ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

44 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I understand that distinction, but probably supply some of the parts, and get their franchise fee, so yes, profits all around.

It didn't sound like it. It sounded like you are claiming some huge conspiracy about automobile manufacturers getting rich on oil changes.

 

It's nice that EV dealerships don't have to pay franchise fees and they give you free parts and service forever. 

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It didn't sound like it. It sounded like you are claiming some huge conspiracy about automobile manufacturers getting rich on oil changes.

 

It's nice that EV dealerships don't have to pay franchise fees and they give you free parts and service forever. 

Did you ever watch "Who killed the electric car?"  It's eye opening.  Should be mandatory viewing for anyone debating who controls, in part or whole, the auto industry.

[Pib]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

How do automobile manufactures make money on maintenance?

 

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Typically, automobile manufacturers do not make oil, spark plugs, filters, batteries, starters or alternators, and they do not make any money from the labor to change them. Where did you hear they did?  

 

It's nice that EV's come with free lifetime parts and service, I did not know that. I remember the last Isuzu I bought had free service during the warranty. 

 

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What manufactures service the vehicles they produce?  

 

You ever heard of dealerships which vehicle manufacturers sell their vehicle through?   Dealerships which are under contract with the manufacturer to follow maintenance/servicing rules set by the manufacturer, buy genuine parts from the manufacturer, etc.   Basically the dealership is a franchise of manufacturer.

 

Go to the Toyota USA website....look at their Genuine  Parts webpage....notice the last sentence on the page...see the snapshot at bottom. 

 

Vehicle manufacturers don't only make money from building/selling a vehicle but also maintenance/parts of the vehicle over it's lifetime, financing the vehicle, insurance, and other lifecycle requirements.     

 

https://www.toyota.com/owners/genuine-parts/

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Did you ever watch "Who killed the electric car?"  It's eye opening.  Should be mandatory viewing for anyone debating who controls, in part or whole, the auto industry.

Why don't you just tell me who controls the auto industry? 

 

Why do I have to watch a movie for an hour and a half?

 

Let me guess, John D. Rockefeller? 

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

 

 

You ever heard of dealerships which vehicle manufacturers sell their vehicle through?   Dealerships which are under contract with the manufacturer to follow maintenance/servicing rules set by the manufacturer, buy genuine parts from the manufacturer, etc.   Basically the dealership is a franchise of manufacturer.

 

Go to the Toyota USA website....look at their Genuine  Parts webpage....notice the last sentence on the page...see the snapshot at bottom. 

 

Vehicle manufacturers don't only make money from building/selling a vehicle but also maintenance/parts of the vehicle over it's lifetime, financing the vehicle, insurance, and other lifecycle requirements.     

 

https://www.toyota.com/owners/genuine-parts/

 

 

I know how it works. 

 

Automobile manufactures make very little money selling parts to the "authorized dealers". 

 

Virtually the only parts a ICEV needs in the first 100-200K miles are consumables.

[Pib]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Automobile manufactures make very little money selling parts to the "authorized dealers". 

 

Source for that claim?

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Pib said:

Source for that claim?

Source for yours? 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Pib said:

Source for that claim?

 

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Source for yours? 

 

 

 

Source for the goose is source for the gander?

[KhunLA]

32 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Why don't you just tell me who controls the auto industry? 

 

Why do I have to watch a movie for an hour and a half?

 

Let me guess, John D. Rockefeller? 

It would explain a lot to a lot of people ...

... although ignorance is BLISS, or so I read/hear.

 

With that, we probably shouldn't discuss the subject in the future, if you don't understand the basics of the economics/profits of keeping ICEVs on the road as long as possible.  And who that benefits, and it certainly isn't the end customer buying the ICEVs.

[Pib]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Source for yours? 

 

Figured you would say that.  You said they make very little money.; I made no reference as to how much such as a lot or a little....just that they do because manufacturers have Parts Divisions to make and sell parts because it's surely profitable for them.

 

I think it's well known when you go to a dealership you are going to pay top dollar for parts...and in many cases you can find the same genuine/OEM part significantly cheaper at a parts store...physical or online.    I know I sure have over the years in maintaining my vehicles.

[JBChiangRai]

37 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Why don't you just tell me who controls the auto industry? 

 

Why do I have to watch a movie for an hour and a half?

 

Let me guess, John D. Rockefeller? 

 

The illuminati?

