British press support UK pensioners losing out in Thailand

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it is not "a bit random", it is very specific.

I can only take it you have seen the plan they used in drawing up the reciprocal agreements.

I for one cannot see anything "specific" about the countries that have them. How about Canada, they have agreement but no increases. When that agreement was drawn up the Canadian pension could not be exported. The Canadian government addressed that issue but the UK government declined to follow through on the change.

I think "random" sums up the UK government fairly well.

 

• Barbados
• Bermuda
• Canada
• Chile
• Isle of Man
• Israel
• Jamaica
• Japan
• Jersey and Guernsey
• Mauritius
• New Zealand
• Philippines
• Republics of former Yugoslavia (the Republics of Bosnia-Herzegovina, North Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo)
• South Korea (also known as The Republic of Korea)
• Turkey
• USA
• https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reciprocal-agreements/reciprocal-agreements

[10baht]

5 hours ago, paddypower said:

who'd want to live there?

I am a US citizen and you don't have to tell me about having to pay federal taxes, I pay enough to support a family of 4 on the dole every year. As far as "who'd want to live there?" Let the immigration stats speak for themself.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, hashmodha said:

I just saw we are over 10,800 signatures.....My opinion is this it to do with reciprocal agreement with the countries not included in the index linking of Pensions.... Now what these reciprocal agreements mean I have no idea... Does any one else know?

The reciprocal agreements are to do with Social Security and the UK government decided about 40 years ago that they were not going to enter into any more

agreements, but made an exception for Brexit.

One of the fundamental problems is that the legislation that governs the index linking is embedded in the Social Security Act. The Social Security Act comes before parliament every year but the government controls business in the house and will only allow time for the changes they put forward to be debated. Anyone that wants to bring up frozen pensions just doesn't get the chance and the SS Act gets voted through with everything else unchanged. Nobody wants to vote against it and be seen to be denying an increase in universal credit.

The government could intervene and adjust the legislation if there was a will to do so, they did it for those that would have been affected by Brexit.

[Liverpool Lou]

18 hours ago, sandyf said:

I can only take it you have seen the plan they used in drawing up the reciprocal agreements.

I for one cannot see anything "specific" about the countries that have them. How about Canada, they have agreement but no increases. When that agreement was drawn up the Canadian pension could not be exported. The Canadian government addressed that issue but the UK government declined to follow through on the change.

I think "random" sums up the UK government fairly well.

 

• Barbados
• Bermuda
• Canada
• Chile
• Isle of Man
• Israel
• Jamaica
• Japan
• Jersey and Guernsey
• Mauritius
• New Zealand
• Philippines
• Republics of former Yugoslavia (the Republics of Bosnia-Herzegovina, North Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo)
• South Korea (also known as The Republic of Korea)
• Turkey
• USA
• https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reciprocal-agreements/reciprocal-agreements

Obviously, you have no idea what "random" means, then.

[Liverpool Lou]

20 hours ago, Thunglom said:

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it is not "a bit random", it is very specific.

As I pointed out It varies from country to country and there seems no logic behind it - what do you see as "specific"?

The countries that have the agreements are specific, selected by the governments specifically, they are not chosen at random!

[Thunglom]

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

The countries that have the agreements are specific, selected by the governments specifically, they are not chosen at random!

Oh dear!

Check sandyf's response.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Thunglom

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

The countries that have the agreements are specific, selected by the governments specifically, they are not chosen at random!

As I said you must have seen the plan so you can tell us how they were specifically selected.

Every chance that some minister at the time had some personal connection with one of the countries.

[Neeranam]

On 5/2/2022 at 1:47 AM, webfact said:

Retire in Spain and you still get these increases, and if you decide to move to the Philippines, but not if you live in the Land of the Smiles.

I think I will move there when I retire, 6 months a year anyway. Will I still get the increases?

 

Really not a big deal, living in paradise and complaining about it, only pensioners could moan.

 

I am happy as I will get a full pension from the UK, despite only working there for 4 years or so. 

[kimamey]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:48 AM, LivinLOS said:

People expect too much.. They also have this false idea that paying into a pension is somehow 'thier money returned to them' when it isnt !! Whats paid in now is spent now, whats paid out now is a drain on the current workforce now. You get the benefits of the now payment in government services when you pay it.. 

Plus UK pension input can be an absolute pittance standard class 2 self employed stamp in the UK is 3:15 a week !! 163 quid a year and you can claim a pension with 10 years contribution.. a full pension with 35 years.. And then you think this is going to pay out 1000s a year for 20 30 years index linked ? Do the math !! 

You want a pension for your expat lifestyle go get a private pension or savings plan. 

