ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

No official poll but I am adding my voice to motdaeng's. It is very very boring, incredibly so. I am tired of having to scroll past all those posts each day (sometimes several times a day) to get to anything interesting - it is strangling the thread.

Once again simple solution is ignore button and then you wouldn't see those posts

Looking at the Top posters in this thread

@KhunLA 500 posts @JBChiangRai 390 posts @Yellowtail 329 posts and myself at 145 posts

so the comment about scrolling past these posts each day sometimes serveral times a day is misleading and grossly exaggerated

Edited September 22 by vinny41
add

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Once again simple solution is ignore button and then you wouldn't see those posts

Looking at the Top posters in this thread

@KhunLA 500 posts @JBChiangRai 390 posts @Yellowtail 329 posts and myself at 145 posts

so the comment about scrolling past these posts each day sometimes serveral times a day is misleading and grossly exaggerated

That's <1400 posts ... so leaves 1200 other posts.  Guessing more than a few of ours are replies to silly posts.   Which I myself have refrained from, as much as possible, replying to the  trolls, unless something seriously need correction, though more so on other BEV threads.

[josephbloggs]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Once again simple solution is ignore button and then you wouldn't see those posts

Looking at the Top posters in this thread

@KhunLA 500 posts @JBChiangRai 390 posts @Yellowtail 329 posts and myself at 145 posts

so the comment about scrolling past these posts each day sometimes serveral times a day is misleading and grossly exaggerated

It isn't misleading or exaggerated, I scroll past them literally every day. No one else is interested, please give it a rest. Or how about go and start an EV numbers thread that you and JB can just indulge in and the rest of us can ignore? Please??

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

It isn't misleading or exaggerated, I scroll past them literally every day. No one else is interested, please give it a rest. Or how about go and start an EV numbers thread that you and JB can just indulge in and the rest of us can ignore? Please??

 

Clearly is misleading  and  exaggerated

Once again someone speaking for all forum members

as someone on this forum is interested and they post positve feedback to my posts

On this topic excluding the past 24 hours I have made  a total of 11 posts in this thread 10 on September 1st and 1 on September 5th so when you scroll past them literally every day it is clearly is misleading  and  exaggerated

As previously stated there is an ignore option if your don't wish to see someone posts

Wonder what the real issue is because if you dislike my posts adding me to your ignore list

or is the real issue is that you don't like the content of the press releases from The European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association

 

Edited September 22 by vinny41
add

[Pib]

U.S. government proposal to prohibit key Chinese software and hardware in cars sold in the U.S.   And if approved this could impact cars sold in some other countries if some other countries decide to tag along...especially if some countries want to further protect their vehicle manufacturing industry.   Seems a "cold war of economics" is continuing to ramp-up.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/biden-proposes-banning-chinese-vehicles-us-roads-with-software-crackdown-2024-09-23/

 

 

Quote

 

By David Shepardson

September 23, 2024

 

WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (Reuters) - The U.S. Commerce Department on Monday proposed prohibiting key Chinese software and hardware in connected vehicles on American roads due to national security concerns - a move that would effectively bar nearly all Chinese cars from entering the U.S. market.

 

The planned regulation, first reported by Reuters, would also force American and other major automakers in the coming years to remove key Chinese software and hardware from vehicles in the United States.

 

The Biden administration has raised serious concerns about the collection of data by Chinese companies on U.S. drivers and infrastructure through connected vehicles as well as about potential foreign manipulation of vehicles connected to the internet and navigation systems. The White House ordered an investigation into the potential dangers in February.

 

The prohibitions would prevent testing of self-driving cars on U.S. roads by Chinese automakers and extend to vehicle software and hardware produced by other U.S. foreign adversaries including Russia.

 

"When foreign adversaries build software to make a vehicle that means it can be used for surveillance, can be remotely controlled, which threatens the privacy and safety of Americans on the road," Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo told a briefing.

 

"In an extreme situation, a foreign adversary could shut down or take control of all their vehicles operating in the United States all at the same time causing crashes, blocking roads."

 

The move is a significant escalation in the United States' ongoing restrictions on Chinese vehicles, software and components. Earlier this month, the Biden administration locked in steep tariff hikes on Chinese imports, including a 100% duty on electric vehicles as well as new hikes on EV batteries and key minerals.

