ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Another battery break through in the works ....

https://youtu.be/JdFbCLhiI-k

 

i used to watch a lot of "the electric viking" videos, but not anymore. too many of his videos are a kind of speculation

about what new breakthroughs will be (or not) on the market in a few years.

 

imho, many of his videos are just a waste of time! of course, youtube is his main income, so he produces as many

videos as he can, but I really do prefer quality and not quantity!

[macahoom]

41 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

i used to watch a lot of "the electric viking" videos, but not anymore. too many of his videos are a kind of speculation

about what new breakthroughs will be (or not) on the market in a few years.

 

imho, many of his videos are just a waste of time! of course, youtube is his main income, so he produces as many

videos as he can, but I really do prefer quality and not quantity!

 

I agree.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, motdaeng said:

 

i used to watch a lot of "the electric viking" videos, but not anymore. too many of his videos are a kind of speculation

about what new breakthroughs will be (or not) on the market in a few years.

 

imho, many of his videos are just a waste of time! of course, youtube is his main income, so he produces as many

videos as he can, but I really do prefer quality and not quantity!

It wound me up too, it seemed like he was trying to spin out the length of the video by speaking slowly, repeating, and generally waffling without giving out any information. I lost interest after a short while.

[george]

testtest link to google

[Yellowtail]

One nice benefit of EVs over ICEVs is that (I assume) you can sit and wait quietly in an indoor parking garage with the air conditioner running. 

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

One nice benefit of EVs over ICEVs is that (I assume) you can sit and wait quietly in an indoor parking garage with the air conditioner running. 

Yes, and it uses very little energy.  We leave the dog in the car quite often. 

[Gweiloman]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Yes, and it uses very little energy.  We leave the dog in the car quite often. 

I work outdoors so very often, I sit in my car with the aircon on to cool down or to have my lunch on the go. I also have those mini car fans to help cool down faster. No one complains as no fumes are being emitted. I would never go that in my diesel work truck.

[Longwood50]

The study from the Texas Public Policy Foundation (TPPF) found, for example, that the average 2021 electric vehicle “would cost $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period without $22 billion in government favors given to EV manufacturers and owners.” https://t.co/bu1hwp7Sma

— Bud Brigham (@bmbrigham) October 27, 2023

 

The study found that the only thing making electric vehicles cheaper to run than traditional gasoline cars is a "wide array of direct subsidies, regulatory credits, and subsidized infrastructure that contribute to the economic viability of EVs."

 

“Adding the costs of the subsidies to the true cost of fueling an EV would equate to an EV owner paying $17.33 per gallon of gasoline," the report stated. "And these estimates do not include the hundreds of billions more in subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act."

EV's  A solution that doesn't work for a problem that doesn't exist. 

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

The study from the Texas Public Policy Foundation (TPPF) found, for example, that the average 2021 electric vehicle “would cost $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period without $22 billion in government favors given to EV manufacturers and owners.” 

 

https://t.co/bu1hwp7Sma

 

— Bud Brigham (@bmbrigham) October 27, 2023

 

The study found that the only thing making electric vehicles cheaper to run than traditional gasoline cars is a "wide array of direct subsidies, regulatory credits, and subsidized infrastructure that contribute to the economic viability of EVs."

 

“Adding the costs of the subsidies to the true cost of fueling an EV would equate to an EV owner paying $17.33 per gallon of gasoline," the report stated. "And these estimates do not include the hundreds of billions more in subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act."

EV's  A solution that doesn't work for a problem that doesn't exist. 

 

You have to hate those subsidies don't you?

 

Those of us with EV's deplore the subsidies that make our motoring so cheap, enjoyable and immeasurably superior to running an ICE vehicle.

 

I smile every time I charge up with that subsidised electricity, oh sorry, it's not subsidised, my mistake.

[Longwood50]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

You have to hate those subsidies don't you?

A subsid means that someone else is paying for your EV to make it "cost effective" for you.  

THE MONEY COMES FROM SOMEPLACE.

 

The study proves that EV's if they had to compete fairly without a subsidy would be less competitive than they already are.  

A truly great idea does not need a subsidy to make it attractive and wanted.  Nobody subsidizes the high cost of an Apple Iphone. 


EV owners in addition to paying more for a vehicle despite the subsidy are experiencing push back from the insurance companies who now have to pay huge money for battery replacement when a car is involved in just a minor accident. 

The USA salvage yards are filled with EV's with 10,000 miles or less on them because the battery replacement cost renders the car a salvage. 

One owner in Scotland faced a 33,000 Euro bill because rain damaged the cars battery.  Hint: It rains heavy in Thailand and driving through even slightly flooded streets may cause the battery compartment to be compromised. 

