Thailand again signals move away from mass-market foreign tourism with falling numbers

[thaibook]

3 hours ago, Confuscious said:

I was 3 weeks ago in South Jomtien, near Ban Saray.
Hig rise condominiums with price starting at 4 million baht.
Prices that are out of the reach of most (s)expats with a pension.
And most of these condominiums WERE SOLD OUT!!!!

Condominium owners families enjoying a day at the local swimming pool that looked like a swimming pool in Singapore.
Very clean and neat.
Very few, almost none, Esan hookers around.

 

In the evening, condominium owners started to return home from work in Ferrari's, Porsche's, Lambo's, etc.
All cars with price tags starting around 6 million baht.
Ordering a dinner at the condominium of a few 10 thousand baht for them and their family.

Face it.
The days of the (s)expats who came to Thailand to marry a Thai hooker from Pattaya or Phuket, buy a house upcountry in the rice fields of Nakhon Nowhere and going to the Maharat when somethings goes awry are over.
Thailand doesn't want you anymore.

1 single of these condominium owners spend more in 1 day in Thailand than a (s)expat and his Esan family in a whole year and they are not whining like you.

 

Were they farang or Thai?  If Farang, were they tourists or immigrants?  With 6million Baht cars I doubt they are tourists.  How many are there?  We have just heard there are/were 900,000 visa runners generating 324 billion baht a year.  

 

How many 6million Baht cars are sold each year in Thailand?  500?, 250?  How many to farangs, 25%, 10%?  How much do they spend a year?  It is not how much individuals in diffent groups spend but how much th egroup as a whole spends that matters. 

 

Are you sure they do not have the odd mistress or two elsewhere - and send money there too? 

[allyoops]

Maybe about 10% of the tourism infrastructure is set up for high end touriists and places like Pattaya have absoluteley nothing to offer unless they build casinos. Even then only a small percentage of tourists attracted would be high class. Let's face it , they are talking about wealthy people and that doesn't always make them high class. It would take a decade  or more to make any meaningful changes and in the meantime millions of jobs lost.

[thaibook]

3 hours ago, dutchweller said:

Thailand needs to be a high quality tourist destination first!!

If you are a High roller Tourist there is far better places to go and be treated with respect, feel valued and relax than Thailand.
 

IMO Thailand needs to:
Legalize Weed
Legalize Prostitution

Relax All laws on Alcohol
Legalize Gambling

Aim for Mass Tourism

Let the Hordes come for fast and free time .
Thailand should do what it did best back in the 80-90's a cheap, sleazy and dirty place.

 

There is NO WAY IN HELL Thailand will ever be considered a Top spot for a high roller.
If these morons at TAT keep this up Thailand has NO HOPE of recovering!

The mentality of Thailand with its Corruption, Lack of accountability when things go wrong due to negligence or out right dishonesty and Total Lack of what a real first class destination is.

The must save Face at all cost and never admit wrong doing mentality that is part of a the Thai/Chinese psyche is what will forever stop Thailand being anything close to a high tier Hospitality tourist destination.

If TAT think Tourists with money promised a 5 star fault free vacation and receive anything but what they paid for will go away quietly and accept the old Thai Smile and TIT attitude, still pay full price and come back to give them a second chance they are DREAMING!

 

 
 

Face is very important.  Some may remember that many years ago a Thai business man or diplomat stole jewelry from a high ranking Saudi, in Saudi.  The Thai refused to admit it and the Thai government refused to allow any investigation.  As a result Saudi blacklisted Thailand, no Thai workers allowed, no Saudi tourists, no Saudi investment, etc.  But the Thai government did not change tack, to do so would have been a serious oss of face.

[Cabradelmar]

Casinos, marketing to "wealthy tourist" (whom have never chosen Thailand) and digital nomads ("wealthy" digital nomads no less; whatever that means) are all gimmicks of an organization out of ideas. You want similar 2019 numbers, reinstate 2019 protocols (but for the vaccinated)... End all forms of quarantine, end supplemental insurance requirements for tourist, reinstate pre-covid visa rules, and do rapid antigen testing at all boarder crossings. 

