British biker, 83, is killed in a horror crash in Thailand after car pulls out in front of him

[Dellboy218]

45 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

First, you quote have great relevance to the post you quoted. After that, I have always related the talk about maximum sped to the person driving or speeding. Tell what it is you are trying to say.

If I could understand that gibberish I might be able to give a better reply.  You started off with racing bike and a racing helmet.  What by the way is a racing helmet?  If a helmet is suitable for racing then it will be a high spec and not a 50B Tesco special.  You then try and quote the bikes top speed.  I merely point out that has no relevance.  Only the speed and manner of its being driven/ridden has any bearing.  Apparently both car and bike were fitted with cameras  (as are mine) so perhaps it would be wise to see if any footage comes to light before trying to fit any of it around your agenda.  The only video currently available is not clear enough except yo show the bike was traveling at a sensible speed.

[Lemsta69]

29 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

If someone has obtained their driving licence or motorcycle licence from their home country it is likely they have undergone more extensive education, training and testing...

.... that doesn’t automatically make them better riders than all Thai’s.... but in aggregate the standards of road use and approach towards safety will be higher.... 

 

Perhaps that’s just bias (as you allude to Liverpool) and there is no difference...    but I don’t think so. 

 

"I've never seen a competent farang motorist in Thailand therefore they don't exist." I'm getting the hang of this thaivisa thingy eh? ????

 

srsly I'm clever enough to know that not all farang here are useless drivers but since I tend to hang around tourist areas like Pattaya and Koh Samui that's all I tend to see. so it's a case of once bitten twice shy. definitely a lot of bias in me.

 

btw I'm from Sydney. Australia that is. so I'm even more biased against people who get their licenses overseas. Sydney drivers are taught to drive according to the rules and not the conditions.

 

so if you decide you want to say overtake a slow vehicle and you have to cross double white lines* and there's a vehicle coming in the opposite direction then the car your trying to overtake will speed up and the incoming vehicle will take no evasive action but will pile on in at the speed limit because "that car shouldn't be crossing the centre lane, it's against the law, so I'm going to honk and flash my lights and abracadabra the magic law will make him pull back into his lane!"

 

*in Sydney that means no overtaking 

 

or if you have a spoed demon up your arze, most Sydneysiders won't yield because "I have the right to drive at the speed limit and that hoon is BREAKING THE LAW!!! I'll show him who's boss" as opposed to just moving out of the way and avoiding an incident when the hoon gets riled up and does something really stupid. 

 

like I said earlier, that's the kind of attitude I've seen with farang drivers here. "you're walking in the middle of the road which is against the law so I'm going to teach you a lesson by maintaining my speed getting really close to you because I hold a foreign license and in better than the Thais" ????

[Excel]

1 minute ago, Lemsta69 said:

"I've never seen a competent farang motorist in Thailand therefore they don't exist." I'm getting the hang of this thaivisa thingy eh? ????

 

srsly I'm clever enough to know that not all farang here are useless drivers but since I tend to hang around tourist areas like Pattaya and Koh Samui that's all I tend to see. so it's a case of once bitten twice shy. definitely a lot of bias in me.

 

btw I'm from Sydney. Australia that is. so I'm even more biased against people who get their licenses overseas. Sydney drivers are taught to drive according to the rules and not the conditions.

 

so if you decide you want to say overtake a slow vehicle and you have to cross double white lines* and there's a vehicle coming in the opposite direction then the car your trying to overtake will speed up and the incoming vehicle will take no evasive action but will pile on in at the speed limit because "that car shouldn't be crossing the centre lane, it's against the law, so I'm going to honk and flash my lights and abracadabra the magic law will make him pull back into his lane!"

 

*in Sydney that means no overtaking 

 

or if you have a spoed demon up your arze, most Sydneysiders won't yield because "I have the right to drive at the speed limit and that hoon is BREAKING THE LAW!!! I'll show him who's boss" as opposed to just moving out of the way and avoiding an incident when the hoon gets riled up and does something really stupid. 

 

like I said earlier, that's the kind of attitude I've seen with farang drivers here. "you're walking in the middle of the road which is against the law so I'm going to teach you a lesson by maintaining my speed getting really close to you because I hold a foreign license and in better than the Thais" ????