It’s not abnormal for it to rain in Scotland. It is abnormal, however, for it to rain so heavily your electric car battery gives up the ghost. A couple from Edinburgh was shocked after receiving a £17,374 (A$33,370) bill to replace the battery on their Tesla Model Y, after the vehicle wouldn’t turn on after driving through heavy rain.

As EV owners express their problems, demand for EV's is shrinking forcing huge discounts and every manufacturer has announced cut backs in their planned EV expansion due to lack of sales. 

 

I am not against EV's but I am against them being shoved down the publics throat.  Let them succeed or fail on their own.  If they are a great idea they will flourish.  If they are a lousy idea they will fail and they should fail. 

More alarm bells sound on slowing demand for electric vehicles | Reuters



 

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

A subsid means that someone else is paying for your EV to make it "cost effective" for you.  

THE MONEY COMES FROM SOMEPLACE.

 

The study proves that EV's if they had to compete fairly without a subsidy would be less competitive than they already are.  

A truly great idea does not need a subsidy to make it attractive and wanted.  Nobody subsidizes the high cost of an Apple Iphone. 


EV owners in addition to paying more for a vehicle despite the subsidy are experiencing push back from the insurance companies who now have to pay huge money for battery replacement when a car is involved in just a minor accident. 

The USA salvage yards are filled with EV's with 10,000 miles or less on them because the battery replacement cost renders the car a salvage. 

One owner in Scotland faced a 33,000 Euro bill because rain damaged the cars battery.  Hint: It rains heavy in Thailand and driving through even slightly flooded streets may cause the battery compartment to be compromised. 

It’s not abnormal for it to rain in Scotland. It is abnormal, however, for it to rain so heavily your electric car battery gives up the ghost. A couple from Edinburgh was shocked after receiving a £17,374 (A$33,370) bill to replace the battery on their Tesla Model Y, after the vehicle wouldn’t turn on after driving through heavy rain.

As EV owners express their problems, demand for EV's is shrinking forcing huge discounts and every manufacturer has announced cut backs in their planned EV expansion due to lack of sales. 

 

I am not against EV's but I am against them being shoved down the publics throat.  Let them succeed or fail on their own.  If they are a great idea they will flourish.  If they are a lousy idea they will fail and they should fail. 

More alarm bells sound on slowing demand for electric vehicles | Reuters



 

 

Could there be a hint of jealousy here? 

 

Missing out on our wonderful subsidies are you?

 

It's normal for new tech to be subsidised to get it past early adoption phase, eg the UK are now subsidising heatpumps.

[Longwood50]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Could there be a hint of jealousy here? 

No jealousy.  Merely a fact.    If you have to have the government subsidize something in order to sell it, it is proof that the product on its own merit would not be attractive.  The very fact it needs the subsidy proves it to be a faulty idea that without the subsidy would fail.  

If you subsidize something with enough money, you could get a car that costs $2 million USD to sell.  However the problem as Margaret Thatcher once said.  Eventually you run out of "other peoples money" 

 

[Yellowtail]

Yeah, the people getting the subsidies love them. The people that have to pay for them? Not so much. 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

49 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

No jealousy.  Merely a fact.    If you have to have the government subsidize something in order to sell it, it is proof that the product on its own merit would not be attractive.  The very fact it needs the subsidy proves it to be a faulty idea that without the subsidy would fail.  
 

 

Not really accurate, University Students are subsidised, here in Thailand fuel is subsidised, I take it you don't run a motorised vehice?

 

Electricity is subsidised, the arts & museums are subsidised. I assume you don't use electricity in your home?

 

Let's look at the dictionary definition.

 

Subsidy, a direct or indirect payment, economic concession, or privilege granted by a government to private firms, households, or other governmental units in order to promote a public objective. Identification of a subsidy is often complicated because of the variety of subsidy instruments, the multiplicity of the objectives they are designed to serve, and the complexity of their effects.

Subsidies to transportation, housing, agriculture, mining, and other industries have been instituted on the grounds that preservation or expansion of these industries, even at a cost to the general public, is in the public interest. Subsidies to the arts, sciences, humanities, and religion have also been instituted in many nations because of the inability of the private economy to support these functions at a level consistent with public policy.

 

I love subsidies!

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

here in Thailand fuel is subsidised

All fuels ⛽️ are taxed in Thailand. A mere reduction in a tax, like diesel is at the moment, is not subsidizing fuel in the same way the EV industry have been showered in taxpayers money.

 

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Not really accurate, University Students are subsidised, here in Thailand fuel is subsidised, I take it you don't run a motorised vehice?

 

Electricity is subsidised, the arts & museums are subsidised. I assume you don't use electricity in your home?

 

Let's look at the dictionary definition.