 

Globally, international arrivals are still at only 65% of pre-covid levels. It many never fully recover at this rate with omicron emerging, but if you want a larger percentage of those who do travel you need to make it easier for them, while managing the covid risk. Selfishly, I've never liked high traffic tourist areas. But for those who reley on tourism for their living, something needs to give.

[HAPPYNUFF]

The government  admits tourism   accounted for  up to 20 %  of Thailands GDP, yet they want to change the model, without any real idea   how to go about it,  or if it will even be a success.      When I was young(er),  seedy and cheap was good fun, but I am   a bit picky now,   and Thailand certainly needs a bloody good spring clean  if  they hope to attract quality (read RICH)  tourists.   I can just imagine  Mr and Mrs  Loaded,  walking  down   a main  street here,  falling into  holes in the footpath, dodging motor cyclists on the  same path,  street vendors blocking the way, Soi dogs   chasing them,  dodging bundles of electricty wires hanging from lopsided   posts,  getting scammed by   taxi drivers and  vendors,  and going back to their country telling all and sundry what a wonderful time they had..NOT

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, nchuckle said:

Outside of a black swan event like a pandemic,a well maintained tourist industry is very robust and lucrative. Countries like Spain and Ski resorts illustrate that. What 'other sources of revenue'? Thailand’s appalling education system and lack of skills don’t equip it to compete in more advanced industries and even if that could be addressed today (it can’t under current governance and ingrained attitudes) it would take a generation to overcome. No, the relatively low skillset required for a tourist industry is ideally suited to Thailand,but they are in severe danger of losing even that to a substantial degree by having no vision ,apart from wishful thinking, to address a recovery of the industry compounded by a delusional,arrogant and complacent attitude imagining tourists are banging at the door to get back in previous numbers. It’s going to a painful awakening..

The xenophobic glasses again.

[thecyclist]

It's just talk. Sounds good but nothing will come of it. They have been announcing the shutting down of the sex industry for decades. 

[thaibook]

Would someone please say when the 90 day reporting requirement was introduced.

 

When could one enter the Kingdom for longer than 30 days without a visa and when the rule allowing only one extension (other than if married to a Thai) was introduced.

 

When was the law changed to allow a Thai woman married to a foreigner to own land?

Before then, was an extension based on marriage available?

 

 

  

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, rct99q said:

Yes, but the main focus of the article was tourism. And a healthy tourism sector can add to a countries well being. Very few can survive on just tourism. Not sure your age, but today's youth have more opportunities to travel than any previous generation. 

 

You only have to look at the comments on this forum to see how unreliable people can be, so a people based income stream can never be seen to be healthy.

Yes today's youth can travel, that does not mean the same will apply to tomorrow's youth. Past performance offers no guarantees.

Diversity is the only way forward.

[VBF]

9 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

No wonder if the Government think that they know everything best. Years ago there were backpackers coming to THailand to stay here, sometimes, work/teach and spend ther money with travelling around. But the Government changed visa rules and ordered strict rules to get a workpermit and was not qualified was not welcome anymore. Than there were people with a wife and maybe some kids. The wife had a shop or a small restaurant, and they could earn a living. but the foreigners who could have the money for marriage visa or retirement visa came on tourists visa that they renewed with border runs. But the Government decicde it was illegal to do so many times and now they have left. Wife probably no shop or restaurant anymore. 