Think you have pretty much summed up the thinking of many on here.

[Liverpool Lou]

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Almost 6 pages of Thai bashing, assumed,

You were right. And plenty more to come!

Edited June 15, 2022 by Liverpool Lou

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

[clipped]

 

like I said earlier, that's the kind of attitude I've seen with farang drivers here. "you're walking in the middle of the road which is against the law so I'm going to teach you a lesson by maintaining my speed getting really close to you because I hold a foreign license and in better than the Thais" ????

There’s definitely a superior attitude in some foreign drivers here... 

I remember telling a friend... “what are you going to do, teach the whole of Bangkok to drive with your horn ??” 

 

It's just a lot easier to ‘roll with it’....    its also quite easy to predict the unpredictability... i.e. that driver seems to be hesitating... Yup, there he goes, swings a u-turn in the middle of Thonglor!!

 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

42 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It's obviously not a motorway... but the writers at the Daily mail probably lack the knowledge of the different Thai roads.... i.e. Motorway, Tollway, Expressway, Highway etc... 

 

In this case, its clear the incident occurred a 2 (or 3) lane highway.....  

 

... As such any vehicle can use it... and its not a ‘sealed route’ with slip roads, vehicles can enter from farm tracks etc... there is usually, but not always a frontage road with makes things slightly safer when present - but these are more often on inter-provincial highways.... 

I'm obviously well aware of the type of road it was and I'm aware of which vehicles can use it.  I was commenting, cynically, on the wonderful Daily Mail.

[OneeyedJohn]

My bike weighs 130 Kg ( a simple sports bike ), his bike is over 200 Kg plus his body weight 70 - 85 Kg and that impact looks pretty heavy. Has to be doing a minimum of 80 - 120 Kmh.

 

[richard_smith237]

20 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

It's obviously not a motorway... but the writers at the Daily mail probably lack the knowledge of the different Thai roads.... i.e. Motorway, Tollway, Expressway, Highway etc... 

 

In this case, its clear the incident occurred a 2 (or 3) lane highway.....  

 

... As such any vehicle can use it... and its not a ‘sealed route’ with slip roads, vehicles can enter from farm tracks etc... there is usually, but not always a frontage road with makes things slightly safer when present - but these are more often on inter-provincial highways.... 

Expand  

I'm obviously well aware of the type of road it was and I'm aware of which vehicles can use it.  I was commenting, cynically, on the wonderful Daily Mail.

Understood....  my comment was also aimed towards those taking the ‘reports’ at face value and commenting that motorcycles can’t be on the motorway or they have slip roads not side roads.... 

 

... its clear that they ‘hung on to the wording’ rather than look at the photo and vid and see for themselves what type of road the incident occurred on. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, OneeyedJohn said:

My bike weighs 130 Kg ( a simple sports bike ), his bike is over 200 Kg plus his body weight 70 - 85 Kg and that impact looks pretty heavy. Has to be doing a minimum of 80 - 120 Kmh.

 

Impact was not heavy enough to trash the bike, just flip it.

 

Looking the vid it obviously difficult to judge the speed with any degree of accuracy, but it does not look as if the motorcyclist was travelling at excessive speed...   just eyeballing it I reckon he was travelling at closer to 80kmh than 120kmh... But he didn’t seem to take any speed off before impact. 

 

Its not as if he was thrown 30m down the road either... he was launched about 5m onto the CVR...   I don’t see indications of massive speed....  just the fact that someone pulled in front and he didn’t stop. 

 

I’m not even sure his helmet comes off (as some have commented)... I do see something fly up, but I don’t think thats the helmet (the CCTV footage is not that clear). 

 

 

[OneeyedJohn]

I think that was a pannier box.

 

[KhunLA]

Finally watched the vid, and get the impression, a younger man may of easily survived, aside from possibly a few broken bones.  Unless of course you snapped your neck.

 

Car moving forward (slowly), and him slowing considerably, along with going up & over, and falling off to the side from the roof.  No noticeable damage to front tire, as I've actually broke a mag on a pot hole once here.  Wonder what actually caused his demise, possible a rib through something important, if not severe neck injury.

 

R I P

[Eloquent pilgrim]

21 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

Yes, it has, but you are probably British and blindly defend all like a true patriot. 