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I was once a passenger in a BMW 518i heading the motorway in the UK when it died, timing belt went, valves all bent.  He hadn’t serviced from new, 120,000 miles on it.

 

I would be money that Toyota’s new engine is nothing more than an ICE designed to burn hydrogen instead of petrol, in other words, nothing more than a slightly modified CNG engine.

 

Toyota are doing everything they can to spread FUD about EV’s, they recognize the threat to their business.

IMO you are right, something burning the same old fossil fuel wouldn't get much traction unless it could consume 1 litre of fuel in 300 km, or whatever.

 

It's a similar trap to an EV, however. Any EV getting recharged from a power station using fossil fuel is simply transferring CO2 emissions there. 95% of hydrogen production currently comes from steam reforming of methane and other natural gases, so there's no environmental gain. Even worse, a byproduct is carbon monoxide.

 

Until both EV's and hydrogen -powered cars are derived from renewable energy, business as usual.

 

[Yellowtail]

36 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Source for the goose is source for the gander?

What false claim do you think I have made that you would like substantiated?

[Pib]

Legacy/ICEV manufacturers develop new sales approach.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What false claim do you think I have made that you would like substantiated?

None at all

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

It would explain a lot to a lot of people ...

... although ignorance is BLISS, or so I read/hear.

 

With that, we probably shouldn't discuss the subject in the future, if you don't understand the basics of the economics/profits of keeping ICEVs on the road as long as possible.  And who that benefits, and it certainly isn't the end customer buying the ICEVs.

Okay, please not respond to any of my automotive related posts. 

[KhunLA]

One reason we went with MG (SAIC), as excellent track record building auto, along with with being 'state owned'.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

The beginning of the end for EVs.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ev-adoption-weakening-despite-us-subsidies-and-other-inducements-by-todd-g-buchholz-2024-01

[Andrew Dwyer]

29 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The beginning of the end for EVs.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ev-adoption-weakening-despite-us-subsidies-and-other-inducements-by-todd-g-buchholz-2024-01

In the US ?

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The beginning of the end for EVs.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ev-adoption-weakening-despite-us-subsidies-and-other-inducements-by-todd-g-buchholz-2024-01

The mandates will stop that sh*t.

[JBChiangRai]

14 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The beginning of the end for EVs.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ev-adoption-weakening-despite-us-subsidies-and-other-inducements-by-todd-g-buchholz-2024-01

 

Clickbait

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

One reason we went with MG (SAIC), as excellent track record building auto, along with with being 'state owned'.

 

Well, that's encouraging... 

[Lacessit]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

One reason we went with MG (SAIC), as excellent track record building auto, along with with being 'state owned'.

 

I see quite a few BYD EV's around Chiang Rai, the comments in the video cannot be reassuring to BYD owners.

 

China is in a financial fix, their largest property firm ( Evergrande ) is insolvent.

 

I am reminded of the situation in Australia back in the 1970's, when we had 5 carmakers. Holden, Ford, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Nissan. Simply too many for a population of 15 million people.

 

Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it.

 

IIRC Nissan was the first to go, ironically they were probably making the best quality vehicles. Holden and Ford were garbage in comparison, yet they lasted the longest. All gone by 2018.

 

91 EV manufacturers? IMO 5 is just the tip of the iceberg, it's possible three-quarters of them could go under. Which begs the question of what brand of EV a customer should buy.

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I see quite a few BYD EV's around Chiang Rai, the comments in the video cannot be reassuring to BYD owners.

 

China is in a financial fix, their largest property firm ( Evergrande ) is insolvent.

 

I am reminded of the situation in Australia back in the 1970's, when we had 5 carmakers. Holden, Ford, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Nissan. Simply too many for a population of 15 million people.

 

Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it.

 

IIRC Nissan was the first to go, ironically they were probably making the best quality vehicles. Holden and Ford were garbage in comparison, yet they lasted the longest. All gone by 2018.

 

91 EV manufacturers? IMO 5 is just the tip of the iceberg, it's possible three-quarters of them could go under. Which begs the question of what brand of EV a customer should buy.

 

As a BYD owner, I don't find it disturbing at all, quite the opposite, consolidation of the stronger brands is a good thing, and BYD is the strongest of all of them. MG (SAIC) is also strong, I think Toyota in the Thai market is doomed. The Yaris & Yaris Ativ are their best sellers, Chinese brands will go for that with new models soon, pickups are coming with BYD.