Than the people coming to live here. I was once at immigration offce and the officer was very unfriendly to an eldery couple. They had bought a house, furniture, a car, and invested so several millions of THB. But the officer  said that the needed to have a bank account with 800.000 each on it. The man almost cried and said look what we invested and bought and I don't have that money anymore. I don't know what the result was because I was finished and left the office, but it is just an example how you don't handle people who want to come to live here.  If the Government has a bit of brains they shojld know that retirees have kids, who will come to visit their parents, grandparents and that are tourists too. But by making the rules very strict, and change every year almost to more paperwork, it is not welcoming for foreigners to live here,  even if they have a lot of money. 90 days reports/renew the visa with every year the same or more paperwork and requirements, no it gives a feeling that you are a criminal/ an unwanted guest, and than there so many other issues as double pricing, and lately the court that ruled that foreigners can pay more for the same treatment because they have more money. You can destroy a reputation easily, but it is so difficult to rebuild it...That is why Thailand is not popular anymore with tourists. Treat them as guests, welcome them warmly instead of grumpy officers at the borders and long cues. Get rid of the 90 days report it is no use and double pricing, and try to attrack more tourists, by less hurdles for visa or entry the country. It will take years to recover but that is the Government to blame.   

I like that post. ????

To add to it, whilst we're presently complaining about how often the "entry during Covid" rules change, we really ought to remember that, as that post says, the Thai authorities have a fine history of changing visa rules at a moment's notice.

Even as  a tourist, I've been affected by such rule changes at least 6 times over the last decade including able / not able to get multi-entry; able / not able to get "O" visa etc. etc.

I've discussed this many tines with my friends who actually live in Thailand and almost to a man they've said that if they knew then what they know now, they probably wouldn't have retired to Thailand. It's certainly one of the things that changed my plans to retire there, for as much as i love the place I don't want to live there. That is, of course just my personal feeling...as ever, "YMMV"

[Puccini]

11 hours ago, tomyami said:

sex sells, zero cost  upmarket deserning customers will demand standards and when scammed will be more vocal than 2 week mils...

I know that a mil is 0.001 inch (25.4 micrometres), but what is a 2 week mil?

[daveAustin]

How to fix Thailand tourism 101:

 

1. kick out army. 

2. throw T(w)AT in jail. 

[VBF]

5 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

Good observation, I might snap up a couple of condos if they get cheap.

Careful what you wish for! 

[VBF]

1 hour ago, thaibook said:

Face is very important.  Some may remember that many years ago a Thai business man or diplomat stole jewelry from a high ranking Saudi, in Saudi.  The Thai refused to admit it and the Thai government refused to allow any investigation.  As a result Saudi blacklisted Thailand, no Thai workers allowed, no Saudi tourists, no Saudi investment, etc.  But the Thai government did not change tack, to do so would have been a serious oss of face.

I remember it well. I was working in Saudi at the time and we needed to fly to a 3rd country (Bahrain) in order to go to Thailand on "R 'n' R.

[gejohesch]

12 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Problem with aiming for high class tourists and the dismantling of the sex industry is that that is probably 6-8 million jobs out the window and no new industry to employ them on the horizon.

 

The aim for high class tourists and no more sex industry is a fine aim, but they should not even attempt anything like that until tourism is back to 32-40 million a year and they have something in place to support their goals and start the transferring the sex industry workers and soon to be 'poor' tourism support workers to better jobs 

100% right. Good intention maybe, but it cannot happen overnight. Besides the need to find 6-8 million alternative jobs as you say, there is the need to change people's attitude vis-a-vis foreigners. The expectation that every foreigner has to splash money around all corners for example. Also, the sex industry that attracts foreigners is a spill-over of the "indigenous" sex industry (little understood by foreigners), so would Thailand be able to eradicate or at least significantly reduce the Thai-to-Thai sex business? I sort of doubt. At best, such deep transformations of the Thai society would take 1 or 2 generations.  

[Brian Hull]

Completely illogical. I wouldn't want these guys working for me. What's the downside to having lots of tourists spnding lots of foreign currency in Thailand, regardless of how affluent they are?

[gejohesch]

1 hour ago, thecyclist said:

It's just talk. Sounds good but nothing will come of it. They have been announcing the shutting down of the sex industry for decades. 

Not possible. I just read that the Thai sex industry has been nominated as "intangible world cultural heritage" by the UNESCO.

[Thunglom]

What model are they basing this idea on - other than their own snobbery?