And you are German and have previously admitted on this very forum to being anti-British, so a puerile comment like this is to be expected from you.

 

You seem to spend most of you life on this forum, maybe you could take a short break and lobby your Government to stop funding Putin’s war in Ukraine with blood money.

 

Germany paid Russia 12 Billion Euros for fossil fuels in the first hundred days of the war, and was Moscow’s largest client for natural gas in that period ….. thanks Mutti

[Gottfrid]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'd agree...  IF there were an investigation carried out to the levels of professionalism we would expect of an accident investigation in some of our home nations. 

 

In this case I very much doubt any investigation is going to be more than...  paint the outline and assign blame.

 

 

 

As you see, you already dismiss the investigation before the result. Exactly as I said it would be. Seems to me, that people here only like to live in Thailand and say everything is wrong. Whatever they do, that does nor fit each individuals agenda. I am just surprised that so many can stand it, instead of picking up sticks and moving to a place they don´t have to complain so much over.

[Gottfrid]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

And you are German and have previously admitted on this very forum to being anti-British, so a puerile comment like this is to be expected from you.

 

You seem to spend most of you life on this forum, maybe you could take a short break and lobby your Government to stop funding Putin’s war in Ukraine with blood money.

 

Germany paid Russia 12 Billion Euros for fossil fuels in the first hundred days of the war, and was Moscow’s largest client for natural gas in that period ….. thanks Mutti

I am German? What do you get that from? Gottfrid is a Swedish name. Gottfried is a German name. You better sharpen up your knowledge before you assume totally weird and inaccurate things. 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, pattayahenry said:

I have seen video many times, the motorbike did nothing to avoid the crash, not swerve, not brake, and far to fast for a crossroad, 

If a car comes from the sideroad, overtaking is not allowed, he must stay behind the white car

Not sure what else you could have got wrong to be honest. “crossroad” there was no crossroad, it is a main road / highway, with a central reservation (partition)

How can he have been going “far to (sic) fast for a crossroad” when there is not a crossroad, and you have no idea what speed he was travelling at.

She exited the side road, and instead of turning into the inside lane, checking her mirror, signalling, and moving into the outside lane, when safe to do so, she pointed her car straight across the road into the fast lane (probably because she wanted to make a U-turn at the relatively close U-turn place ahead)

She was absolutely reckless, is 100% to blame, and you're trying to blame the victim …….. jeez

[richard_smith237]

23 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

As you see, you already dismiss the investigation before the result.

Do you really believe any serious investigation will be carried out ? especially when there is a video of what happened ? - if so, you’re rather naive. 

 

23 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

Exactly as I said it would be. Seems to me, that people here only like to live in Thailand and say everything is wrong.

It seems so to you because you are unable to assimilate a simple balanced comment, instead you make a dumbed down firmly biased interpretation of that comment and twist it. 

Not one poster on here says ‘everything is wrong’ or has a problem with everything.... some have made observations which are negative, some are positive... thats the nature of observations everywhere, not everything is amazing !

 

You have cherry picked other peoples comments and observations and pigeon-holed them into a Thai-bash.... thats rather childish and flawed virtue signalling.... 

 

23 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

Whatever they do, that does nor fit each individuals agenda. I am just surprised that so many can stand it, instead of picking up sticks and moving to a place they don´t have to complain so much over.

No agenda... just balanced observations....   you can’t see this because you have some odd bias against the British and against any comments which do not blame the British rider. 

 

 

One of the things which interests me on this forum is the range of opinions, but primary how someone can be so significantly out of whack a balanced reality. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by richard_smith237

[Gottfrid]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Do you really believe any serious investigation will be carried out ? especially when there is a video of what happened ? - if so, you’re rather naive. 

 

It seems so to you because you are unable to assimilate a simple balanced comment, instead you make a dumbed down firmly biased interpretation of that comment and twist it. 

Not one poster on here says ‘everything is wrong’ or has a problem with everything.... some have made observations which are negative, some are positive... thats the nature of observations everywhere, not everything is amazing !

 

You have cherry picked other peoples comments and observations and pigeon-holed them into a Thai-bash.... thats rather childish and flawed virtue signalling.... 

 

No agenda... just balanced observations....   you can’t see this because you have some odd bias against the British and against any comments which do not blame the British rider. 

