Florida's Don't Say Gay Bill Signed Into Law -- Demagogue's Delight

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Not really answering the question when put on the spot, are you?

Exactly.

Not really interested in the real implications of this bill. 

[frantick]

To believe that the government, via a teacher, is better to guide a child in any grade, other than post K-12 through identity issues, vs a loving parent, is ludicrous. Sure, there will always be exceptions, but better to err on the side of the family vs the state. 

 

The fact that you brought up this issue in the Gay forum just reinforces the fact you were looking for ever more echoes of acceptance. 

 

You're all accepted, we don't care if Tchaikovsky or Lincoln were Gay, good for them. Now move along and be a productive member of a, still, mostly heterosexual society as did they. 

 

You do know that without the hetero family unit, there would be no younger generations to make your pension payments or take care of you in your old age. 

 

Here's where I mention that my lunch partner for 20 years was/is gay. But it rarely came up in conversation, and he never needed attention for the fact. 

[EVENKEEL]

On 4/8/2022 at 12:53 PM, Jingthing said:

 

Ignoring the fact that the bill includes ALL grades.

So let me ask, at what grade should the school bear responsibility of offering training for kids to be what ever gender they please. Just because you were born a boy you can be whatever gender you want, and of course the school will counsel on the how to's.

 

Having 2 daddy's or 2 mommies isn't normal. You know it isn't, perhaps the parents should do some at home lecturing that having 1 mom and 1 dad is the normal way to have a family, but the kid is loved in their particular situation. It shouldn't be the teacher's responsibility.

[frantick]

And to finish my point, I never look at the forum group of the posts; I respond to title subjects. The problem is that, now, the Identity Group is trying to force language, ie speech, through education and laws. I believe in free speech. You can call me a girl, a homophobe, the n word, or whatever, that's your right, and I, unlike you probably, do not see that as violence. I see it as one man's opinion. But please stop indoctrinating children and creating laws that affect my speech. 

 

I will try to pay more attention to the forum groups I am posting in and stay out of this one. Have a great day, I sincerely mean you no harm. 

[Jingthing]

On 4/8/2022 at 3:05 PM, EVENKEEL said:

So let me ask, at what grade should the school bear responsibility of offering training for kids to be what ever gender they please. Just because you were born a boy you can be whatever gender you want, and of course the school will counsel on the how to's.

 

Having 2 daddy's or 2 mommies isn't normal. You know it isn't, perhaps the parents should do some at home lecturing that having 1 mom and 1 dad is the normal way to have a family, but the kid is loved in their particular situation. It shouldn't be the teacher's responsibility.

Schools are not "training" kids on how to be a different gender id.

As far as LGBT kids or kids with same sex parents or much more commonly kids with one whatever parent or LGBT teachers its not a question of normal or abnormal.

Such diversity in families and teachers is a fact of life.

Believe me everyone learns about heteronormative assumptions very early.

[Jingthing]

More about how the far right wing is cynically demagoguing this issue for  political gain. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/07/americas-increased-acceptance-gay-people-isnt-about-schools/

 

America’s increased acceptance of gay people isn’t about schools

 

[Jingthing]

The lies ambitious slimeball politicians tell.

 

 

https://www.advocate.com/politics/2022/4/07/report-story-desantis-uses-support-dont-say-gay-just-lie

 

 

Report: Story DeSantis Uses to Support 'Don't Say Gay' Is 'Just a Lie'

 

 

The Florida governor's description of how a school district handled a student's gender transition is "just a lie," the district's superintendent says, and emails back that up.

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 4/5/2022 at 6:28 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Would a sane adult want their own 5 yr old child to be exposed to gender identity and sexual orientation training in school? It's a yes or no question.

That's not what this bill is about though. It outlaws:

 

Quote

“Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity [...] in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

That means the provisions of the law could apply at all ages and grades, not just grades K-3.

 

As various analysts have pointed out, the language about K-3 is there purely as a fig leaf to disguise what is almost certainly the true intent of the bill, which is to make educators afraid to even mention the topic, for fear of the legal repercussions. Not least because it would allow parents to sue them and/or the school for anything the parent thinks is "not age-appropriate."

[Longwood50]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:52 AM, Jingthing said:

All grades.

What state standards?

Parents any grade may file lawsuits.

