Joe Biden says Putin is a 'war criminal'

[TorquayFan]

Howls of anguish in Moscow as Joe Biden makes the 'war criminal' comment ????

 

With all due respect to the Russian people, I say, well done Joe ! Or to pose it differently, if Russia's unprovoked destruction of Ukraine and the murder of tens of thousands of Ukrainians is NOT a war crime then FGS what is??

 

Diplomacy is always important but Russia's murderous actions have to be called out - every Country should say this quite clearly, Putin IS a war criminal and Putin can never be accepted again by the International community. Russia itself is a pariah state whilst he is there https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/17/ukraine-urges-leaders-echo-joe-bidens-condemnation-vladimir/

 

One day, lock him up - throw away the key.

 

It's suggested that Biden's comments might jeopardise 'peace talks'. To put  that in perspective, hopes for any meaningful accord with Putin's Russia are tenuous and we should remember that Russia denied repeatedly any intention to invade Ukraine in the first place. Putin is a bare faced liar as well as a 'war criminal'.

 

I will be interested to see the extent to which commercial interests reassert themselves if/when hostilities cease - vis the comprehensive sanctions now in place. No way should the ending of sanctions be introduced in 'peace' negotiations. On the contrary - I think the World should assert NOW that all sanctions will be maintained for at least 5 years. It's not about 'punishing' Russia - just a nod to justice.

 

I see Sky now say 90% of Mariupol's buildings are now destroyed or severely damaged - who foots that bill??

 

 

[Whale]

I agree with you.

[Iamfalang]

What about the president of China?   All war criminals, different degrees of magnitude.   If you win the war, the magnitude somehow drops.   Name the county….. all have secret horrible operations.    No clue how long Putin will last.   Could be way too long…..

[TorquayFan]

Whale - thanks.

 

Iam - China - for sure guilty of human rights abuses. For Putin - one more second is too long . . . .

 

As for 'ourselves', (the West), as just one citizen, I would feel easier if the 2nd Iraq war had been avoided - Russia quickly invoked Blair and Bush as war criminals when Biden made his comment - and not wholly without justification.

 

But that was then - (hopefully we've learned) - and this is now.

 

[Kinnock]

Of course Putin is a war criminal - but if country leaders can be prosecuted, Blair and Bush should have been charged for the WMD fiasco.  The leaders of China, Myanmar and almost every African country should also be worried.

 

Now I think about it, I'm struggling to name a good country leader from the current crop.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Putin IS a war criminal and Putin can never be accepted again by the International community

The war crimes tribunal has a very good record in bringing people to justice, lets hope Putin is added to it.

[Rimmer]

An couple of inflammatory posts also a post citing a link to a 2020 off topic article have been removed 

[OJAS]

19 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The war crimes tribunal has a very good record in bringing people to justice, lets hope Putin is added to it.

Agree 100% - although it strikes me as highly unlikely that he would surrender quietly, just as Slobodan Milosevic did not 20 years ago:-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milošević

 

Thankfully Mother Nature eventually dispensed the appropriate punishment before a verdict could be delivered in Milosevic's case! Maybe Putin could suffer a similar fate if various rumours were to be believed???

 

[cmarshall]

Beyond ridiculous that Americans castigate Putin as a war criminal.  Putin is, in fact, a war criminal, but he is a piker by comparison with Pres. George W. Bush.  The only country since Pol Pot's Cambodia to kill upwards of one million innocent people is the USA in the Second Iraq War.  

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Beyond ridiculous that Americans castigate Putin as a war criminal.  Putin is, in fact, a war criminal, but he is a piker by comparison with Pres. George W. Bush.  The only country since Pol Pot's Cambodia to kill upwards of one million innocent people is the USA in the Second Iraq War.  

Got a link? I don't disagree that the US should have pursued non military solutions to the 9/11 attacks but your numbers appear to be exaggerated.

[cmarshall]

9 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Got a link? I don't disagree that the US should have pursued non military solutions to the 9/11 attacks but your numbers appear to be exaggerated.

