Road Accidents Report 13 June 2022

[anchadian]

Another five children died in road accidents yesterday. When will the Thai government take this problem as seriously as they did with Covid19? Thailand is in the Top 5 of the most dangerous roads in the world. It is high time they tackled this issue seriously.

 

https://twitter.com/ThaiNewsReports/status/1536505924197974017

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by anchadian

[Kwasaki]

Not bad considering there's no strict training like there is in UK and still have road accidents.

[thwo]

wow, what a news !

 

[PFMills]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:37 AM, Kwasaki said:

Not bad considering there's no strict training like there is in UK and still have road accidents.

Yes, but UK road deaths are on a daily average at least .1000% less than here.

 

https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/uk-road-safety

Edited June 16, 2022 by PFMills

[Road Warrior]

it will never happen ,thai driving standards are unbelievable but will never change !!!!

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, PFMills said:

Yes, but UK road deaths are on a daily average at least .1000% less than here.

 

https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/uk-road-safety

That's why new laws are required to control who drives and rides on the road. 

Laws are are unpopular in Thailand the people prefer to take care of themselves.

[Thunglom]

Firstly, it is a could sign that Tha RSC are ompliling statistics. Thailand needs proper, scientific collection and collation of data. This is needed before any action can be successful

 

Many countries used to have similar road safety stats as Thailand and by adopting the Safe System, have dramatically reduced death an injury and in fact some are heading towards ZERO deaths..

 

This means the authorities (and a large number of commentators of TV) have to drop the "blame game" - Trying to say that "Thais are bad drivers" is rubbish and shows a complete lack of understanding of road safety and the cues of Thailand's appalling road statistics.

 

human error is a constant all over the world - the difference is how authorities design the role road environment to protect road users..

 

It's not down to any inherent characteristic in Thai people  - it is down to a succession of ignorant authorities refusing to act on the advice they have been receiving for 3 decades.

[Yellowtail]

85% of deaths are motorcycles, which leaves only 15% from all other vehicles. I think it safe to assume many of those were riding in the back of pickups.  

 

Why not just ban motorcycles and riding in the back of pickups? 

[Kwasaki]

7 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Firstly, it is a could sign that Tha RSC are ompliling statistics. Thailand needs proper, scientific collection and collation of data. This is needed before any action can be successful

 

Many countries used to have similar road safety stats as Thailand and by adopting the Safe System, have dramatically reduced death an injury and in fact some are heading towards ZERO deaths..

 

This means the authorities (and a large number of commentators of TV) have to drop the "blame game" - Trying to say that "Thais are bad drivers" is rubbish and shows a complete lack of understanding of road safety and the cues of Thailand's appalling road statistics.

 

human error is a constant all over the world - the difference is how authorities design the role road environment to protect road users..

 

It's not down to any inherent characteristic in Thai people  - it is down to a succession of ignorant authorities refusing to act on the advice they have been receiving for 3 decades.

Fair call but 85% motorcyclists that's conclusive enough for a start, I would like big bikes separated from that percentage.

 

There were foreigners killed. 

 

The fact is a majority of Thai drivers are not road trained to a reasonable standard. 

 

Can't blame roads only road users no matter what advice from others is. 

 

[Kwasaki]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

85% of deaths are motorcycles, which leaves only 15% from all other vehicles. I think it safe to assume many of those were riding in the back of pickups.  

 

Why not just ban motorcycles and riding in the back of pickups? 

How are the kids going to get to school. 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Fair call but 85% motorcyclists that's conclusive enough for a start, I would like big bikes separated from that percentage.

 

There were foreigners killed. 

 

The fact is a majority of Thai drivers are not road trained to a reasonable standard. 

 

Can't blame roads only road users no matter what advice from others is. 

 

Apparently a disproportionate number (>11%) of deaths were foreigners, so why do we always blame Thai driving. 

 

Why would you break out big-bikes, and how would you define them? I imagine the number of big-bike deaths would be disproportionally high as well. 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

How are the kids going to get to school. 

I know, it's ridiculous. Rich westerners can afford and will promote a lot of things poor Thais cannot. 

[Kwasaki]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Apparently a disproportionate number (>11%) of deaths were foreigners, so why do we always blame Thai driving. 