So teachers will be forced to erase the existence of LGBT people

What the hell is any teacher in any grade giving lessons on their sex life.   Public schools are their to prepare students teaching them to read, write, do mathmatics, history, science, civics etc.  

Public schools are not to be a place where students should be required to become proficient in the Kama Sutra. 

Teachers have every opportunity outside of the classroom to profess their beliefs on sex to other like minded individuals.  They should not be allowed to indoctrinate what is a captive group in the schools.  No different than it should not be allowed to teach religion, critical race theory, creationism, or anything that is not an a subject intended to foster a childs academics. 

 

[EVENKEEL]

3 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

What the hell is any teacher in any grade giving lessons on their sex life.   Public schools are their to prepare students teaching them to read, write, do mathmatics, history, science, civics etc.  

Public schools are not to be a place where students should be required to become proficient in the Kama Sutra. 

Teachers have every opportunity outside of the classroom to profess their beliefs on sex to other like minded individuals.  They should not be allowed to indoctrinate what is a captive group in the schools.  No different than it should not be allowed to teach religion, critical race theory, creationism, or anything that is not an a subject intended to foster a childs academics. 

 

What he said is what level headed people believe.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

What he said is what level headed people believe.

Its fear mongering is all to whip up the right wing base.

[Jingthing]

How low will right wingers go to seize even more power? There really is no limit! Now they are mainstreaming totally insane QAnon conspiracy theories.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/31/grooming-repugnant-gop-attack-anti-gay-anti-trans/

 

Grooming’: Republicans’ vile new attack on any who criticize them

 

 

What’s the most repulsive accusation you could make about a person? It’s hard to think of anything worse than calling them a pedophile. Which is what conservatives are now doing to anyone who criticizes the anti-gay and anti-trans legislation they’re promoting in state after state.

[EVENKEEL]

53 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Its fear mongering is all to whip up the right wing base.

To me it's common sense.  You call it fear mongering. 

[frantick]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

How low will right wingers go to seize even more power? There really is no limit! Now they are mainstreaming totally insane QAnon conspiracy theories.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/31/grooming-repugnant-gop-attack-anti-gay-anti-trans/

 

Grooming’: Republicans’ vile new attack on any who criticize them

 

 

What’s the most repulsive accusation you could make about a person? It’s hard to think of anything worse than calling them a pedophile. Which is what conservatives are now doing to anyone who criticizes the anti-gay and anti-trans legislation they’re promoting in state after state.

Funny, I see no mention of promoting or excluding hetero sex. Does that make you anti-hetero?

 

That the left still thinks Qanon is a spokesman for most right-of-centers, shows just how brainwashed they've become. 

[Jingthing]

Its all about viciously demonizing and scapegoating LGBT Americans for political gain. 

 

 

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Its fear mongering is all to whip up the right wing base.

 

It is obvious that somehow those that choose alternative lifestyles feel this compelling need to tell and instruct everyone about their sex lives.  Your posts continually on this subject is evidence  of your need.  It is not fear mongering.  It is not wanting a public institution to be "forcing" what should be family values on their children in a captive setting.  No different than teaching religion, politics, or critical race theory. 

I serously doubt you care to continually hear from heterosexuals who wish to share with you the joy of heterosexuality.  The vast majority of people dont care about anothers sex life and they and I  have no idea why you think they should  care about the sexual orientation of others.  

There appears to be this compelling need to evangelize the LGTB lifestyle.  It is not enough to have society not care or accept but rather the LGTB community has this insecurity that is demanding both approval and fealty to the LGTB life. It is as if there is this doubt about their choices and to erase those  doubts they want the public to validate their choice. 

It is not the place whether it is the workplace, or schools to "indoctrinate" values and lifestyle.  What you and others choose is your business and it should remain your business. Trying to "impose" is no more righteous irrspective of whether it is religion, politics, or sexual orientation.  

[jimmybcool]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:10 AM, Jingthing said:

This explains it:

 

 

She didn't humiliate him.  Nor did she answer the question which is of course par for the course. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

46 minutes ago, jimmybcool said:

She didn't humiliate him.  Nor did she answer the question which is of course par for the course. 

 

 

No.

It was a right wing troll bait question.

Its a fake issue.

Such instruction isn't happening.

Similar to the critical race theory fake issue. 

That's a graduate school level subject.

[Jingthing]

Vile anti LGBT bigotry now on the rise nationally. Yes, it  really does look like we are going BACKWARDS.