 

There are relatively few Chinese-made cars or light-duty trucks imported into the United States. But Raimondo said the department is acting "before suppliers, automakers and car components linked to China or Russia become commonplace and widespread in the U.S. automotive sector... We're not going to wait until our roads are filled with cars and the risk is extremely significant before we act."

 

Nearly all newer cars and trucks are considered "connected" with onboard network hardware that allows internet access, allowing them to share data with devices both inside and outside the vehicle.

 

A senior administration official confirmed the proposal would effectively ban all existing Chinese light-duty cars and trucks from the U.S. market, but added it would allow Chinese automakers to seek "specific authorizations" for exemptions.

 

The United States has ample evidence of China prepositioning malware in critical American infrastructure, White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan told the same briefing.

"With potentially millions of vehicles on the road, each with 10- to 15-year lifespans the risk of disruption and sabotage increases dramatically," Sullivan said.

 

The Chinese Embassy in Washington last month criticized planned action to limit Chinese vehicle exports to the United States: "China urges the U.S. to earnestly abide by market principles and international trade rules, and create a level playing field for companies from all countries. China will firmly defend its lawful rights and interests."

 

The proposal calls for making software prohibitions effective in the 2027 model year while the hardware ban would take effect in the 2030 model year or January 2029.

The Commerce Department is giving the public 30 days to comment on the proposal and hopes to finalize it by Jan. 20. The rules would apply to all on-road vehicles but exclude agricultural or mining vehicles not used on public roads.

 

The Alliance For Automotive Innovation, a group representing major automakers including General Motors (GM.N), opens new tab, Toyota (7203.T), opens new tab, Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), opens new tab and Hyundai (005380.KS), opens new tab, has warned that changing hardware and software would take time.

The group noted connected vehicle hardware and software are developed around the world, including China, but could not detail to what extent Chinese-made components are prevalent in U.S. models.

 

Stay up to date with the latest news, trends and innovations that are driving the global automotive industry with the Reuters Auto File newsletter. Sign up here.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

I, for one, find all these posts about EV sales numbers boring and tedious and adds nothing of value to this thread. While it is technically on topic, I like to think that this topic is more on the pros and cons of EVs vs ICEVs. Just my 2 cents worth.

[KhunLA]

Finally, a break in overcast skies.   Ebike charged up the other day, as takes very little.  Car has been charging since 0730 hrs, and a bit before producing enough for just the house.

 

But sunny skies all day, contrary to weather report.   Just got back from the park for morning walk, and E-MC is Q'd up to charge, as car should be done within the hour, if not already.

 

Beats making a special trip to the PTT station for petrol, as it's not on the way to anything we go to.  Involves a special trip, indirectly with extra kms to get to/from.   Along with no Q'ing up waiting ... and best ... paying for fuel/energy.

 

🌞 🌞 🌞 🌞 🌞

 

[KhunLA]

Suspect legacy auto / pick up truck makers here in TH, are going to get hit hard 2025 & 2026, as BEV trucks hit the market.   Sales declines way beyond a simple downward economy slump.

 

Those looking to replace or buy new will enjoy the savings & performance, of the feature packed BEVs hitting the market soon.   Auto shows end of 2024 & early 2025 will give a better picture of their future.

 

If they can keep the price at ฿1M mark or less, then it's going to take a big chunk of their (ICEV) pick up truck market share the next 2 years.   That's a huge % of market/profits for the legacy pick up truck makers.

 

Thais love their trucks ... I'm even thinking about one 

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Thais love their trucks ... I'm even thinking about one 

 

is that a typo? oh, i see, you're just thinking about it... .... 

 

but i can understand the temptation of having a nice electric pickup ... i "think" the same way ... 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, motdaeng said:

is that a typo? oh, i see, you're just thinking about it... .... 

 

but i can understand the temptation of having a nice electric pickup ... i "think" the same way ... 

I'm thinking 'RV', camper top, maybe bed or just cooking area & makeshift shower.   Tire of searching for 'pet friendly' accommodations.   We're off the beaten track most of the time, and comfy beds don't seem to be a priority at many hotels.

 

I like the promo in the one vid, actually 2, as the seats almost lay flat in the cab.  One vid having campers on the truck bed already.  May not even need a bed in the back truck bed.   Something about the truck beds here in TH, so damn small / short.   Actually hard to find one 2 meters.   I'd much rather not have the SUV ish cab, and a longer, more practical work bed, since just the 2 of us.