[Stefanix]

12 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Guys if you had a business that was a ROARING success for the last 50 years solid......What would you want to change about your business?

 

My guess is about 99.9% of you would want to change absolutely nothing...

 

So why this fanatical focus on changing tourism?

 

Really why? 

 

It seems since 2014 the goal has been to kill success stories,where ever they are found in Thailand...

 

 

 

Can it be that there are other values in life than to maximize profits? Weapon and drug deals, mafia, slavery. Well running businesses, why change anything? Fortunately not everyone is thinking like this!

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Problem with aiming for high class tourists and the dismantling of the sex industry is that that is probably 6-8 million jobs out the window and no new industry to employ them on the horizon.

 

The aim for high class tourists and no more sex industry is a fine aim, but they should not even attempt anything like that until tourism is back to 32-40 million a year and they have something in place to support their goals and start the transferring the sex industry workers and soon to be 'poor' tourism support workers to better jobs 

But once the money flows, so does the power, and the provision of dark money prevents any attempts at reform. 

 

Once the people expected to enforce this change are well compensated not to, the entrenched stasis returns. 

 

I personally think Thailand offers little to the genuinely wealthy they think they will attract but that's a different issue, right now there's a window where the entire after dark economy are out of the kind of slush funds that can allow them to fight against closure

[Dont confuse me]

9 hours ago, fredscats said:

No better place for the "frail older guys", no ambition of visit to go go bars tho,  weather for one is the winner  

 

Seen the prices for Thai massages in western world?,prices for high end saunas? 60 quid for 2 hours  Neighbours may complain  music is too loud tho,deaf aid missing?. 1 to 2 hour massage every day,happy endings,gardeners,cleaners,big house,dirt cheap

 

Thailand more than definate had its day,fewer crowds,but user friendly, makes my day

  Spain would be my ultimate destination,not UK its a dump,but Spain has a definate winter,but that coastline and the Med  beats all

Spain actually has 'Clubs' that are brothels, in days gone by Spanish women worked in them now mostly Eastern block some South Americans, they cater for all tastes, for sure more expensive but the quality of the rooms etc is reflected is that price.

Also on offer are the 'roundabout' girls these are freelancers who I would say are all Eastern block.

You can get menu de dia (menu of the day) 3 courses with a drink and coffee from as little as €8.50 but expect to pay €10 that's less than 400 THB .

Visiting Market Village I'd spend $100 on a bag of basics in Spain for the same amount I'd do a weeks shopping for 2.

Your right about the coastline and the Med also you can get to Sierra Navada have a morning up a mountain and be back in time for dinner on the beach.

I've lived in USA a great place for recreation and food but in all honesty it has nothing (other than gun crime) that can't be found in Europe.

[dutchweller]

1 hour ago, thaibook said:

Face is very important.  Some may remember that many years ago a Thai business man or diplomat stole jewelry from a high ranking Saudi, in Saudi.  The Thai refused to admit it and the Thai government refused to allow any investigation.  As a result Saudi blacklisted Thailand, no Thai workers allowed, no Saudi tourists, no Saudi investment, etc.  But the Thai government did not change tack, to do so would have been a serious oss of face.

And is a prime reason why high roller Tourist would need their head checked if they consider Thailand a 5 Star high end location where They would not be a target for anything like you know having al their valuable items stolen and the authorities Denying it ever happened..

[thecyclist]

1 hour ago, thaibook said:

Would someone please say when the 90 day reporting requirement was introduced.

 

When could one enter the Kingdom for longer than 30 days without a visa and when the rule allowing only one extension (other than if married to a Thai) was introduced.

 

When was the law changed to allow a Thai woman married to a foreigner to own land?

Before then, was an extension based on marriage available?

 

 

  

Don't think you have ever been able to enter visa exempt for more than 30 days. It used to be only 15 days when I first visited over 40 years ago. They extended it to 30 days some time in the nineties. Also you were not  able to get even a single extension of visa exemptions or tourist visas back then. You could apply for it, but was usually rejected, and you got a week to leave the country. 