 

Anti LGBT civil rights legislation being proposed and passed in red states nationally. 

 

Violence and murder of LGBT people will increase. Discrimination (never protected under national law) in housing and employment against LGBT people will increase. Suicides by LGBT already horribly high will go even higher.

 

Why Is the Right Bringing Back Anti-Gay Talking Points? (nymag.com)

 

Quote

 

Why Is the Christian Right Bringing Back Anti-Gay Talking Points?

 

The heavily Christian Republican base was never exactly thrilled about the rise of gay rights, but lately it seems to be regressing from some tolerance back to a more overt form of bigotry. I spoke with senior writer Sarah Jones and political columnist Ed Kilgore about the ominous trend.

 

 

[Jingthing]

The idiocy of these atrocious right wing bigoted laws really knows no bounds. They don't know what gender identity is. They don't know what Critical Race Theory is either. Yet they're on the warpath! Test this -- approach any random right winger that is against CRT and ask him to define it. Ignorance and bigotry so often go hand in hand, and these regressive repressive right wingers are trying to control the education system!

 

With the don't say gay laws, the right wingers want to make LGBT people and history invisible and force teachers to self censure in the extreme to avoid lawsuits. Similarly the racist anti CRT laws seek to do the same thing about race. Slavery? We don't talk about that! We could get sued. 

 

What Is Gender Identity? Not Something Republicans Can Ban! | The Mary Sue

 

Quote

Copycat versions of Florida’s immensley cruel so-called “Don’t Say Gay” law are starting to pop up in states across the country. Versions of the legislation, which so far we’re seeing in at least Ohio, Louisiana, and Georgia, ban “classroom discussion” and “instruction” of “gender identity and sexual orientation.” Similarly, an Oklahoma Republican recently introduced a bill banning books that discuss, among other things, “gender identity.”

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

 

 

These bills force teachers to self censure in ALL GRADES to avoid lawsuit risks.

 

We all know these vile laws that Putin would love are targeting LGBT. 

 

Suppose a student wants to do a class presentation project about Harvey Milk? Too risky to allow. One bigot parent and the school is stuck spending legal fee money they don't have.

 

Thus because of lawsuit risks LGBT anything will be cut in all grades including massive anti LGBT book banning which is already happening.

 

You aren't aware of the high rates of LGBT youth suicide?

 

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

 

 

LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

 

Research has found that attempted suicide rates and suicidal ideation among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) youth are significantly higher than among the general population.[1][2]

 

The passage of laws that discriminate against LGBT people has significant negative impacts on the physical and mental health and well-being of LGBT youth; for example, depression and drug use among LGBT people have been shown to increase significantly after the passage of discriminatory laws.[3] By contrast, the passage of laws that recognize LGBT people as equal with regard to civil rights, such as laws supporting same-sex marriage, may have significant positive impacts on the physical and mental health and well-being of LGBT youth.

[placeholder]

On 4/8/2022 at 12:38 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Teachers personal lives belong in their home, all teachers. These are K-3 kids, how about you teach them abc's, numbers before you give them lessons on what gender they want to be.

 

My little girl says she'd like to be a dog so she can just eat and sleep with no school.  

So you think LBGQT people are a different species? Your child definitely needs to unlearn that lesson from Daddy.

[Atlantis]

"Self-censure" I guess that's one way of framing it....And there I was thinking: since time memorial, state school teachers (and teaching professional elsewhere for that matter) had to put an ounce of thought into what they should and should not talk about in the classroom.

It's a shame that many people who take your (IMO) rather extremist activist views don't realize all of this is not happening in a vacuum. Or maybe you do, and you just don't want to say out loud that you press your personal values onto the parental lives of millions of others.

As for "You aren't aware of the high rates of LGBT youth suicide? " + "LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society."...

I'll happily correct any misunderstanding you may have concerning how causality is established...

[Jingthing]

39 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

"Self-censure" I guess that's one way of framing it....And there I was thinking: since time memorial, state school teachers (and teaching professional elsewhere for that matter) had to put an ounce of thought into what they should and should not talk about in the classroom.

It's a shame that many people who take your (IMO) rather extremist activist views don't realize all of this is not happening in a vacuum. Or maybe you do, and you just don't want to say out loud that you press your personal values onto the parental lives of millions of others.