 

Although, If I can sleep in the cab, that could be  major plus also.   See what's on offer next year.  Sleeping in the MG ZS doesn't work for me.  Just a wee bit too big, and plus we'd need to put a roof rack the car, and no desire fore that, packing & unpacking.

[JBChiangRai]

I just watched the enclosed video and it sums up my position exactly.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Jg9WVRQMMFH9NLa7/?mibextid=CTbP7E

[JBChiangRai]

September in Norway saw EV’s take a 96.4% market share.

 

https://electricdrives.tv/norway-sets-record-ev-market-share-for-september/#

[Gweiloman]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

September in Norway saw EV’s take a 96.4% market share.

 

https://electricdrives.tv/norway-sets-record-ev-market-share-for-september/#

I have been to the fjords in Norway a few times. Some of the most breathtaking scenery you can ever hope to see. I’m glad that Norwegians have taken to EVs so as to minimise tailpipe emissions which I would imagine would be detrimental to the glaciers.

[KhunLA]

On 9/29/2024 at 12:29 PM, JBChiangRai said:

I just watched the enclosed video and it sums up my position exactly.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Jg9WVRQMMFH9NLa7/?mibextid=CTbP7E

Does sum it nicely.

 

Having owned 15 ish used ICEVs in USA (1 new truck), and include hippie dippy van, to station wagons, family sedan, domestic & imports, trucks, sports car & luxury cars, I think I can speak from experience.

 

Include the 4 new ICEVs bought here / TH, and our BEV, same make / model as one of the ICEVs owned here (MG ZS), I can honestly say, there really is no comparison.  BEV being far superior in every way.

 

Only 1 exception, the Caddy was a damn comfy ride.  Aside from that, a POS.  And I didn't just drive cars in the USA, being poor, I tore apart & repaired them myself.  From simple maintenance, tune ups, set points, tach & dwell use, to engine, trans & rear swaps.  

 

All served me well, as expected at least, and a couple, damn fun to drive.  Some good, some you get what you pay for.  With that, I'd never buy another ICEV.

Edited October 5 by KhunLA

[Pib]

11 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

September in Norway saw EV’s take a 96.4% market share.

 

https://electricdrives.tv/norway-sets-record-ev-market-share-for-september/#

 

 

A partial quote from above article.    I expect the folks who bought the 183 petrol/diesel cars are "hard core" ICEV supporters or just scared to death of EVs or ???????

 

 

Quote

 

Another record for Norway EV adoption

Looking at the figures, published by the Norwegian Road Federation, 12,495 fully-electric cars were sold in the month. This compares to just 48 pure petrol cars, and 135 pure diesel cars. Plug-in hybrids also accounted for only a small 146 units. The news comes just weeks after Norway hit another major EV milestone. As of last month, there are now more EVs registered on the nation’s roads than pure petrol-powered cars.

 

 

[DavisH]

12 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I have been to the fjords in Norway a few times. Some of the most breathtaking scenery you can ever hope to see. I’m glad that Norwegians have taken to EVs so as to minimise tailpipe emissions which I would imagine would be detrimental to the glaciers.

They should have thought about the glaciers before developing their economy largely based on the oil and gas industry! Bunch of bloody hypocrites I say..

[KhunLA]

For the future BEV buyers out there, that believe the Toyota BS, of SSB (solid state batteries) coming to market soon ... well ... maybe not so soon.   

 

Depending on your age, finance, and desire to drive a better performing car than an ICEV, you may just want to get one of the current BEVs available.

 

I'm not alone, in my anti Toyota thinking, as they have been BS for decades; H2 cars, SSB, being late to the game and simply can't compete.

 

Hence their stock is crashing ...

 

 

 

[Pib]

When it comes to the Toyota solid state battery,  a new revolutionary combustion engine, or some other Toyota pie-in-the sky propaganda "which is just around the corner" it's all meant to keep current Toyota customers hanging on a little longer for that revolutionary Toyota  innovation/vehicle that always seems to be just around the corner...can now see it on the horizon...just hold on a little longer....etc.   

 

Toyota (and Honda) are really behind the EV vehicle curve and I think have made the business decision to put most of their plans it transitioning from "ICEV to Hybrid and then to EV".....they are simply not making the ICEV to EV jump....they are first taking an interim jump to Hybrid.  They see that as the best business decision and maybe it is.    

