Denied non-O covid extension Thai child stay with me. Ombudsman? Child rights?

[Liverpool Lou]

7 hours ago, Fert said:

I'll explain. It's easy. The multi-entry visa did not require the declaration of income, since 90 days of stay is the border of automatic residence in many countries (maybe all over the world?) . As soon as you become a resident, they hang income declarations and other things on you. Before the pandemic, the income of 1200-1500 USD was enough for the birth of a child. All basic functions work the same way as long-stay visas (resident). When they closed the borders and created quarantines, the income of 1200-1500 USD turned out to be a little insufficient for border runs. And there is a child. He's already living. I believe that depriving a child of one parent and putting him in prison on the basis of a pandemic is psychopathic nonsense

What?  Thought you said it was "easy" [to understand your OP]!

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Fert said:

I would be grateful if someone could help draft a statement or a lawsuit against the government.

Any lawyer would have no problem doing that for you.

[Liverpool Lou]

30 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

he is playing the victim card.

 

Clearly never considered plan B of obtaining 12 month extension based on marriage.

In fact hasn't even mentioned it along with explanation of why it wouldn't work. Lack of finances or whatever.

Reading between the lines, he's skint.

[Resident Alien]

7 hours ago, Fert said:

Changes have taken place everywhere because of the pandemic. But not to such an extent that, under equal conditions, it would threaten prison, deportation and a blacklist. Which actually turns into deprivation of parental rights and orphanhood of a child. They just got used to blurring everything with little things, not accepting the reason and the result.

I  think I understand your problem, but have you also asked yourself if maybe you yourself could have been doing something different to avoid the situation you are now in?

I believe even before the pandemic there were rules and regulations in place for people to stay in Thailand legally so they can take care of a child and/or wife/husband. Deportation and blacklist is nothing new if you do not have a valid stamp in your passport that allows you to stay in Thailand.

Getting angry at the government will not help you to stay.

 

You can still stay in Thailand if you follow the immigration rules. Maybe not the way you like it, but this is the way it is.

Sort out your finances as required by immigration and get an extension of stay.

Enjoy Thailand and take care of the child.

[Russell17au]

The OP sounds very much like an American I came across in Savvanakhet about 3-4 years ago who had the same arrogant attitude. This idiot in Savvanakhet carried on about he doesn't have to give them a copy of his passport information page because he has been coming there for 13 years and they have enough copies of his information page, well he carried on like a right royal goose when he got to the window and they told him to go across the street and get his passport page copied. He became real abusive and refused to move away from the window so the girl called security who had to physically remove him from the area. He must have settled down a bit because the next afternoon when you pick up your Visa he was there and he carried on again when he was informed that his 1 Year Multi Entry Marriage Visa was rejected because he only had 2 months left on his passport. He could not even return to Thailand so he had to travel to the American Embassy in Vientianne and stay there until his new passport arrived and then go through all this procedure again. No sympathy for anyone who takes that type of attitude.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Russell17au

[rickudon]

You only need an income of 1250 US dollars (brought into the country each month) to get an extension for marriage. Yes, exchange rates can change but he said he had about this or more. Alternatives -

 

1. if you have a reasonable credit rating in your own country, borrow 13,000 dollars or equivalent, transfer to Thailand and get your marriage extension (this is what i did, although i could have gone the monthly route, as i did when embassy letters where used).

2. Use an agent (but need some money).

3. Overstay (a short term alternative with no good outcomes)

4. Leave until you can meet requirements.

 

As for legal action, very little chance of success. Would cost a fortune in lawyers and court costs, and take for ever - probably while in detention. Just because you didn't need to show an income to get your 'O' visa doesn't mean that you never have to - the Visa is time limited and extensions have different rules. The Covid extensions were a gift from the government - they could have just deported everyone once their visa expired, or put them in detention until they left of their own accord.

 

Do not know where the OP comes from, but he should have done the marriage extension years ago.  Maybe doesn't have as much as claimed.