 

 

One of the things which interests me on this forum is the range of opinions, but primary how someone can be so significantly out of whack a balanced reality. 

 

 

 

 

 

And all that you just posted excuses.

[Rimmer]

An off topic troll post has been removed

[flare]

When pulling out onto a road from a side-street, drivers generally don't show as much respect to bikes as they do to other cars- that's true of the world, not just Thailand.  When I see someone getting ready to make a move in front of me (also the case with cars waiting to make U-turns) I assume they're going to do something stupid and I'm ready to take evasive action.  I consider myself 'invisible' when I ride, and act accordingly.

 

It seemed to me that the rider reacted late or not at all.  That's not to say it was his fault, but, from my armchair (and with 30+ years riding in Asia) it looked avoidable.  Reaction times slow as we age- he was in his eighties...

[LomSak27]

On 6/14/2022 at 4:42 PM, transam said:

Then I read it differently to you...The SUV was already pulling out of the turn before the bike turns up, the bike was travelling at speed and I saw no evasive action from the bike, perhaps the rider was confused as to what to do for that split second, but his speed was against him... 

Yes we read it differently. The car turns onto a highway. Instead of turning into the outer, slower lane, they cross that lane and turn into the far right lane, the fast, passing or overtaking lane. There are TWO lanes on this road. They complete their turn, SLOW, at a waddle. This is the reason the SUV has been found at fault.

The Forums CSI unit mention a person who rear ends  in the USA, (a different country BTW) are at fault. NOT if a vehicle was turning onto a highway. You join a highway on the outer, slower lane, then merge over when have picked up speed and  moving with other traffic. Or ... 

 

"Generally speaking, when one car is attempting to enter a roadway, it is that driver's responsibility to enter safely. If the merging driver hits another car, the merging driver is liable for any injuries or damage sustained in the crash"

 

[actonion]

On 6/15/2022 at 7:47 AM, KhunLA said:

I've never seen a Thai do that ...

... in the Americas, as the only other countries I've ever driving in.

 

I've only noticed Americans, inclusive, of driving, sometimes, not as others wished they did.  Who hasn't driven, and pulled out in front of someone, and thought to themselves ... "oops, sorry"

 

Almost 6 pages of Thai bashing, assumed, when nobody knows exactly what happen.  I just want to know, how the scooter landed upside down.  Now that is quite the feat.

 

DISCLAIMER:  did not read all 6 pages, as first 10 comments were enough to set the stage.

 

R I P

You've "never" seen a Thai do that?, then i suggest you get out more .... as for Thai bashing,   the lack of respect  Thai people  have for other road users, and  the highway code in general, they deserve all the bashing they receive..

Edited June 16, 2022 by actonion

[Gandtee]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:03 PM, richard_smith237 said:

I don’t think he meant that.... 

 

She may have had such a brain-fart that she thought she was pulling out onto a two lane road, straight into the right most lane thinking she was pulling into the correct direct / lane of that two lane road. 

 

Its a stupid but innocent mistake that many make.... I’ve momentarily done it (driving on an empty road Spain at 20 years old)...  a US Diplomats Wife (Anne Sacoolas) did it in London...  and on this forum there was a recent news story of a foreigner doing the same...  sadly its easily done.

 

https://thainewsroom.com/2022/05/27/foreign-tourist-seen-driving-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-road-in-chiang-mai/

Bearing in mind they drive on the right in China. It looks like she may have pulled out straight into the fast outside lane thinking it was the slow lane. Not realising it was dual carriageway. But whatever. Looking at the video, she didn't stop before pulling out. Maybe just a cursory look?????

[transam]

1 hour ago, LomSak27 said:

Yes we read it differently. The car turns onto a highway. Instead of turning into the outer, slower lane, they cross that lane and turn into the far right lane, the fast, passing or overtaking lane. There are TWO lanes on this road. They complete their turn, SLOW, at a waddle. This is the reason the SUV has been found at fault.

The Forums CSI unit mention a person who rear ends  in the USA, (a different country BTW) are at fault. NOT if a vehicle was turning onto a highway. You join a highway on the outer, slower lane, then merge over when have picked up speed and  moving with other traffic. Or ... 