I think you've missed the point. We know how the UK state pension works out the fact it doesn't work the same for everyone. 

 

At the moment I still get the increase but that could stop if it gets difficult to spend enough time in the UK. I do have s private pension that I haven't taken yet and a property I rent out fortunately. 

[ivor bigun]

i was reading how half the govt workers are working from home and things like passports are months behind ,wonder if the dwp are the same ? will pensiones be running late ,

[jacko45k]

10 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

i was reading how half the govt workers are working from home and things like passports are months behind ,wonder if the dwp are the same ? will pensiones be running late ,

My application was processed okay last year, just get it to them a month before due. 

[Liverpool Lou]

On 5/5/2022 at 3:19 PM, sandyf said:

On 5/5/2022 at 11:10 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

The countries that have the agreements are specific, selected by the governments specifically, they are not chosen at random!

As I said you must have seen the plan so you can tell us how they were specifically selected.

Every chance that some minister at the time had some personal connection with one of the countries.

"...you must have seen the plan so you can tell us how they were specifically selected".

You have no reason to assume that I saw the plan 70 years ago and, no, I may, or may not, have the governments explanation for their choices but I do not need to know that, nor explain it to you.  It is, however, plainly ridiculous for you to claim that the countries were "selected at random", which is what you posted .

 

"...Every chance that some minister at the time had some personal connection with one of the countries".

I'm sure you have something empirical to back up that accusation of government ministers' corruption in the selection of those countries, yes?    No?...didn't think you had.

[Eff1n2ret]

The European Court of Human Rights judgement to which the UK Government continues to cling as justification for its policy is here:-

CARSON AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM (coe.int)

Paras 41-48 provide most of the background to why we are stuck where we are. According to Para 49, International Law states the slightly worrying principle that they are not obliged to pay us any pension at all. Paras 81 & 82 give the Government's justification for refusing to budge. It's rather annoying that they say "The result would effectively negate the power to enter into bilateral treaties of this kind" when they've said they aren't going to make any more treaties about pension upratings.

But the sentence which really enrages me is the very last of the document:-

"Finally, while it is true that non-residents do not pay taxes in the United Kingdom, it is equally true that they do not receive the services paid for with those taxes, and, in any case, this could be remedied within the terms of an appropriate uprating formula." - and that is from one of the judges who gave a dissenting judgement in our favour!!! How could they be so ignorant? How could they not know that of all expat groups it is pensioners who are most liable to be caught for income tax? It makes one wonder about the quality of the lawyers representing Ms Carson and others. 

[Kwasaki]

10 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

The European Court of Human Rights judgement to which the UK Government continues to cling as justification for its policy is here:-

CARSON AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM (coe.int)

Paras 41-48 provide most of the background to why we are stuck where we are. According to Para 49, International Law states the slightly worrying principle that they are not obliged to pay us any pension at all. Paras 81 & 82 give the Government's justification for refusing to budge. It's rather annoying that they say "The result would effectively negate the power to enter into bilateral treaties of this kind" when they've said they aren't going to make any more treaties about pension upratings.

But the sentence which really enrages me is the very last of the document:-

"Finally, while it is true that non-residents do not pay taxes in the United Kingdom, it is equally true that they do not receive the services paid for with those taxes, and, in any case, this could be remedied within the terms of an appropriate uprating formula." - and that is from one of the judges who gave a dissenting judgement in our favour!!! How could they be so ignorant? How could they not know that of all expat groups it is pensioners who are most liable to be caught for income tax? It makes one wonder about the quality of the lawyers representing Ms Carson and others. 

If it meant me having to pay tax getting the annal increases I wouldn't mind at all. 

 

I also wonder about the exchange rate you could be liable for tax by an increase in baht to £ rates.

[kickstart]

It will not happen,the government just dose not have the money, the billions borrowed /spent on Covid  with inflation in the UK, cost of living .it is not a vote catcher, pensions increase for UK expats living certain country's will be way down the list of thing to do.

The only way would be to lobby the next government ,but with the mess they will have to clear up ,it will still be a no.

[bert bloggs]

Also all the immigrants coming in and getting put up in luxuary hotels ,like those in the papers today  need the cash,

[sandyf]

On 5/5/2022 at 3:28 PM, Neeranam said:

I think I will move there when I retire, 6 months a year anyway. Will I still get the increases?

Probably, but not yet set in stone.

The reciprocal agreement that was in place with the EU came to an end with brexit. The UK government then made a special arrangement so the pensioners in the EU could continue to get the increases until a new reciprocal agreement could be drawn up with the EU.

