LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

Peterw42 · December 6, 2022

8 minutes ago, Paul3456 said:

In a review on Google maps of the One stop center and the Investment center they stated that men must wear long pants. If they arrive wearing shorts they will not be allowed inside.

Can someone who has received their visa please comment on this? Thanks.

Its often a requirement for lots of Thai government offices, especially places like courts etc. The enforcement can vary, even some immigration offices are pretty strict and will deny entry.

mudcat · December 6, 2022

On 12/3/2022 at 11:35 PM, anotherexpat4444 said:

Q on medical insurance for LTR

Right now outside thailand and some thail insurance company want thailand address and moreover i have insurance in my home country and i dont have plan staying all year in thailand . i will be mostly staying 6 months out of a year .

they need minimum 10 months insurance so do they check if i have once i get approval or i can change it . for the purpose of visa i want to buy safetywing insurance as this can be cancelled anytime

It sounds as if you have health insurance in your home country and have a travel/long-stay policy in mind.

See if you can qualify using your assets to avoid the expense of purchasing a Thai policy or an overseas policy and coordinating policy expiration date 10-months in the future.

aublumberg · December 6, 2022

FYI ... BoI provided three new forms on their website related to further document requests and preliminary approval and employment certificate.

LTR Visa Thailand - Application Forms (boi.go.th)

K2938 · December 6, 2022

LTR application rate slowed down further. Since Sept 1 about 1,600 applications have now been submitted
Americans made the most applications so far, followed by Chinese, British, and Germans

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/visa/thailands-10-year-ltr-visa-most-popular-among-americans-and-chinese

Edited December 6, 2022 by K2938

anotherexpat4444 · December 7, 2022

I called them and the officer was real nice . she told she is going to approve it . and she approved within 30 min and I got an email that they have approved my application and waiting from immigration . so what happens next on this process. do we get a visa stamp / pay money ?

Pib · December 7, 2022

1 hour ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

I called them and the officer was real nice . she told she is going to approve it . and she approved within 30 min and I got an email that they have approved my application and waiting from immigration . so what happens next on this process. do we get a visa stamp / pay money ?

So what changed with your insurance? Did you buy a new policy over the last few days, self insure, etc. Before you were saying your application was hung up due to insurance.

James7 · December 7, 2022

1 hour ago, Pib said:

So what changed with your insurance? Did you buy a new policy over the last few days, self insure, etc. Before you were saying your application was hung up due to insurance.

I was in a similar situation and had to buy the cheapest annual medical insurance in Thailand (Pacific Cross for about 18k thb)..

I just got my stamp in my passport today ????

Edited December 7, 2022 by James7

anotherexpat4444 · December 7, 2022

2 hours ago, Pib said:

So what changed with your insurance? Did you buy a new policy over the last few days, self insure, etc. Before you were saying your application was hung up due to insurance.

I sent them my 401 k details before 3 week . so I called them thinking give it a last try to see if i can get any alternative choice with my 401 k . and the officer was so nice she immediately look into the past emails and told that she will check it and work on approving my application .

aublumberg · December 7, 2022

59 minutes ago, James7 said:

I just got my stamp in my passport today ????

Congratulations!

oldcpu · December 7, 2022

On 11/2/2022 at 4:56 PM, Mike Teavee said:

I haven't seen it confirmed one way or the other but my understanding was that any investment needed would have to be new money brought into Thailand so your existing investment in a Condo wouldn't count.

The same day you posted this I filled in the BOI website contact asking if I could use property (a condominium unit) purchased in 2016 in Thailand, to qualify for the $250K investment for a wealthy pensioner (whose pension income exceeded $40K US$ but less than $80K US$). I received no answer to my website (fill in the form) query..

So today (at my Thai wife's urging) I called the BOI contact number, and after less than a 10-minute wait I was able to speak to a BOI representative.

They advised me the 2016 real estate purchase of a condominium unit qualified as part (or all) of the $250K investment requirement.

... Of course the "proof is in the pudding" so I won't know until I actually apply, but this was definitely relevant to myself.

...

A further tidbit, my condo was purchased for MORE than $250K US$ equivalent in total (but less than $500K US$ equivalent). I was advised I could only use 50% of the value as my investment because the property is in both my name, and my Thai wife's name. I expected this.

My Thai wife was not so happy about this.

So during the chat with the BOI representative, my wife grabbed the phone, and asked if the property was changed to only being in my name (ie she removed her name), could I then claim the full value of the property as an investment in Thailand?