[BritTim]

8 hours ago, Fert said:

So, the reason for depriving a child of a parent is the closure of borders due to a pandemic

First, I sympathetic to the problem you and others face in staying in Thailand with family when you have limited income. My answer below reflects reality, not any criticism.

 

The use of border bounces to remain in Thailand with a multiple entry visa was never the intended way for someone to live full time in Thailand. It was expected that holders of such visas would use them for visiting Thailand, not living here. It is true that, as long as you avoided certain strict border checkpoints, your use of border bounces to stay indefinitely in Thailand was tolerated. However, from the point of view of the Thai authorities, the closure of the border should not have affected your ability to live in Thailand with your family, because the fully approved method for doing so (long term extensions of stay) was unaffected by the border closures.

 

Your argument that the simple fact that you have fathered a child in Thailand should entitle you to live in Thailand for ever, regardless of any other immigration rules may or may not have merit. What is certainly true, however, is that the Thai authorities do not accept such an argument. You will need to find a way to stay that satisfies the laws as they are written, not the way you feel would be just.

[AustinRacing]

Having a chip on your shoulder will make things harder when dealing with authorities here. They love it! You don’t get far with it. 

[MajorTom]

35 minutes ago, BritTim said:

The use of border bounces to remain in Thailand with a multiple entry visa was never the intended way for someone to live full time in Thailand. It was expected that holders of such visas would use them for visiting Thailand, not living here.

 

Is this really the case? Serious question. I know it has been mentioned many times but it is actually published somewhere?

[LukKrueng]

9 hours ago, Fert said:

Changes have taken place everywhere because of the pandemic. But not to such an extent that, under equal conditions, it would threaten prison, deportation and a blacklist. Which actually turns into deprivation of parental rights and orphanhood of a child. They just got used to blurring everything with little things, not accepting the reason and the result.

Seems you enjoy your anger over nothing...

It is very simple. All replies so far have suggested solutions for you, yet you refuse to accept that you're wrong.

If you have a multi entry visa -feel free to go somewhere out of Thailand and return for 3 more months. Closed borders? That's a fact you have to accept. Thailand pass, test and go, sandbox, quarantine - facts we all have to live with. No one is making you illegal, no one is forcing you to leave your son and go away.

And here's another option for you: go back to your country and take your family with you.

[zyphodb]

9 hours ago, Fert said:

If the parents have the same problem, I propose to act collectively against the psychopaths in power

While I completely sympathise with you, trying to sue this Gov. that's in charge is ludicrous. All that'll happen is you'll either get thrown out all the sooner or you'll end up locked up in the immigrants jail in Bangkok. The only thing to do is to either put 400k in the bank or go to an Agents, bite the bullet and pay over the odds for a visa. If you care about your family and don't have the 400k thats your only option...

[BritTim]

45 minutes ago, MajorTom said:

Is this really the case? Serious question. I know it has been mentioned many times but it is actually published somewhere?

It is a fact that certain land borders (e.g. Poipet) have been known to block border runners trying to use multiple entry visas (including Non O) purely to extend their stay in Thailand. Their argument for doing so is that you should use a long term extension when living in Thailand. While I am not aware of anyone being denied entry at airports when trying to use a multiple entry Non O, some airports have denied entry to people trying to do something similar with multiple entry tourist visas.

 

In my opinion, Immigration has no legal right to deny entry to those with valid visas (except pursuant to clearly defined reasons in the Immigration Act). The fact that they sometimes do anyway at some locations indicates the strong view of Immigration on the "correct" way of staying long term in Thailand.

 

Another indication is that it steadily became harder to get multiple entry visas (of any kind) outside of your home country.