If I remember right the special arrangement was for 3 years but every chance they will just keep extending it until any new agreement is in place.

Highlights the discrimination when the government goes out of it's way to protect one group of pensioners over others.

[The Hammer2021]

On 5/2/2022 at 2:04 AM, soi3eddie said:

Nothing will change. How dare we leave the UK for a happier life in Thailand (or elsewhere). We only exist in the eyes of the UK government if they can still tax us. Nobody stuck in the UK would support an increase for those living overseas. 

 

There is a  real envy of we who have left for  a better life.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It is, however, plainly ridiculous for you to claim that the countries were "selected at random", which is what you posted .

If you are going to quote me you need to get it right, otherwise you are posting lies.

At no point did I ever say "selected at random", someone else used the word random and I merely said it would be a good description.

You are perfectly free to dispute whether the description is good or not but little credibility if you have no basis.

By the way the reciprocal agreements were introduced over a period of many years  and not as you put it "the plan 70 years ago".

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

 

"...Every chance that some minister at the time had some personal connection with one of the countries".

I'm sure you have something empirical to back up that accusation of government ministers' corruption in the selection of those countries, yes?    No?...didn't think you had.

Take it you had some difficulty with the first 2 words "...Every chance"

Bit deluded to think that ministers will not influence a decision in their favour. We only know about the ones that get found out.

[baboon]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:50 AM, jacko45k said:

I keep putting  forward the theory that by keeping us out of the UK, we are far less of a burden on the welfare state, by not availing ourselves of National Health Service, further benefits, and maybe the winter heating allowance! Hence giving the rises up makes sense......

Mind you, not a popular headline in The Mail, 'UK Pensioners given rises of 100 pounds a week to spend on Thailand's ladies of the night'!

....in crack dens. Don't forget the crack dens. And flat screen TVs as though there is any other type of TV available....

[Bandersnatch]

Sign the Petition:

 

Give U.K. pensioners living abroad increases with parity as those in the U.K.

 

British Government is more likely to respond to a petitions than this thread

[baboon]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:59 AM, bert bloggs said:

To those who say its fraud to claim ,please show where any pensioner has been prosecuted ,i could not find any 

Hey, if it is OK for our Prime Minister to lie and cheat, it's OK for the rest of us.

[bert bloggs]

2 minutes ago, baboon said:

Hey, if it is OK for our Prime Minister to lie and cheat, it's OK for the rest of us.

Yeb and the leader of the labour party and that Angela Rainer ,lying toerags

[baboon]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:43 PM, LivinLOS said:

It sure may be... But then independently pay for it.. 'The state' obligations should end when you leave the state.. 

As I have already shown, governments run deficits, the money paid at time of contribution is not enough to meet current expenditure at time of collection.. All this 'I paid in' yeah you also got the government outlay at the time.. Everything else is just spin on collections. 

I expect zero from the government of my passport, I wont be dissapointed to get it. 

Bit pointless having a government, that being the case. They might as well outsource themselves to an Indian IT firm...

[baboon]

1 hour ago, bert bloggs said:

Yeb and the leader of the labour party and that Angela Rainer ,lying toerags

'Your honour, my client may well be guilty of murder. But what about Hitler? What about Pol Pot? What about Joseph Mobutu? How come my client is in this court and not them?'

[Neeranam]

23 hours ago, sandyf said:

Probably, but not yet set in stone.

The reciprocal agreement that was in place with the EU came to an end with brexit. The UK government then made a special arrangement so the pensioners in the EU could continue to get the increases until a new reciprocal agreement could be drawn up with the EU.

If I remember right the special arrangement was for 3 years but every chance they will just keep extending it until any new agreement is in place.

Highlights the discrimination when the government goes out of it's way to protect one group of pensioners over others.

I think it's fair to have a reciprocal agreement. However, how many Thais retire to the UK?

Many Brits retire here because it is so much cheaper than the UK to live; personally, I can't see why some are so upset, but do agree that the pension should not matter where you live. I suppose we don't pay tax when we live here.

[Mac Mickmanus]

16 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I think it's fair to have a reciprocal agreement. However, how many Thais retire to the UK?

Many Brits retire here because it is so much cheaper than the UK to live; personally, I can't see why some are so upset, but do agree that the pension should not matter where you live. I suppose we don't pay tax when we live here.

British people living in Thailand are required to pay tax in the U.K (on UK earnings over 12 000)

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

British people living in Thailand are required to pay tax in the U.K (on UK earnings over 12 000)

Really? News to me. 

 

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Really? News to me. 

 

 

 

 

Have you been filling in your U.K tax returns ?

Huge fines if you havent been doing that