The answer was 'YES' but with qualifications. The qualifications (according to my wife, as the talk was in Thai and I don't speak Thai):

* if using 50% of the condo value (with condo in both my name and my wife's name), the proof would be the "deed" and the original "purchase to sale" agreement

* if using 100% of the condo value when name changed to ONLY my name after the purchase, then the proof would be the "deed" and also the condo unit investment value as recorded on the Land Office books (which is typically MUCH less than the property sale value). My wife and I happen to know the value on the Land Office books, and that fortunately greatly exceeds the $250K US$ equivalent, so my wife is now thinking to remove her name off of this specific property for this (and also for another unrelated reasons).

We also asked if a mix of 50% of the 2016 condo value + new Thai government bonds, to exceed the $250K US$ equivalent would suffice, and we were told yes - we may not go that route thou, if my wife legally removes her name from the condo unit property.

We also asked (for the >$40K income proof) if pension coming from multiple sources (pensions from 3 different organisations to exceed the $40K US$ equivalent) would suffice, and we were advised yes (where proof of the pensions would be needed).

...

And another unrelated tidbit - we were told that we could also buy shares in a Thai company, or buy Thai mutual funds, to qualify as part or all of the $250K US$ equivalent. We were thou cautioned, that one MUST have owned the shares in the Thai company for greater than 1 year. This is in contrast to owning shares in a Thai Mutual fund or owning Thai government bonds, where they could be a brand new purchase to qualify.

It was an interesting chat, and I concede I learned a lot more from a phone call with BOI than I did by filling in the contact form (where I have yet to receive a reply).

The BOI representatives on the phone were very polite and they seemed to go out of their way to be helpful.

NCC1701 · December 7, 2022

I saw that at least one person has gotten their LTR visa.

Question: What payment methods do they accept? I can find nothing on their website and calling them, they don't seem sure.

I messaged them and their standard response was QR code (not a big fan so don't suggest i set this up). I asked them if they accepted credit cards like Elite Visa does, but it didn't sound promising. Their suggestion was to bring cash.... Sure, that makes sense.

I have asked them if they do bank transfers and am waiting to hear back.

If you have actually gotten a LTR visa and have insight as to what payments they accept, your help would greatly appreciated.

ashkale · December 7, 2022

20 minutes ago, NCC1701 said:

I saw that at least one person has gotten their LTR visa.

Question: What payment methods do they accept? I can find nothing on their website and calling them, they don't seem sure.

There is a discussion upthread about it- if you do not have QR payment method, Cash is the Only other option. I paid the 50k in cash.

K2938 · December 7, 2022

10 minutes ago, NCC1701 said:

Question: What payment methods do they accept? I can find nothing on their website and calling them, they don't seem sure.

If you go through this thread, you will find that cash is now accepted, credit cards not, at least as of the time the respective posts were made. And QR code is also accepted

Pib · December 7, 2022

Update: Known LTR Approvals as of 7 Dec 2022 based on posts in this thread I saw. Added "anotherexpat4444" who received his LTR approval on 7 Dec. Congrats!!! Don't know what type of LTR he applied for or when he applied.

I may have missed some approvals...please speak-up if you have been approved.

Poster & Date Approval Notice Rec'd

1. BKKNono - 15 Sep

2. ashkale - 28 Sep

3. ThailandRyan - 28 Sep

4. pepper402 - 29 Sep

5. gajah - 30 Sep

6. Alotoftravel - 4 Oct

7. James7 - 4 Oct

8. & 9. Misty (and family member) - 4 Oct

10. mudcat - 4 Oct

11. & 12. stuarty (and wife) - 4 Oct

13. Boomer6969 - 5 Oct

14. aublumberg - 12 Oct

15. JJJJJJJJ - 8 Nov

16. smic - 28 Nov

17. anotherexpat4444 - 7 Dec

ThailandRyan · December 7, 2022

44 minutes ago, NCC1701 said:

I saw that at least one person has gotten their LTR visa.

Question: What payment methods do they accept? I can find nothing on their website and calling them, they don't seem sure.

I messaged them and their standard response was QR code (not a big fan so don't suggest i set this up). I asked them if they accepted credit cards like Elite Visa does, but it didn't sound promising. Their suggestion was to bring cash.... Sure, that makes sense.

I have asked them if they do bank transfers and am waiting to hear back.

If you have actually gotten a LTR visa and have insight as to what payments they accept, your help would greatly appreciated.

I was an early LTRWP recipient and I used the QR code transfer method from my KBank account into the one they had me scan. Instantaneous and a receipt issued. My LTRWP was issued on October 7th in Bangkok at the BOI. Since then others have said they paid cash or for those outside of Thailand used a credit card...

Wishing you the best.

Edited December 7, 2022 by ThailandRyan

OldAjahn · December 7, 2022

Since I purchased a Thai bond last year, I may be able to clarify some confusion about bonds. The lady on the BOI promotional video posted earlier suggests that an applicant from abroad who intends to buy a condo after receiving the LTR visa can first buy a bond to satisfy the $250,000 requirement if under the $40000 limit, then sell it to fund the condo purchase. In summary, buying bonds is difficult, and the option of buy a mutual fund in Thailand to satisfy the $250,000 requirement may be better, if it is allowed.