Edited February 3, 2022 by BritTim

[KanchanaburiGuy]

10 hours ago, Fert said:

See. A basic foundation is used everywhere. If you are ill, you need to establish the cause (basis) of the disease, and not treat the symptoms. If there is a crime, say murder, then the motives are established. Maybe it's self-defense or vice versa, premeditated and planned murder. The types of punishments are completely different. Just like the treatment of diseases is completely different - either you eliminate the cause of the disease, or you treat the symptoms. So, the reason for depriving a child of a parent is the closure of borders due to a pandemic. I consider this an absolutely inadequate excuse, because I intend to protect the rights of the child.

Children get separated from one parent ALL THE TIME! It happens with divorce. It happens when a parent dies. It happens with out-of-town/overseas work. It happens with abandonment. It sometimes even happens when the mother never even bothers to tell the father she is/was pregnant.

 

Some parents relinquish custody of their children to grandparents or other family members; sometimes with the actual parent pretending to be an older sibling, instead.

 

For a large chunk of two years, there were people all over the world who could not reconnect with their families, because of Covid border closures. There were  fathers who literally didn't get to touch their newborn babies for 6 months, 12 months, 18 months!

 

Yes, it is unfortunate that an administrative quirk could cause one non-citizen, guest-in-the-country parent to be separated from their child, and vice versa. But sorry, that's one of the risks you took when you made the choices you made. 

 

Besides, while you seem to describe such a forced separation as a horror among horrors, the simple fact is, the same thing happens literally millions of times each year, as I've outlined above. So unless you plan to leave the child with people you think are truly horrible people, there's no reason to get all dramatic about it. It's no worse than what millions of children experience each and every year: One loving parent taking care of them while the other parent is "away!"

 

And then: Work on the solutions!

 

Right now, at today's exchange rate, $1,300 USD = about 43,000 baht. (You described an income of $1,200 to $1,500 USD/monthly.)

 

That alone----(as of this moment)----is enough to qualify for the marriage extension. So, even if you can't sock 400K into an account right away, you may be financially in the clear, regardless. 

 

(Plus, didn't I read somewhere that if you're short on the 400K, the shortfall can be overlooked if monthy income makes up the difference? In other words, if you don't have 400K and don't have 40,000/mo, the two shortfalls can be combined somehow to show an acceptable level of financial responsibility? I think I did read this. Somewhere, anyway! Lol)

 

I suggests: Quit making a mountain out of a molehill, and buckle down. Do whatever you need to do! Then, the unfairly-separated-from-children problem......... solves itself! 

 

CHEERS!

Edited February 3, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy
Clarification of points.

[blackcab]

5 hours ago, Fert said:

I would be grateful if someone could help draft a statement or a lawsuit against the government.

 

@Fert Forum rule 5, which you agreed to when you became a member of this community, states that:

 

You will not use ASEAN NOW as a platform to gather support to effect changes on religious, political, or governmental issues.

 

Please stop that line of discussion.

[MajorTom]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

It is a fact that certain land borders (e.g. Poipet) have been known to block border runners trying to use multiple entry visas (including Non O) purely to extend their stay in Thailand. Their argument for doing so is that you should use a long term extension when living in Thailand. While I am not aware of anyone being denied entry at airports when trying to use a multiple entry Non O, some airports have denied entry to people trying to do something similar with multiple entry tourist visas.

 

In my opinion, Immigration has no legal right to deny entry to those with valid visas (except pursuant to clearly defined reasons in the Immigration Act). The fact that they sometimes do anyway at some locations indicates the strong view of Immigration on the "correct" way of staying long term in Thailand.

 

Another indication is that it steadily became harder to get multiple entry visas (of any kind) outside of your home country.

Ok, so its someones personal opinion then.

 

For me and probably many others it would make more sense to have a multi entry non-o visa, than to do the extension in country.

In normal times when i work full time, its a slim chance i would be in the country long enough to complete any marriage extension. And about zero chance i would be here long enough - at the correct time, every year.

[Gottfrid]

12 hours ago, Fert said:

I consider this an absolutely inadequate excuse, because I intend to protect the rights of the child.