[ChC1]

7 hours ago, Capt Rob said:

A thoughtful response and for the most part on target.

Some previous commentators have overlooked most of the above points. One point that has seemingly been missed thus far is the Thai nationals desire to have respect as a nation.

This is of course all very well, if you are not struggling to put a roof over your family or food on the table.

Elitism is another giant hurdle in the way of social equality for the many. That will take a time to sort out.

Moving on to the last sentence I doubt that the bars will be full of 'zimmer frames', the sub fifties will still setting the physical pace.

I was going to make that point. But I know someone here will jump out and criticise me' are you in Thailand? Do you know Thailand?' as illustrated by one of the poster here. Plus if I put that point it it would be too long to read. There are a big Thai middle class family now. No one would want their children going to sex industry once the family jumped through classes. Sure there is always illegal immigrants and peasant family may provide some sex workers. Yet the trend is there. General Thai population wants to be respected. New middle class Thai wants prosperity. I agree with you. 

[StayinThailand2much]

TAT want to bake their own dream tourist. Once tourists pick other destinations instead, they will wake up, but it will be too late, and they will have to 'pay' Indian and Chinese tour groups to book 'Zero Dollar Tours' to Thailand, just to meet their (already lowered) arrival targets.

Edited December 18, 2021 by StayinThailand2much

[Kwaibill]

10 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

All has to do with pricing.  When I was there in the age of dinosaurs, I could have a good time for 50 Baht or less up-country.  90 Baht at one place in Bangkok, but they provided the short time room and it was in a nice part of town. That was like $4.50 at the exchange rate at that time. 

Not my cuppa. Came to learn about Thai practice of Buddhism, fell in love and married  my guide.

No idea of the numbers, but government goes out of its way to make things difficult for my "class".

Ditch the 90 day nonsense for people who are married for goodness sake. Allow a resident ID that bypasses double pricing scams. Allow us to own property with our spouses.

I think the permanent "tourists" are disregarded as a source of GDP. 

[ThailandGuy]

They think they don't need the money anymore?  Then abolish the dual pricing system aswell.

[StayinThailand2much]

4 minutes ago, ThailandGuy said:

They think they don't need the money anymore?  Then abolish the dual pricing system aswell.

They need the money, but they don't want the average tourist anymore, esp. if he/she is Caucasian and dares to stay longer than 10 days.

 

Perhaps they can find a way to attract 'virtual tourists', who don't actually arrive in Thailand, but only send money for a 'virtual holiday'...

Edited December 18, 2021 by StayinThailand2much

[Scott Savage]

13 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Problem with aiming for high class tourists and the dismantling of the sex industry is that that is probably 6-8 million jobs out the window and no new industry to employ them on the horizon.

 

The aim for high class tourists and no more sex industry is a fine aim, but they should not even attempt anything like that until tourism is back to 32-40 million a year and they have something in place to support their goals and start the transferring the sex industry workers and soon to be 'poor' tourism support workers to better jobs 

I think that once they reopen properly they will be happy with whomever comes over to spend their money

[Thunglom]

This is mooted every now and then, but as the nabobs mooting it have no idea what "high-end" means, it never happens.

What do they intend to do to change the demographics? - if they said something about that it would have a bit more credibility.

Are they just going to put the prices up? I doubt if that will work.

To attract a "high-end" customers they will need product.

One thing that comes to mind is the dismal state of yachting in Thailand - crippled by rules and regulations and lack of facilities it is just a joke.

Casinos? well you'll get high-end mafia.

Building resorts? Well, with the unregulated nature of development in Thailand, that can only be a disaster.

Eco-tourism? - As the Thai authorities have no idea what that is, one could see a few publicity disasters on the horizon there.

 

This is from a country with no democracy, corruption down to street level and incapable even of directing traffic safely - what are they going to offer "high-end" customers? Expensive prostitutes?

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Thunglom