The October 2006 Lancet study by Gilbert Burnham (of Johns Hopkins University) and co-authors^[32][33] estimated total excess deaths (civilian and non-civilian) related to the war of 654,965 excess deaths up to July 2006. The 2006 study was based on surveys conducted between May 20 and July 10, 2006. More households were surveyed than during the 2004 study, allowing for a 95% confidence interval of 392,979 to 942,636 excess Iraqi deaths. Those estimates were far higher than other available tallies at the time.^[169]

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The October 2006 Lancet study by Gilbert Burnham (of Johns Hopkins University) and co-authors^[32][33] estimated total excess deaths (civilian and non-civilian) related to the war of 654,965 excess deaths up to July 2006. The 2006 study was based on surveys conducted between May 20 and July 10, 2006. More households were surveyed than during the 2004 study, allowing for a 95% confidence interval of 392,979 to 942,636 excess Iraqi deaths. Those estimates were far higher than other available tallies at the time.^[169]

They included military deaths, hardly "innocent". As I said, your original claim was higher than other estimates but still less than your claim. This is why I asked for a link. References to facts always provide context. In this case, your original claim has to be seen as an exaggeration. I'm not downplaying that thousands of Iraqis died unnecessarily, just looking for the facts.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Beyond ridiculous that Americans castigate Putin as a war criminal.  Putin is, in fact, a war criminal, but he is a piker by comparison with Pres. George W. Bush.  The only country since Pol Pot's Cambodia to kill upwards of one million innocent people is the USA in the Second Iraq War.  

It was President Biden who called Putin a war criminal, not former President Bush.

 

[ozimoron]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Syria, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Georgia. Plus Ukraine. There is no small time about this criminal despot. You are using numbers to protect Putin? Are you suggesting that he's not a war criminal?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Syria, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Georgia. Plus Ukraine. There is no small time about this criminal despot. You are using numbers to protect Putin? Are you suggesting that he's not a war criminal?

Plus threatening to use nuclear weapons and absolutely laying the groundwork to use biological weapons. (Which he has already used to kill opponents).

 

But….But…. But…… whatabout….?!

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Putin hasnt actually committed any "war crimes" though . 

  Biden made the suggestions, but he doesnt really know what hes talking about 

Really? Over 100 children killed and over 1200 still believed trapped in the theatre. Not to mention the indiscriminate bombing of residential areas. How are these not war crimes? Why is the ICJ in the Ukraine investigating war crimes?

[Fat is a type of crazy]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Putin hasnt actually committed any "war crimes" though . 

  Biden made the suggestions, but he doesnt really know what hes talking about 

It's an interesting delineation between war and war crimes. If you are an aggressor and you can't justify it except for the weakest of weak arguments it seems like a war crime to me. But add to that bombing buildings full of civilians and destroying cities and causing a humanitarian disaster and I think that makes the definition. 

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Let’s see if we can figure out which is the most urgent threat to world peace, possible escalation to nuclear war and very likely escalation to the use of biological weapons.

 

Then ask if this is what the President of the USA should be focussed on.

All of which could have been prevented if they actually started prosecuting war criminals who invade sovereign countries under the same pretense that Putin used to justify invading Ukraine.  Like Bush, Cheney, Blair...

 

If they were rotting away in prison, ya figure the next war criminal may think real hard before invading?  Because Bush, Cheney and Blair are out walking around, Putin thinks he can act with impunity.  He's right.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So you missed the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, the bombing of hospitals, the targeting of refugees…… ?

War crimes are 

 

War crimes

Violations of the laws or customs of war, including:

• Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war
• murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory
• murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas
• killing of hostages
• torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
• plunder of public or private property
• wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
• devastation not justified by military necessity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/overview/crimes_1.shtml

[tgw]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

War crimes are 

 

War crimes

Violations of the laws or customs of war, including:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/overview/crimes_1.shtml

• Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war  CHECK
• murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory
• murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas
• killing of hostages
• torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
• plunder of public or private property CHECK
• wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages CHECK
• devastation not justified by military necessity CHECK

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

All of which could have been prevented if they actually started prosecuting war criminals who invade sovereign countries under the same pretense that Putin used to justify invading Ukraine.  Like Bush, Cheney, Blair...