There are three different items that are often called "bonds" in Thailand, and only one is a bond in the financial industry sense.

1. Pantabat rathaban: this is the true bond, issued by the Ministry of Finance. It is sold at Treasury auctions only to primary dealers, and available on the secondary market (over-the-counter) through brokers (members of the Thai Bond Market Association). A list of current bonds is available at thaibma.or.th/EN/market.

2. Pantabat omsap: this is a savings bond issued by the Finance Ministry to encourage savings by Thais, similar to savings bonds in the US, and sold here through banks. By government regulations it can only be sold to Thai citizens and legal permanent residents, though there is some confusion whether it might also be available to holders of the 'yellow book'.

3. Pantabat Thanakan Haeng Chat: these are treasury bills issued by the Bank of Thailand, of terms one year or less. I have no further information as I have not been successful in buying any, but in the US they carry no interest but are sold at a discount.

I was able to purchase a 10-year pantabat rathaban maturing 17 December 2031, number LB31DA, with a 2 % coupon, currently priced at 96.57 yielding 2.42 %. My stock broker at Bualuang Securities (Bangkok Bank) had a friend in the Bangkok Bank bond office, who bought me this over-the-counter as a favor to his friend. He said it's very rare for private individuals to buy bonds in Thailand. Minimum quantity is 1000 shares at 1000 baht a share face value, i.e. a million baht. He called that an 'odd lot'. The spread is not minimal as it is with Treasury bonds in the US.

Holding pantabat rathaban presents an issue about custody. Stock brokers in Thailand don't deal in bonds, only ThaiBMA members, so brokers are reluctant to hold the bond paper (scriptless as is actually the case) and collect the dividends. I had mine keep custody, but only by pulling teeth. Otherwise, you must request the Ministry of Finance to issue you a paper certificate, and then deliver this certificate back when it comes time to sell.

CIMB Bank has a good bond department, and will sell bonds in units as small as 100000 baht. But they don't open bank accounts for foreigners without work permits, and they will not keep custody for any foreigners, making electronic trading impossible.

Pantabat rathaban are not a good option for temporarily parking your condo funds, for the above reasons and because in the current conditions they are too volatile. This October's dollar spike saw Thai bond prices dropping over 15% when calculated in dollars, though they've recovered somewhat now. If you bought a bond to hold for a few months while you shop for a condo, you could easily loose 10 percent of your money.

The better option is T-bills, Pantabat Thanakhan Haeng Chat, since these have a short redemption time and a fixed price, but CIMB did not sell these the last I looked, and I never could find a dealer. The option I suggest for those who want to follow the bond route to a condo, is to buy a mutual fund investing in short-term government bills (money market fund), which every bank investment dept. sells. For example, Bualuang (Bangkok Bank) Treasury Fund B-TREASURY. These fluctuate in price as well, and the last I looked may offer negative return, but the loss just right now may be less than 0.1% and should improve soon. Be aware that you will pay a load fee of .2% or more, and you are still subject to FX risk.

anotherexpat4444 · December 7, 2022

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Update: Known LTR Approvals as of 7 Dec 2022 based on posts in this thread I saw. Added "anotherexpat4444" who received his LTR approval on 7 Dec. Congrats!!! Don't know what type of LTR he applied for or when he applied.

I may have missed some approvals...please speak-up if you have been approved.

Poster & Date Approval Notice Rec'd

1. BKKNono - 15 Sep

2. ashkale - 28 Sep

3. ThailandRyan - 28 Sep

4. pepper402 - 29 Sep

5. gajah - 30 Sep

6. Alotoftravel - 4 Oct

7. James7 - 4 Oct

8. & 9. Misty (and family member) - 4 Oct

10. mudcat - 4 Oct

11. & 12. stuarty (and wife) - 4 Oct

13. Boomer6969 - 5 Oct

14. aublumberg - 12 Oct

15. JJJJJJJJ - 8 Nov

16. smic - 28 Nov

17. anotherexpat4444 - 7 Dec

mine is LTRWFTP

Pib · December 7, 2022

1 hour ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

mine is LTRWFTP

Thanks. And when did you apply as people are definitely interested in how long it takes to get from application submission to notice of approval.

Misty · December 7, 2022

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The same day you posted this I filled in the BOI website contact asking if I could use property (a condominium unit) purchased in 2016 in Thailand, to qualify for the $250K investment for a wealthy pensioner (whose pension income exceeded $40K US$ but less than $80K US$).   I received no answer to my website (fill in the form) query..

So today (at my Thai wife's urging) I called the BOI contact number, and after less than a 10-minute wait I was able to speak to a BOI representative.