 

While I think Toyota makes excellent ICEVs (I still own a 2009 Fortuner I bought new but now my primary vehicle is a 2023 BYD EV)  Toyota is really dragging their feet in the transition to EVs and using tactics like advertising "revolutionary" propaganda to help mask their foot dragging (i.e., business decision).    But hey, it's their business...and it could very well be the best long term business decision to concentrate on selling Hybrids for now while they slowly catch-up in EV technology.  

Edited October 6 by Pib

[Rampant Rabbit]

On 10/5/2024 at 9:26 AM, JBChiangRai said:

September in Norway saw EV’s take a 96.4% market share.

 

https://electricdrives.tv/norway-sets-record-ev-market-share-for-september/#

But what you omit is  it only  has  a  population of 5 million which is  tiny and its electric production due to its geo location and abundant water is hdyro electric 95% which is very cheap to produce "if"  you have the water to do it. Also as mentioned its  selling  gas an oil to everyone at high prices with higher demand due to Russian war. On top of that it has heavy subsidies for electric  vehicles and mandates ONLY electric/zero emission for 2025. In other words they have no choice. You could say "cherry picked"

Edited October 6 by Rampant Rabbit

[Gweiloman]

14 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

But what you omit is  it only  has  a  population of 5 million which is  tiny and its electric production due to its geo location and abundant water is hdyro electric 95% which is very cheap to produce "if"  you have the water to do it. Also as mentioned its  selling  gas an oil to everyone at high prices with higher demand due to Russian war. On top of that it has heavy subsidies for electric  vehicles and mandates ONLY electric/zero emission for 2025. In other words they have no choice. You could say "cherry picked"

What does the size of the population have to do with whether the consumers prefer EVs over ICEVs? Thanks to its topography, EVs are the better choice for Norwegians. Cheaper to run and cleaner air to boot. 
 

Norway has NOT mandated only zero emissions for 2025. This is merely an objective. In other words, they have a choice. And they have clearly chosen.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

But what you omit is  it only  has  a  population of 5 million which is  tiny and its electric production due to its geo location and abundant water is hdyro electric 95% which is very cheap to produce "if"  you have the water to do it. Also as mentioned its  selling  gas an oil to everyone at high prices with higher demand due to Russian war. On top of that it has heavy subsidies for electric  vehicles and mandates ONLY electric/zero emission for 2025. In other words they have no choice. You could say "cherry picked"

Already stated, they've chosen EVs over ICEVs.

 

Added plus that the energy mostly comes from hydro.  Kudos to the people & govt taking advantage of that.

 

Unlike other countries, that let fossil fuel industry dictate energy production.   There really is no reason why 'most' countries, can't be energized by solar, hydro, thermal energy production.

 

Oh wait, we know why they aren't ... 

 

Thailand being a prime example, as no reason 100% of energy isn't coming from solar & hydro production.  Especially with CN so close & components inexpensive.

 

Thankfully the people aren't waiting.  I see more & more solar systems monthly.  My installer added a 2nd crew, as they are non stop installing systems.  At least 3 systems a week per crew, I believe.  Our system only took 1 day to install, inverter, 18 panels & ESS on a one story house.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

What does the size of the population have to do with whether the consumers prefer EVs over ICEVs? Thanks to its topography, EVs are the better choice for Norwegians. Cheaper to run and cleaner air to boot. 
 

Norway has NOT mandated only zero emissions for 2025. This is merely an objective. In other words, they have a choice. And they have clearly chosen.

Norway’s Oil Demand Hasn’t Crashed Despite Record EV Market Share

Norwegians, like other consumers, are concerned about vehicle range, and many opt for hybrids or gasoline-fueled vehicles to travel longer distances, according to the bank.

“Another possibility is that electric vehicles are used for short distances, but Norwegians still rely on fossil fuels to cover longer distances,” UBS said in the note.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Norways-Oil-Demand-Hasnt-Crashed-Despite-Record-EV-Market-Share.html

Norwegians no different to thais having access to both EV and ICE vehicles

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Norway’s Oil Demand Hasn’t Crashed Despite Record EV Market Share

Norwegians, like other consumers, are concerned about vehicle range, and many opt for hybrids or gasoline-fueled vehicles to travel longer distances, according to the bank.