 

If they were rotting away in prison, ya figure the next war criminal may think real hard before invading?  Because Bush, Cheney and Blair are out walking around, Putin thinks he can act with impunity.  He's right.

It requires a great deal of nativity to believe that Putin is even the slightest bit worried about being prosecuted.

 

Putin has demonstrated his disdain for international law and he will never be tried in The Hague.

 

 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

War crimes are 

 

War crimes

Violations of the laws or customs of war, including:

• Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war
• murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory
• murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas
• killing of hostages
• torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
• plunder of public or private property
• wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
• devastation not justified by military necessity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/overview/crimes_1.shtml

Putin has committed at least several of those offences. Right?

[ozimoron]

According to Harvard Kennedy School's Kathryn Sikkink, Putin needs to be put on trial by a replacement government in Russia.

"If you've had leaders who've committed crimes, you want the new government to be able to put those leaders on trial and hold them criminally accountable using due process for crimes they've committed," she explained. "And if you find them guilty, to sentence them and imprison them."

 

https://www.rawstory.com/lindsey-graham-putin-2656991132/

[FritsSikkink]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:21 PM, Bkk Brian said:

The war crimes tribunal has a very good record in bringing people to justice, lets hope Putin is added to it.

As long there is no one from the USA or Western European countries are involved.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

It is a terrible price for Ukraine to pay for freedom.  If a gangster authoritarian tried to take over your country, that has an imperfect democracy,  what would you do. Rally the allies and fight or say best no one dies, historically we have done bad things at times, let the gangster take control.

It is hard to argue that Ukraine's move towards the west, similar to the Baltic states and other countries, is not because of the extreme bullying of Russia. Yes.. maybe there are weak parallels with Cuba but it's 2022 now.

Think what it means for Ukraine to move towards the West .. integration with other democracies, new standards to maintain, a better economy. The west in 2022 is not as bad as you may think. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

As long their is no one from the USA or Western European countries are involved.

When did the US or any Western nation indiscriminantly bomb civilians in a continued and methodical way? Or machine gun thousands of kids and bury them in secret mass graves?

[Mac Mickmanus]

No, Putin is just an alleged war criminal , it hasnt been proven and it has been denied by the Russians  . 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, Putin is just an alleged war criminal , it hasnt been proven and it has been denied by the Russians  . 

So you don't believe his actions amount to war crimes? I'm asking what you think, we all know that he won't face a court that he doesn't even recognise. I'm trying to flush out the Putin apologists here and make then declare their hand.

[cmarshall]

Just now, Fat is a type of crazy said:

It is a terrible price for Ukraine to pay for freedom.  If a gangster authoritarian tried to take over your country, that has an imperfect democracy,  what would you do. Rally the allies and fight or say best no one dies, historically we have done bad things at times, let the gangster take control.

It is hard to argue that Ukraine's move towards the west, similar to the Baltic states and other countries, is because of the extreme bullying of Russia. Yes.. maybe there are parallels with Cuba but it's 2022 now.

Think what it means for Ukraine to move towards the West .. integration with other democracies, new standards to maintain, a better economy. The west in 2022 is not as bad as you may think. 

Ukraine's freedom is simply not available.  To arm them and encourage them to provoke the Russian bear is the height of cruel stupidity.  Like a lot of people who have seen too many movies, you think this is about morality, but it's not.  It's about great power politics.  The great powers, the US, Russia, and China all pursue their own interests ruthlessly without reference to morality.  

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

As long there is no one from the USA or Western European countries are involved.

I was referring to Putin which is what this topic is about and what is going on right now in the Ukraine