing in its future, it spends twice as much in terms of % GDP on education than Thailand.  

[Eric Loh]

4 hours ago, Stocky said:

Why? Botswana is Africa's most peaceful and well run democracy, and I think its oldest. It's also the least corrupt country in Africa ranking 35th in the global Transparency Index, Thailand sits at 104.

The reason as to why I cited Botswana is that the Botswana Democratic Party won every election since independence in 1966. Similar to Singapore where the People Action Party won every election since independence and perceived as not democratic enough for the summit invitation. 

 

[Stocky]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

The reason as to why I cited Botswana is that the Botswana Democratic Party won every election since independence in 1966. Similar to Singapore where the People Action Party won every election since independence and perceived as not democratic enough for the summit invitation. 

 

Both are classified as 'flawed democracies' in the Economist  Democracy Index, though so is France. Botswana ranks 33, Singapore 74.

 

Same same but different.

[zzaa09]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So you want the US to lie about the government here? Do you think Thai people are all stupid? While I agree that the U.S. has perception problems as you describe and they are the result of own goals like the previous illiberal isolationist pro authoritarian president but lying won't help repair damage.

Yet, for decades, the U.S. turned a blind eye to the ever-present Thai political corrupted system of skullduggery just so they could create a self-imposed means to an end as it applied to the geopolitical region. 

 

As the U.S. has very long history of these same types of dealing the world over. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet, for decades, the U.S. turned a blind eye to the ever-present Thai political corrupted system of skullduggery just so they could create a self-imposed means to an end as it applied to the geopolitical region. 

 

As the U.S. has very long history of these same types of dealing the world over. 

Look there are two major powers in the world NOW. Neither is saintly but overall which is the less horrible?

[zzaa09]

Nothing more embarrassingly dreamy than a blind and ignorant culturally-centric flag-waver and weak apologist.

[gearbox]

13 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Philipines, Malaysia & Indonesia are invited and not Singapore. I don't see the rationale behind USA's method of selection. Pakistan and Botswana are invited and are head scratchers. There are politics meddling and Don has a point. 

Mr Don doesn't seem to be too upset on the photo. Thailand is not a democracy for sure, but even if it was, what's in for them at this so called "democracy summit" ? The most they'll get is to cop some bullying to drop Chinese investments here and there. If the Americans don't want them to buy Chinese phones, just ship to Thailand free iPhones, I'm sure the Thais won't refuse the offer.

 

[mistral53]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Look there are two major powers in the world NOW. Neither is saintly but overall which is the less horrible?

Well - one of them bombs...bombs...bombs.....all over the world to spread democracy, and the other one builds bridges, railways, ports, highways, hospitals etc all over the world's poor countries - should we ask them? or the self-appointed experts on TVF?

[seedy]

18 hours ago, Benmart said:

 Perhaps it is merely your dislike of the country and not the relevant issues that your axe is grinding.

Had an American wife, and have many American friends. So that boat don't float.

USA has been the worlds bully since the end of WW2 - as anyone with a smattering of knowledge about history can ascertain easily.

Ever since the President Coolidge in 1925 - "The Business of America is Business" - this is who runs the country.

Hence the Corporatocracy post

[GinBoy2]

15 hours ago, Stocky said:

Both are classified as 'flawed democracies' in the Economist  Democracy Index, though so is France. Botswana ranks 33, Singapore 74.

 

Same same but different.

Well having lived in Singapore for years, I'm gonna way in on that. Botswana I have no clue.

 

Singapore is a single party State masquerading as a democracy.

 

They have a great trick of bankrupting opposition leaders, then banging them up in Changi, often without charge for years.

They are usually charged under the Internal Security Act, which can result in you disappearing for years

 

My favorite quote regarding Singapore came from a former British Governor of Hong Kong, Chris Patten

 

....Disneyland with the Death Penalty.

 

Don't get me wrong, we loved living there, but you need to understand what underpins that disney life you lead

Edited November 27, 2021 by GinBoy2

[meechai]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:54 AM, webfact said:

Foreign Minister Don Pramudwinai on Thursday dismissed the “Summit for Democracy” to be hosted by the US and to which Thailand was not invited as “nothing more than pure politics.”

 

And what do you call this odd system in Thailand? Where the military & police stands down (commit treason) while the rabble go crazy & even overrun government house disallowing voting etc creating the excuse ... to later step in  & save the country they failed to protect  ...Stage yet another Junta to overthrow a democratically elected government

 

Then after years of dictatorship control "stage" a election after you have salted the Parliament with hundreds of your men ???

 

Yes that is not pure politics it is pure corruption tolerated/bought & paid off

Edited November 27, 2021 by meechai

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

Don't get me wrong, we loved living there, but you need to understand what underpins that disney life you lead

Certainly no perfect democracy anywhere in the world but I will be satisfied with a high living standard, low crime rate, healthiest country in the world, less corrupted country, easiest place to do business, universal healthcare and still get a chance to vote every 4 years.