Good Luck with that attitude. It will probably sit very well with immigration. Try and eat a little bit of humble cake. You are in a foreign country, you created a child, you are obligated to know the rules if you wish to call yourself a responsible father.

It´s not you that set the rules in this country, they were here before you came, and we all have to live up to, and with, rules. You are just one of too many, that think you can come to Thailand with to small economy, try and live on the wrong purpose of visa, just because some embassies to not ask for proof of funds as they should. Just consider it, what is your complaint? Se the facts, you have been living on luck until now.

I know it hard, but that´s life. Just face it. Either you have the money necessary to stay and take care of your child. In all other cases, you have been acting as an irresponsible person with no plan or back up. Then it´s just to face the music.

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, MajorTom said:

For me and probably many others it would make more sense to have a multi entry non-o visa, than to do the extension in country.

I read your post earlier and sort of skip as slightly off topic.

You are correct in that there is nothing in writing about the use of ME marriage visa that many obtain from places such as Savannakhet..

I'm jealous of that option (not married).

If married it would be my go to visa 100%.

 

Reference to borders attitude is a nonsense especially Poipet, which everyone avoids regardless of entry type. 

It's a valid visa and has no issues pre covid. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by DrJack54

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, MajorTom said:

Ok, so its someones personal opinion then.

 

For me and probably many others it would make more sense to have a multi entry non-o visa, than to do the extension in country.

In normal times when i work full time, its a slim chance i would be in the country long enough to complete any marriage extension. And about zero chance i would be here long enough - at the correct time, every year.

It was more than a handful of rogue officials that drove policy changes restricting the use of border bounces to stay long term in Thailand. The same is true of limitations on tourist visa issuance at nearby consulates, including the elimination of double and triple entry tourist visas, and stiffer requirements, in general, for visas with few exceptions. Some officials are sympathetic towards families with low incomes, trying to survive, but the consensus is definitely that long term residents should use long term extensions.

 

This should not affect you. You say that you work abroad, and come to Thailand on visits. That is what everyone (even the strictest immigration officials) would regard as appropriate use of a multiple entry Non O visa. However, if Covid had not happened, the steady tightening of controls on making in/out border runs to stay indefinitely would have continued.. It remains to be seen whether, when borders reopen, sentiment among the powers that be will have changed. I hope they will lighten up, but if the authorities can figure out a way to eliminate multiple entry Non O visas, without hurting people like you, I fear they may do so. The online e-visa system has already eliminated them.

[DrJack54]

29 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I hope they will lighten up, but if the authorities can figure out a way to eliminate multiple entry Non O visas, without hurting people like you, I fear they may do so

Scaremongering.

Yes granted that anytime things can change.

No need to guess what might happen with ME marriage in the future.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by DrJack54

[natway09]

Better,  being a hothead that you contact a good agent & have minimal contact with Immigration in person. Your attitude as on here could lock doors for good 

You should have seen the covid extension stopping coming & made arrangements accordingly like leaving the country, obtaining a visa & returning or saving or transferring a bit of money along the way to enable you toget a marriage visa..

Remember all standard visa are NON IMMIGRANT. Also remember there are hundreds of parents in NZ for example that have not seen their kids now for 2 years due to covid.

 

 

[volsfan]

Either get an agent, or start looking to near countries for a border run. I think Singapore is open to the fully vaxxed, and the PI is opening soon. Still have to do test and go when returning, but better than getting arrested, deported, and black-listed. 