 

Why would you break out big-bikes, and how would you define them? I imagine the number of big-bike deaths would be disproportionally high as well. 

Well I have got to know what Thai drivers do in some situations and some are bad. 

 

I would like bikes over 600 cc separated because I would say big bike riders are usually more skilled than small motorbike, scoots, Wave type and  big scoots.

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Well I have got to know what Thai drivers do in some situations and some are bad. 

I would agree that Thai drivers on average, are not as competent as western drivers, but we (at least in the US) grow up driving, and almost everyone drives.

 

6 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I would like bikes over 600 cc separated because I would say big bike riders are usually more skilled than small motorbike, scoots, Wave type and  big scoots.

This is like saying that someone driving an S500 is likely more skilled than someone driving an Altis, but even if it's true, it has to assume that the motorcyclists died because of their lack of skill. 

 

Also, I think it much more likely that someone riding a 600 is more likely to (often) be going much faster than someone on a wave. 

 

Going down at 50 is a bummer, going down at 140 is a nightmare. 

 

I will stand by my bet that a disproportionate number of bike motorcycle death are bikes 250cc or over.  

[Kwasaki]

21 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I will stand by my bet that a disproportionate number of bike motorcycle death are bikes 250cc or over.  

That is why I see 600cc a good cut off in the statistics, you have big scoots now in the mix and 2 off them went down recently in our area. 

 

Laws on age and cc deplacement would have to be inforced which is not what Thais like. 

Even 100cc for 15 years old is not taken any notice of. 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Kwasaki

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

That is why I see 600cc a good cut off in the statistics, you have big scoots now in the mix and 2 off them went down recently in our area. 

Is this because the riders were so highly skilled? 

 

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Laws on age and cc deplacement would have to be inforced which is not what Thais like. 

Even 100cc for 15 years old is not taken any notice of. 

What do you base your claim that Thais do not want these laws enforced on? 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is this because the riders were so highly skilled? 

 

What do you base your claim that Thais do not want these laws enforced on? 

 

Firstly I find bigger bike riders on 600cc and above reasonably responsible, more so than smaller machine riders is what I observe.

 

Secondly my claim is I see kids three and four up, no helmets going to school no matter whether the rider is 15 years old or younger. 

I would just like to see a bit more inforcement for kids thats all I think that is a reasonable concern of mine. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

42 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Firstly I find bigger bike riders on 600cc and above reasonably responsible, more so than smaller machine riders is what I observe.

Yet you claimed two of them crashed in your area, why is that?

 

I will agree that on average, older people are generally more responsible than younger people, and that the average age of people that own bikes 600cc and about is higher than the average age of people that ride Waves, but that does not have anything to do with what we have been talking about. 

 

Big bikes typically go much faster than small bikes, and I would bet speed is the single greatest determinant in motorcycle fatalities.   

 

I think a 50 year old Bangkok motorcycle taxi operator on a 125 is about as skilled a rider as one could find. 

 

42 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Secondly my claim is I see kids three and four up, no helmets going to school no matter whether the rider is 15 years old or younger. 

No, your claim was that Thais do not want these laws enforced. I asked you what you based you claim on, and you ignored it completely.

 

42 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I would just like to see a bit more inforcement for kids thats all I think that is a reasonable concern of mine. 

I would like to see this as well, as would I bet 95% of Thai parents, which is why I think your claim is baseless. 

 

That the law is not enforced, does not mean the people do not want the laws enforced. 

 

[Thunglom]

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

The fact is a majority of Thai drivers are not road trained to a reasonable standard. 

This is only one part of a complex future - it suggests to me that you are barking up the wrong tree - that of "bad driving"

Edited June 19, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

*%5bis probably not an accurate figure - over the years it seems to pan out at 73%. 

however VULNERABLE road users can certainly claim over 80%.

 

Unfortunately no=one appears to be asking WHY

 

Thy are not concerned with causation and are mislead by correlation.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yet you claimed two of them crashed in your area, why is that?

 

I will agree that on average, older people are generally more responsible than younger people, and that the average age of people that own bikes 600cc and about is higher than the average age of people that ride Waves, but that does not have anything to do with what we have been talking about. 

 

Big bikes typically go much faster than small bikes, and I would bet speed is the single greatest determinant in motorcycle fatalities.   