As for "You aren't aware of the high rates of LGBT youth suicide? " + "LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society."...

I'll happily correct any misunderstanding you may have concerning how causality is established...

Parents aren't professional educators. 

[Atlantis]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Parents aren't professional educators. 

When will you realize that many millions and millions of parents (dare I say many of whom are not 'Trump voters') couldn't give a flying fugg that people like yourself feel professional educations ought to (as in subjectively opine on) the limitations on what their kids should be taught* in schools.
 

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

When will you realize that many millions and millions of parents (dare I say many of whom are not 'Trump voters') couldn't give a flying fugg that people like yourself feel professional educations ought to (as in subjectively opine on) the limitations on what their kids should be taught* in schools.
 

You don't seem to get what these laws do. They are chilling to any kind of speech by anyone on any aspect related to all aspects of LGBT in all grades.

 

When I said these vile bigoted laws intend to erase LGBT people and history that's exactly what I meant.

 

These are clearly fascist laws.

 

Imagine if they were targeting Jews.

[Jingthing]

Correction

Of course I meant self censor not self censure!

 

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2022/04/05/ohio-introduces-its-own-dont-say-gay-bill/

 

NATIONAL

Ohio introduces its own ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill

“Ohio’s Don’t Say Gay bill is an insidious attempt to chill & censor free speech in classrooms- lawmakers are trying to erase LGBTQ+ people”

[placeholder]

42 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

"Self-censure" I guess that's one way of framing it....And there I was thinking: since time memorial, state school teachers (and teaching professional elsewhere for that matter) had to put an ounce of thought into what they should and should not talk about in the classroom.

It's a shame that many people who take your (IMO) rather extremist activist views don't realize all of this is not happening in a vacuum. Or maybe you do, and you just don't want to say out loud that you press your personal values onto the parental lives of millions of others.

As for "You aren't aware of the high rates of LGBT youth suicide? " + "LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society."...

I'll happily correct any misunderstanding you may have concerning how causality is established...

Inclusive Anti-Bullying Policies and Reduced Risk of Suicide Attempts in Lesbian and Gay Youth

Lesbian and gay youths living in counties with fewer school districts with inclusive anti-bullying policies were 2.25 times (95% C.I.: 1.13, 4.49) more likely to have attempted suicide in the past year compared to those living in counties where more districts had these policies. Inclusive anti-bullying policies were significantly associated with a reduced risk for suicide attempts among lesbian and gay youths even after controlling for sociodemographic characteristics (sex, race/ethnicity) and exposure to peer victimization (OR=0.18, 95% CI: 0.03–0.92). In contrast, anti-bullying policies that did not include sexual orientation were not associated with lower suicide attempts among lesbian and gay youths (OR=0.38, 95% CI: 0.02–7.33).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3696185/

 

Gay, bisexual men have lower suicide risk in more tolerant countries

Gay and bisexual men who move from a country with high stigma toward LGBTQ people to one more accepting of LGBTQ rights experience a significantly lower risk of suicide and depression, according to research published by the American Psychological Association.                                                                      The study, which used data from 48 countries, bolsters previous research showing that a country’s anti-LGBTQ laws, policies and social attitudes create structural stigma, which may negatively impact the mental health of gay and bisexual men. This study used a new approach to test the negative mental health consequences of structural stigma by examining data from gay and bisexual men who moved between countries with differing levels of structural stigma.        https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2021/11/gay-men-lower-suicide

Same-sex marriage laws linked with fewer teen suicide attempts

Same-sex marriage policies were associated with a 7% reduction in the proportion of high school students reporting suicide attempts. The association was concentrated among students who were sexual minorities, who attempt suicide at a rate four times higher than heterosexual teenagers, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/impact-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-suicide-risk-implications-assessment-and-treatment

 

 

[Atlantis]

@placeholder

Did you even read even the first link, more than a single paragraph down?     ^_^

Let me just take a good look at the others.

[placeholder]

On 4/8/2022 at 12:38 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Teachers personal lives belong in their home, all teachers. These are K-3 kids, how about you teach them abc's, numbers before you give them lessons on what gender they want to be.

 

My little girl says she'd like to be a dog so she can just eat and sleep with no school.  

I'm still intrigued by your mention of your little girl. Do you understand that your child has no chance to be a dog? (Unless you're the canine equivalent of Mr. Ed) But that she could turn out to be LGBQT?