“Another possibility is that electric vehicles are used for short distances, but Norwegians still rely on fossil fuels to cover longer distances,” UBS said in the note.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Norways-Oil-Demand-Hasnt-Crashed-Despite-Record-EV-Market-Share.html

Norwegians no different to thais having access to both EV and ICE vehicles

Reading the article as well as the links to it, I get a different impression. From one of the links:

 

• Although EVs make up about 90% of all new car sales in Norway, fuel demand has only seen a 10% fall from 2017 to 2023, remaining relatively stable.
• Research reveals that the modest decline in road fuel is due to increased fuel usage by heavy-duty vehicles, negating the impact of EVs on fuel demand.
• The shift to BEVs needs to extend to buses and trucks for a significant decrease in fuel consumption, raising questions for countries following Norway's lead in EV adoption.

 

Without knowing the exact breakdown of fuel consumption by the different categories of vehicles, it’s not possible to paint an accurate picture. If fuel usage by heavy duty vehicles have traditionally been by far the biggest consumers, then even switching all passenger vehicles over to electric would not make much of a dent in overall fuel usage. There can be no doubt however that an EV travelling 100 km uses less fuel than a comparable ICEV. I would go as far as to say that the amount of fuel consumed is er.. let me bring my calculator out… Ah yes, the amount of fuel consumed is zero.

 

 

[Rampant Rabbit]

6 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

What does the size of the population have to do with whether the consumers prefer EVs over ICEVs? Thanks to its topography, EVs are the better choice for Norwegians. Cheaper to run and cleaner air to boot. 
 

Norway has NOT mandated only zero emissions for 2025. This is merely an objective. In other words, they have a choice. And they have clearly chosen.

Without the govt incentives they would not have chosen ev's to this  degree, if you  have a  small  population in such a large land area its easier to produce the amount of electricity to  supply them especially when you have tons of hydro (which I mentioned due to its location re  read it) therefore its not a level playing field in any shape or  form its been massively subsidised  all of these subisidies will evaporate . Just as UK ev's  buyers are  now finding out with car tax being introduced for ev's. Norway is the exception to the rule for those  reasons and not typical of the ev market worldwide.  Norways electricity is very cheap if it was at a more "normal" price do you think they would  still buy them . Norway is the exception to the rule but held up as a poster boy  and as "the norm" it isnt its an outlier. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses

Edited October 6 by Rampant Rabbit

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Without the govt incentives they would not have chosen ev's to this  degree, if you  have a  small  population in such a large land area its easier to produce the amount of electricity to  supply them especially when you have tons of hydro (which I mentioned due to its location re  read it) therefore its not a level playing field in any shape or  form its been massively subsidised  all of these subisidies will evaporate . Just as UK ev's  buyers are  now finding out with car tax being introduced for ev's. Norway is the exception to the rule for those  reasons and not typical of the ev market worldwide.  Norways electricity is very cheap if it was at a more "normal" price do you think they would  still buy them . Norway is the exception to the rule but held up as a poster boy  and as "the norm" it isnt its an outlier. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses

Most of the incentives you list have finished sometime ago, that doesn’t explain the 96.4% EV market share in September this year.

 

You mentioned the UK, in August the UK exceeded it’s target for the year of 22%, the UK is storming ahead with EV’s.

 

China, more than half of vehicles sold are EV’s.

 

Thailand approx 15% of new passenger vehicles are EV’s, new figures imminent.

 

People like EV’s, they prefer the superior driving experience.  That the driving experience is superior cannot be argued.

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Without the govt incentives they would not have chosen ev's to this  degree, if you  have a  small  population in such a large land area its easier to produce the amount of electricity to  supply them especially when you have tons of hydro (which I mentioned due to its location re  read it) therefore its not a level playing field in any shape or  form its been massively subsidised  all of these subisidies will evaporate . Just as UK ev's  buyers are  now finding out with car tax being introduced for ev's. Norway is the exception to the rule for those  reasons and not typical of the ev market worldwide.  Norways electricity is very cheap if it was at a more "normal" price do you think they would  still buy them . Norway is the exception to the rule but held up as a poster boy  and as "the norm" it isnt its an outlier. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses

People always have the option of voting the idiots out.  Especially since they don't have the interest of the people that they are working for and cater to big business and fossil fuel.

 

But, you can't fix stupid 

[Rampant Rabbit]

38 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Most of the incentives you list have finished sometime ago, that doesn’t explain the 96.4% EV market share in September this year.