 

As Elon Musk says, BYD pose an existential threat to all automakers unless Tariffs are imposed.  Thailand won't impose tariffs on Chinese cars so Chinese auto manufacturers will take the market here.

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I see quite a few BYD EV's around Chiang Rai, the comments in the video cannot be reassuring to BYD owners.

 

China is in a financial fix, their largest property firm ( Evergrande ) is insolvent.

 

I am reminded of the situation in Australia back in the 1970's, when we had 5 carmakers. Holden, Ford, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Nissan. Simply too many for a population of 15 million people.

 

Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it.

 

IIRC Nissan was the first to go, ironically they were probably making the best quality vehicles. Holden and Ford were garbage in comparison, yet they lasted the longest. All gone by 2018.

 

91 EV manufacturers? IMO 5 is just the tip of the iceberg, it's possible three-quarters of them could go under. Which begs the question of what brand of EV a customer should buy.

Don't think BYD owners have anything to worry about.  Same as if CATL started producing cars.   If you make the most expensive component of the EV yourself, you control the cost of the end product, and can price competitively.

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

As a BYD owner, I don't find it disturbing at all, quite the opposite, consolidation of the stronger brands is a good thing, and BYD is the strongest of all of them. MG (SAIC) is also strong, I think Toyota in the Thai market is doomed. The Yaris & Yaris Ativ are their best sellers, Chinese brands will go for that with new models soon, pickups are coming with BYD.

 

As Elon Musk says, BYD pose an existential threat to all automakers unless Tariffs are imposed.  Thailand won't impose tariffs on Chinese cars so Chinese auto manufacturers will take the market here.

Size is no guarantee of success. History is littered with examples of company behemoths that no longer exist, or have been digested by more agile competitors. Kodak, Rootes Group, Studebaker.

Toyota built its reputation on reliable, boring cars with bulletproof engines. It still has that reputation today, Ford does not even make it into the top ten. Chinese auto manufacturers are nowhere in the league, it takes time to build the kind of reputation Toyota has.

No doubt the Chinese will be competing very strongly on price, but if I were buying an EV, I'd still be wondering which company will be around to service my car in 10-15 years' time.

 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Size is no guarantee of success. History is littered with examples of company behemoths that no longer exist, or have been digested by more agile competitors. Kodak, Rootes Group, Studebaker.

Toyota built its reputation on reliable, boring cars with bulletproof engines. It still has that reputation today, Ford does not even make it into the top ten. Chinese auto manufacturers are nowhere in the league, it takes time to build the kind of reputation Toyota has.

No doubt the Chinese will be competing very strongly on price, but if I were buying an EV, I'd still be wondering which company will be around to service my car in 10-15 years' time.

 

As I understand it, EVs require no service and the batteries las twenty years so I would not be too worried. If I were going to buy an EV today, it would be a Tesla because I like the way they look. 

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

As I understand it, EVs require no service and the batteries las twenty years so I would not be too worried. If I were going to buy an EV today, it would be a Tesla because I like the way they look. 

Minimal service, compared to ICEVs.

 

Buying in is location dependent ... in TH, Tesla is overpriced and BYD is the flavor of the day, specifically the Seal, if not wanting  SUV.  

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

As I understand it, EVs require no service and the batteries las twenty years so I would not be too worried. If I were going to buy an EV today, it would be a Tesla because I like the way they look. 

 

I think they are looking a bit dated now.  I have 3 issues with Tesla in Thailand...

 

First, Elon Musk, Tesla=Elon Musk, Elon Musk=Tesla.  Elon has no checks and balances and he talks BS, he also employs some underhand practices, eg black colour is free, white colour is 50k THB more, but in Malaysia it's the other way around.

 

Second, the prices here are too high, they need to be dropped by 20%

 

Third, Tesla is priced as an AI company, it's not, it's an EV manufacturer, his full delf driving will never work in Thailand because their vision based system likes clean white lines.  There is a class action lawsuit in the UK, they are suing Tesla because 4 years ago they bought FSD, it's never been delivered, many people in the Uk work on a 3 year replacement cycle.

 

Even if the prices were dropped 20%, I would have to think long and hard about all the missing bits you get standard on the BYD.

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Minimal service, compared to ICEVs.

 

Buying in is location dependent ... in TH, Tesla is overpriced and BYD is the flavor of the day, specifically the Seal, if not wanting  SUV.  

As a point of interest, how much of the braking is derived from the engine itself, and how much from the hydraulic discs? Which takes the brunt of an emergency braking situation?