 

"Generally speaking, when one car is attempting to enter a roadway, it is that driver's responsibility to enter safely. If the merging driver hits another car, the merging driver is liable for any injuries or damage sustained in the crash"

 

You forgot to mention the speed of the bike, with no sign of making any move to slow down. I do not see the front forks dropping hard with breaking, perhaps the guy thought he could sail round the problem.

 

As an ex professional driver (and a bike rider), I was taught to read the road ahead at all times, plus, if you do hit the rear of a vehicle you are in the wrong unless it can be proved otherwise, so, we go back too, read the road ahead.... 

 

The SUV was already on the main road before the bike appeared, anyone coming down that road would have seen the SUV, did he read the road ahead. ????

[Excel]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

As an ex professional driver

And all of us from the UK now exactly how "white Van" drivers drive ????

[Gandtee]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:36 PM, soi3eddie said:

As a biker in Thailand, cars are your second worst danger after trucks. 

 

My pal, a pedestrian. Got hit by a truck running a red light in Bangkok this week. Fortunately just scrapes and bruises.

[Excel]

19 minutes ago, Gandtee said:

My pal, a pedestrian. Got hit by a truck running a red light in Bangkok this week. Fortunately just scrapes and bruises.

How was the truck ? 

[transam]

33 minutes ago, Excel said:

And all of us from the UK now exactly how "white Van" drivers drive ????

Hmmm, no, HGV......Carry on......????

[Gandtee]

1 hour ago, Excel said:

How was the truck ? 

Off fendered.????

[KhaoYai]

On 6/14/2022 at 5:44 PM, sawadee1947 said:

Well, no doubt about it that it's very risky here riding a bike.

So If you take the risk here you face death every minute.

Not surprising If someone bite the dust though it's very sad.

But again, it's up to you......drive a solid car and survive or riding a bike and risk your life.

Sorry but that's simply not true.  I accept that you are more vulnerable on a bike should an accident happen but people with proper training and/or experience, know how to deal with that and ride accordingly.  There are far more accidents on motorbikes than there are in Thailand but   99.999% of them involve Thai nationals and are on small bikes or scooters - have you seen the way they ride? I think it would be a fair guess that the vast mjority of them never have any training and probably wouldn't take it seriously if they did.

 

So I think the statistics are highly skewed - in the vast majority of cases its stupidity that causes the accidents not simply motobikes. Look at the recent cases of serious accidents involving motorbikes hitting people on pedestrian crossings - are they caused by the bike or the stupidity of the rider?  One of the things that never fails to amaze me in Thailand is bikes pulling out of side roads without even looking - its as if their head is attached to the handlebars with some form of bracket that keeps it looking straight forward. My basic survival instinct wouldn't let me pull out without looking - I just can't undertstand it but it happens thousands of times every day.

 

There are people killed in cars and trucks in Thailand every day - they don't guarantee survival and as I say, the figures that seem illustrate that far more motorcyclists are killed are skewed by the stupidity of the riders.  Yes, they happen but do they need to?

[sawadee1947]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Sorry but that's simply not true.  I accept that you are more vulnerable on a bike should an accident happen but people with proper training and/or experience, know how to deal with that and ride accordingly.  There are far more accidents on motorbikes than there are in Thailand but   99.999% of them involve Thai nationals and are on small bikes or scooters - have you seen the way they ride? I think it would be a fair guess that the vast mjority of them never have any training and probably wouldn't take it seriously if they did.

 

So I think the statistics are highly skewed - in the vast majority of cases its stupidity that causes the accidents not simply motobikes. Look at the recent cases of serious accidents involving motorbikes hitting people on pedestrian crossings - are they caused by the bike or the stupidity of the rider?  One of the things that never fails to amaze me in Thailand is bikes pulling out of side roads without even looking - its as if their head is attached to the handlebars with some form of bracket that keeps it looking straight forward. My basic survival instinct wouldn't let me pull out without looking - I just can't undertstand it but it happens thousands of times every day.

 

There are people killed in cars and trucks in Thailand every day - they don't guarantee survival and as I say, the figures that seem illustrate that far more motorcyclists are killed are skewed by the stupidity of the riders.  Yes, they happen but do they need to?

Living in s civilized country I would agree with you.

However, here you are surrounded by mass idiocy, at least on roads.

So riding a bike here is risking your life.