 

You mentioned the UK, in August the UK exceeded it’s target for the year of 22%, the UK is storming ahead with EV’s.

 

China, more than half of vehicles sold are EV’s.

 

Thailand approx 15% of new passenger vehicles are EV’s, new figures imminent.

 

People like EV’s, they prefer the superior driving experience.  That the driving experience is superior cannot be argued.

Many UK dealers are pre registering ev  cars as they are  obliged to sell a  set amount ( large fines) and arent meeting the targets, they are dumped on the second hand market, you can search many with just 100 miles or much  less  on, thus  "sales" arent real sales, electricity in China is also very cheap as with many Nordic  countries and Iceland its almost half of the UK price . Chinese are dumping cars in Thailand I guess at a  loss when I see 2-300 k off new evs  from some manufacturers. Im not arguing about  driving experience thats personal although  debatable as some say its hard to keep a constant speed unless cruise is  on, its either OFF or  ON that was a  good review I read of   the BYD SEAL recently. Norway has stated it wants to phase out diesel 2025 this  will increase the price of older diesel vehicles but then they will, be restricted by clean air zones. Its not really a choice because its  enviro friendly or a better experience id say its  solely down to cheap electricity and govt incentives.

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Many UK dealers are pre registering ev  cars as they are  obliged to sell a  set amount ( large fines) and arent meeting the targets, they are dumped on the second hand market, you can search many with just 100 miles or much  less  on, thus  "sales" arent real sales, electricity in China is also very cheap as with many Nordic  countries and Iceland its almost half of the UK price . Chinese are dumping cars in Thailand I guess at a  loss when I see 2-300 k off new evs  from some manufacturers. Im not arguing about  driving experience thats personal although  debatable as some say its hard to keep a constant speed unless cruise is  on, its either OFF or  ON that was a  good review I read of   the BYD SEAL recently. Norway has stated it wants to phase out diesel 2025 this  will increase the price of older diesel vehicles but then they will, be restricted by clean air zones. Its not really a choice because its  enviro friendly or a better experience id say its  solely down to cheap electricity and govt incentives.

 

I don’t think China is dumping EV’s in Thailand, because there is in no way parity between the prices in Thailand, even after huge discounts compared to the prices in China.

 

The prices in China are massively higher than the prices in Thailand, even after the discounts.

[vinny41]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Most of the incentives you list have finished sometime ago, that doesn’t explain the 96.4% EV market share in September this year.

 

You mentioned the UK, in August the UK exceeded it’s target for the year of 22%, the UK is storming ahead with EV’s.

 

China, more than half of vehicles sold are EV’s.

 

Thailand approx 15% of new passenger vehicles are EV’s, new figures imminent.

 

People like EV’s, they prefer the superior driving experience.  That the driving experience is superior cannot be argued.

R.Y.1 Private passenger car with no more than 7 people for September total number 36,567 Number of EV's  4,495 market share 12.3%

As for the UK SMMT has recently written a letter to Rachel Reeves MP Chancellor of the Exchequer 

"So far this year, one in six new car buyers has chosen a ZEV.1 Volumes are up but market share is barely moving. The van transition is even more challenged – with ZEVs accounting for just one in 20 registrations.2 The ZEV mandate demands 22% of every brand’s new car sales and 10% of new van sales be zero emission in 2024. As an industry we will likely miss those targets and a significant number of brands face the prospect of either buying credits from another company or paying swingeing compliance payments. " 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/UK-Auto-Open-letter-to-the-Chancellor-ZEV-incentives-call.pdf

It would appear that the SMMT doesn't agree with your assement that the UK is storming ahead with EV's

Edited October 6 by vinny41
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[vinny41]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t think China is dumping EV’s in Thailand, because there is in no way parity between the prices in Thailand, even after huge discounts compared to the prices in China.

 

The prices in China are massively higher than the prices in Thailand, even after the discounts.

This chart shows the price of cars in Yuan and the equivalent price in THB and then it shows the price of the same vehicle when it arrives in Thailand 

as you can see the increase in price for Thailand varies by Brand  with Byd with the lowest price increase for Thailand

Some of the vehicles listed are not part of EV 3.5 subsidy agreement and therefore are subject to normal customs duties but it does show overall that the prices of EV's are cheaper in China compared to Thailand

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=3247565412044635&set=gm.7927927447327783&idorvanity=2389905174463399