 

Subsidy, a direct or indirect payment, economic concession, or privilege granted by a government to private firms, households, or other governmental units in order to promote a public objective. Identification of a subsidy is often complicated because of the variety of subsidy instruments, the multiplicity of the objectives they are designed to serve, and the complexity of their effects.

Subsidies to transportation, housing, agriculture, mining, and other industries have been instituted on the grounds that preservation or expansion of these industries, even at a cost to the general public, is in the public interest. Subsidies to the arts, sciences, humanities, and religion have also been instituted in many nations because of the inability of the private economy to support these functions at a level consistent with public policy.

 

I love subsidies!

 

Yeah, the people getting the subsidies love them. The people that have to pay for them? Not so much

 

Just because some a particular group "benefits" from a subsidy is not a good reason to compel all of groups to pay for them. 

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, the people getting the subsidies love them. The people that have to pay for them? Not so much

 

Just because some a particular group "benefits" from a subsidy is not a good reason to compel all of groups to pay for them. 

 

This why we have Governments, who make the decisions.  Otherwise we would have no Art Galleries, Universities or Museums

[DavisH]

Theres a brand new seal for sale in fb market place. Apparently the owner lives in a condo and its "not convenient" to charge outside. One would think to consider this before purcasing such a vehicle. 

[KhunLA]

18 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

This why we have Governments, who make the decisions.  Otherwise we would have no Art Galleries, Universities or Museums

Along with public trans.

[Yellowtail]

21 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

This why we have Governments, who make the decisions.  Otherwise we would have no Art Galleries, Universities or Museums

 

Are being sarcastic or have you been that deeply indoctrinated? 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Are being sarcastic or have you been that deeply indoctrinated? 

 

 

I do love sarcasm, but in this case I was simply stating facts 

[Yellowtail]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I do love sarcasm, but in this case I was simply stating facts 

No, you were simply telling a lie. 

 

Why would we have no art galleries, universities or museums but for governments? 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

No, you were simply telling a lie. 

 

Why would we have no art galleries, universities or museums but for governments? 

 

 

 

But for subsidies which are allocated by governments.

 

Are you intellectually challenged or just having an off couple of days?

[Yellowtail]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

But for subsidies which are allocated by governments.

Another bold-faced lie. 

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Are you intellectually challenged or just having an off couple of days?

Yes, attempting to have a truthful discussion with "intellectuals" is challenging. 

 

I would provide example but you'd make the silly argument that the road leading to the private art-galleries, universities and museums is a subsidy or some-such, but the same argument can be made for everything.

 

Nothing would exist without government subsidies, correct? 

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Nothing would exist without government subsidies, correct? 

Exactly, at one point or another, direct or indirectly, almost all modern things have been subsidized at one point or another.  

 

For the anti EV'er or anyone, to simply point out EVs, is a bit hypocritical.  Why people won't simply accept the reality of things is strange.

 

All that aside, I equate ICEVs to 2nd hand smoke, as I'm not forced to indulge, but when I'm outside, I'm exposed to the harmful effects of the product, and simply no avoiding it.  My freedom of choice has been removed, to the detriment of my health.

Edited November 9, 2023 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Nothing would exist without government subsidies, correct? 

 

 

Now who's being silly, talk to the paw, this cool cat ain't listenin'

[Yellowtail]

28 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Now who's being silly, talk to the paw, this cool cat ain't listenin'

That's what I thought, pretty weak, even for you. 

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Exactly, at one point or another, direct or indirectly, almost all modern things have been subsidized at one point or another.  

I am not arguing they are not, only that they would still exist without them. 

 

Subsidies are just social engineering. 

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

For the anti EV'er or anyone, to simply point out EVs, is a bit hypocritical.  Why people won't simply accept the reality of things is strange.

I am against subsidies for most everything, not just EVs. 

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

All that aside, I equate ICEVs to 2nd hand smoke, as I'm not forced to indulge, but when I'm outside, I'm exposed to the harmful effects of the product, and simply no avoiding it.  My freedom of choice has been removed, to the detriment of my health.

Are you claiming there would be significantly less air pollution if ICEVs were banned? 

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Are you claiming there would be significantly less air pollution if ICEVs were banned? 

Local ground level ... yes

 

Too obvious, as simply drive MB behind an ICEV vs an EV.   Stand on any busy intersection, and while inhaling the exhaust fumes, simply imagine the clean air (& quietness) it would be if they were all EVs ... nuff said.  

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Local ground level ... yes

 

Too obvious, as simply drive MB behind an ICEV vs an EV.   Stand on any busy intersection, and while inhaling the exhaust fumes, simply imagine the clean air (& quietness) it would be if they were all EVs ... nuff said.  

 

A perfect example of "stage one thinking".