 

I think a 50 year old Bangkok motorcycle taxi operator on a 125 is about as skilled a rider as one could find. 

 

No, your claim was that Thais do not want these laws enforced. I asked you what you based you claim on, and you ignored it completely.

 

I would like to see this as well, as would I bet 95% of Thai parents, which is why I think your claim is baseless. 

 

That the law is not enforced, does not mean the people do not want the laws enforced. 

 

Don't know if you're a motorbike rider I can't the words to make you understand, just like big scoots are 350cc it so they are scoots not big motorbike in terms. 

 

As far as accidents go a wave or scoot and someone that rides a big motorbike age comes very much into the fact. 

 

As for big motorbike speed that can keep you safer and again if you are not a big motorbike riders you won't understand.

 

To ride a Wave in Bangkok does take experience to stay alive I agree. 

 

I thought it was something simple enough to work out for yourself that is, kids go off to school on Waves and scoots because it's convenient for parents to let them so to inforcement laws would be unpopular.

 

Disagree with your logic and what I think and what will be done is something I can do nothing about. 

 

I'm going on my bike now and more than lightly will break the speed limit in 1st, get to where I go have a couple of beers and come home again as I have done in UK and now in Thailand since I was 14 yr old,  have a nice day. 

 

[Tropicalevo]

12 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Thailand needs proper, scientific collection and collation of data.

But the road death statistics are not accurate.

They are grossly understated.

It is only a 'road death' if the person dies at the road side.

people who die in the ambulance, or at the hospital or even at home are not counted in the numbers.

Many groups in Thailand believe that the real number is up to 50% higher.

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, Tropicalevo said:

But the road death statistics are not accurate.

They are grossly understated.

It is only a 'road death' if the person dies at the road side.

people who die in the ambulance, or at the hospital or even at home are not counted in the numbers.

Many groups in Thailand believe that the real number is up to 50% higher.

Rubbish! You have no evidence to support the first assumption

secondly "It is only a 'road death' if the person dies at the road side." - is simply not true. I suspect you have no idea who gathers statistics or or how it is done.

"Many groups in Thailand believe that the real number is up to 50% higher." - really - which "groups" are these.

 

This is typical of the ignorance and nonsense talked about road safety in Thailand.

both the public and those in charge simply have o idea, yet there are several organisations, both national and international, that are taking abscientiic approach to road safety yet they are completely ignored.

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Thunglom

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Don't know if you're a motorbike rider I can't the words to make you understand, just like big scoots are 350cc it so they are scoots not big motorbike in terms. 

I have had a few bikes, and while I would not consider it a "big bike", I think it safe to say a 350cc is generally much faster than a 100cc bike, and much more likely to driven as a road bike than Wave would be. 

 

That said, I would not consider a 600 a big bike either. 

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

As far as accidents go a wave or scoot and someone that rides a big motorbike age comes very much into the fact. 

Isn't that what I said? 

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

As for big motorbike speed that can keep you safer and again if you are not a big motorbike riders you won't understand.

I understand how more power CAN keep you safer, do you not understand how much easier it is to die at 140 than at 60? 

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

To ride a Wave in Bangkok does take experience to stay alive I agree. 

I did not say that. 

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I thought it was something simple enough to work out for yourself that is, kids go off to school on Waves and scoots because it's convenient for parents to let them so to inforcement laws would be unpopular.

Where do you come from that the kids going to school only drive as their parents allow? Most kids don't ride to school, so claiming Thais don't want the laws enforced because you see people breaking the law is ridiculous. 

 

But yes, you are right. Enforcing the law would not be popular with the people breaking the law. 

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Disagree with your logic and what I think and what will be done is something I can do nothing about. 

So explain your logic. 

 

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I'm going on my bike now and more than lightly will break the speed limit in 1st, get to where I go have a couple of beers and come home again as I have done in UK and now in Thailand since I was 14 yr old,  have a nice day. 

You have a nice day as well. 

[Thunglom]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:59 AM, Yellowtail said:

I have had a few bikes, and while I would not consider it a "big bike", I think it safe to say a 350cc is generally much faster than a 100cc bike, and much more likely to driven as a road bike than Wave would be. 

 

That said, I would not consider a 600 a big bike either. 

 

Isn't that what I said? 