[NanaSomchai]

12 hours ago, Fert said:

I would be grateful if someone could help draft a statement or a lawsuit against the government. I don't speak English very well and use a translator. The basis is the actual deprivation of a Thai child of an official parent on the basis of conditions that were created by the government this month.. The actual obstruction of the extension of the conditions on the basis of which the child was born and is still growing. The child was born in an official marriage, the parents are officially recorded in the birth certificate. There were no requirements for owning 400,000 baht on the account. Due to the fact that the borders were closed, the movement between the countries has sharply risen in price, the requirements for updating visas every 3 months have become financially impossible. I demand either to return the previous conditions for the child, or to recognize such a category of children as illegitimate, to invalidate the birth certificate, since financial evidence of 400,000 was not provided. And to introduce this requirement for the birth of children in Thailand with one foreign parent. To recognize that without 400,000 baht in the account, a foreign parent will not be considered a parent. This requirement should be introduced simultaneously with the termination of extensions of covid visas for this category of people and will continue until the next changes. To make everything clear and understandable. In general terms, the meaning is clear, if they do something that is recognized as illegal, then those laws that allowed them to do it legally should be repealed. And they will have to break their heads how they are going to retroactively cancel the birth of children and the duties of parents.

I quoted your entire post but I stopped reading at the bolded and underlined part.

 

You need to adjust your attitude. This is Thailand.

 

There is no such thing as "I demand". There is no demanding on your part, no matter how right you think you are or how entitled you think you are, you have to see it through the eyes of a Thai, to them (specially the immigration officers), they are doing you a FAVOR by letting you live/work/abode/study on Thai soil.

 

You have absolutely zero rights to them (until/unless you possess the Thai citizenship).

 

Going the legal conflicting route, refusing to heed their repeated advices, refusing to listen to other posters on this forum and generally speaking trying to "defeat" the system rather than playing along is going to accomplish nothing but anger them off in the end, which is presumably not what you want to achieve.

 

Let me be the one breaking it down to you; I understand your frustration, hell, being a father of 2 Thai children myself I could argue that we are on the same boat, however unlike you after my first child was born I quickly understood and caught up early on that again this is Thailand; Being a foreign father of a Thai child does not grant you any special rights or treatments.

 

TL;DR: You need to do what the others have suggested in this thread; Leave Thailand, return ASAP with the right visa and at least 400k THB stashed in a Thai bank account. And in case this isn't perfectly clear to you, you shouldn't be the one to complain as a retirement visa would require one to have 800k THB stashed in a Thai bank. Instead, consider yourself lucky and grateful you most likely can get away with it with "only" 400k THB as a financial requirement as you could have had it way worse.

 

Change your attitude, this is Thailand, there is no such thing as "I demand", again you need to always at all times keep in mind that by letting you stay in the Kingdom, they are doing you a FAVOR.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by NanaSomchai

[NanaSomchai]

4 hours ago, natway09 said:

Better,  being a hothead that you contact a good agent & have minimal contact with Immigration in person. Your attitude as on here could lock doors for good.

Totally this. Fighting the system is a guaranteed lose, don't fight the system, play along with it instead.

[RJRS1301]

Fert, we are guests in this country, not residents or citizens, and as such we have a responsibilty to abode by the laws, rules, legislations, guidelines which the government impose on all GUESTS.

I am sure you like all of us, have rules (unwritten) for guests in your home, which you expect them to abide by, and they do not comply ir abuse your hospitality, you ask them to leave, or do not invite them back.

We, as guests may not like the rules, however if we choose to abuse them, or fail to comply with them , we have NO RIGHTS, and the government can order we leave their  country, they have no obligation to you becuase you decided to become a father. LIve by the rules or leave, simple, your child is not their responsibilty, if you choose not to, then you as father have abrogated YOUR RESPONSIBILTY.

Put the victim card away, and comply or leave.

I advise you adjust your attitude, as their attitude adjuster is more powerful than yours. Unles of course the idea of dention and deportation and banning appeals to you.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by RJRS1301

[ubonjoe]

On 2/3/2022 at 8:06 AM, Fert said:

Now they have made all this illegal. It is necessary to declare infringement of the rights of the child against the government. The Ombudsman? Protecting children's rights?

I think your best option would be to contact the Human Rights Commision. You can even do a online complaint.

See: https://www.nhrc.or.th/Home.aspx?lang=en-US