 

I understand how more power CAN keep you safer, do you not understand how much easier it is to die at 140 than at 60? 

 

I did not say that. 

 

Where do you come from that the kids going to school only drive as their parents allow? Most kids don't ride to school, so claiming Thais don't want the laws enforced because you see people breaking the law is ridiculous. 

 

But yes, you are right. Enforcing the law would not be popular with the people breaking the law. 

 

So explain your logic. 

 

You have a nice day as well. 

poor old Kwasaki doesn't know the first thing doubt road safety and thinks it's about "good or bad driving" -He subscribes to myths about "big bikes" that are totally unsupported by the star in any country and fails to understand te difference between human error and bad driving.

basically he grossly underestimates his own risk, and actually increases it by his lack of understanding of the reality.

[VocalNeal]

^ Oh and you are an expert I suppose?

Human error not the same as bad driving???? May not be exactly the same but are linked. 

Generally people don't die because they hit something. They usually die because some other clown hits them.

 

I'll get my hat!

[Kwasaki]

22 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

poor old Kwasaki doesn't know the first thing doubt road safety and thinks it's about "good or bad driving" -He subscribes to myths about "big bikes" that are totally unsupported by the star in any country and fails to understand te difference between human error and bad driving.

basically he grossly underestimates his own risk, and actually increases it by his lack of understanding of the reality.

Raced and taught people on motorbikes not silly little or now big scoots. 

Rode with the police in UK as a advance motorbike instucter,  what you know about me ain't worth knowing you insulting pillock.

[Thunglom]

49 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Raced and taught people on motorbikes not silly little or now big scoots. 

Rode with the police in UK as a advance motorbike instucter,  what you know about me ain't worth knowing you insulting pillock.

What we have here is the logical fallacy of appeal to authority

insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered.  - According to person 1, who is an expert on the issue of Y, Y is true. Therefore, Y is true.

In fact, as it is about road safety, it’s even an appeal to false authority – e,g, - according to person 1 (who offers little or no expertise on Y being true), Y is true.
Therefore, Y is true.

 

Just the sort of conceited self-aggrandising response I expected with this kind of fallacy. You haven't comprehended a single word I posted and continue to think that "driving and human error are the same. You are a statistic waiting to happen

Edited June 21, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

^ Oh and you are an expert I suppose?

Human error not the same as bad driving???? May not be exactly the same but are linked. 

Generally people don't die because they hit something. They usually die because some other clown hits them.

 

I'll get my hat!

Expert - a reverse fallacious appeal to authority, often used by people to attack the messenger rather than the message. People without any argument seem to believe that they can discredit anyone who says something they don’t agree with or didn’t know, by suggesting they aren’t an “expert” or asking them why they think they are an “expert”. As if any opinion other than an “experts” must automatically be invalid.

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

^ Oh and you are an expert I suppose?

Human error not the same as bad driving???? May not be exactly the same but are linked. 

Generally people don't die because they hit something. They usually die because some other clown hits them.

 

I'll get my hat!

What is “human error”?

Human error is not “bad driving”, it is a normal occurrence. It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories[1].

 

First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the driver was blinded by the glare, or the pedestrian's clothes had low contrast. In other cases, the driver made a perceptual misjudgement (a curve's radius or another car's speed or distance). Or in Thailand, just tinted windows!

 

Second and far more common cause is that the critical information was detectable but that the driver failed to attend/notice because his mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often times, a driver will claim that s/he did not "see" a plainly visible pedestrian or car. This is entirely possible because much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness. - (Mack and Rock, 1998)[2]

 

Third, the driver may correctly process the information but fail to choose the correct response ("I'm skidding, so I'll turn away from the skid") or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out ("I meant to hit the brake, but I hit the gas"). 

 

Thailand has had a lot of advice from road safety organisations both home and abroad, but somehow this advice does not get taken and is overruled by the archaic “we know best” prejudices of successive ill-informed governments who fail to understand the basic concept of “human error” as opposed to “blame”.

 

---

[1] https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/roadaccidents.html

[2] (Mack and Rock (1998) have shown that we can be less likely to perceive an object if we are looking directly at it than if it falls outside the centre of the visual field. This "inattentional blindness" phenomenon is certainly the cause of many RTIs)

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Thunglom