They advised me the 2016 real estate purchase of a condominium unit qualified as part (or all) of the $250K investment requirement.

... Of course the "proof is in the pudding" so I won't know until I actually apply, but this was definitely relevant to myself.

...

A further tidbit, my condo was purchased for MORE than $250K US$ equivalent in total (but less than $500K US$ equivalent). I was advised I could only use 50% of the value as my investment because the property is in both my name, and my Thai wife's name. I expected this.

My Thai wife was not so happy about this.

So during the chat with the BOI representative, my wife grabbed the phone, and asked if the property was changed to only being in my name (ie she removed her name), could I then claim the full value of the property as an investment in Thailand?

The answer was 'YES' but with qualifications. The qualifications (according to my wife, as the talk was in Thai and I don't speak Thai):

* if using 50% of the condo value (with condo in both my name and my wife's name), the proof would be the "deed" and the original "purchase to sale" agreement

* if using 100% of the condo value when name changed to ONLY my name after the purchase, then the proof would be the "deed" and also the condo unit investment value as recorded on the Land Office books (which is typically MUCH less than the property sale value).    My wife and I happen to know the value on the Land Office books, and that fortunately greatly exceeds the $250K US$ equivalent, so my wife is now thinking to remove her name off of this specific property for this (and also for another unrelated reasons).

We also asked if a mix of 50% of the 2016 condo value + new Thai government bonds, to exceed the $250K US$ equivalent would suffice, and we were told yes - we may not go that route thou, if my wife legally removes her name from the condo unit property.

We also asked (for the >$40K income proof) if pension coming from multiple sources (pensions from 3 different organisations to exceed the $40K US$ equivalent) would suffice, and we were advised yes (where proof of the pensions would be needed).

...

And another unrelated tidbit - we were told that we could also buy shares in a Thai company, or buy Thai mutual funds, to qualify as part or all of the $250K US$ equivalent. We were thou cautioned, that one MUST have owned the shares in the Thai company for greater than 1 year.   This is in contrast to owning shares in a Thai Mutual fund or owning Thai government bonds, where they could be a brand new purchase to qualify.

It was an interesting chat, and I concede I learned a lot more from a phone call with BOI than I did by filling in the contact form (where I have yet to receive a reply).

The BOI representatives on the phone were very polite and they seemed to go out of their way to be helpful.

Thanks for posting this, there's a lot of useful information here. The Thai mutual fund purchase is a great, apparently new, option for those who need to invest.

anotherexpat4444 · December 7, 2022

8 hours ago, Pib said:

Thanks. And when did you apply as people are definitely interested in how long it takes to get from application submission to notice of approval.

I applied around Oct 27. BOI say my application is approved and now I am waiting from the immigration for result ( next step) .

oldcpu · December 8, 2022

16 hours ago, OldAjahn said:

2. Pantabat omsap: this is a savings bond issued by the Finance Ministry to encourage savings by Thais, similar to savings bonds in the US, and sold here through banks. By government regulations it can only be sold to Thai citizens and legal permanent residents, though there is some confusion whether it might also be available to holders of the 'yellow book'.

Further to this, Bangkok Bank have an offering opening soon (this week and next week) for this type of Savings Bond.

I have a yellow book (which some consider 'proof of residency' in Thailand, although I 'question if that accurate'). Anyway, I might go to Bangkok Bank either this week or next. to inquire about purchasing a couple million baht or so worth of this bond. ... and at that time, see if I qualify. I am currently on a (new) 90-day type-O visa (having switched from being on a Type-OA visa for a couple of years).

My Thai wife also talked to a BOI representative about the purchase of Government Bonds for the LTR Visa Wealthy Pensioner ... and she was advised that the bond had to have a maturity of at least 5 years in the future ... which suggests one must purchase a 7 year or 10 year bond.

But my question to that is if one does get the LTR Wealth Pensioner Visa, ... in 5 years one must again prove that they have the required investment in Thailand. At that point of time the 7-year bond (purchased 5 years earlier) only has 2 years left for maturity. Will it be accepted then? If not accepted, it may not be so easy/convenient to sell that bond and purchase a new bond with more than 5 years to maturity. Its possible, if overall interest rates are higher, that such a 7-year bond (in 5 years time) could be worth some amount of money less than its actual par value. ...

That has me thinking that it may be better to purchase a 10-year bond.

... or simply go for a Mutual Fund instead ... although cynic that I am, I am not a mutual fund believer. I see mutual funds as a way for the mutual fund company owner to ensure they have a good salary, while investing someone else's money. Their 1st priority will be their salary, and the investment a second priority or worse. I've always done better with my own market investments than in mutual funds. ... But clearly I am far too much of a cynic here.

oldcpu · December 8, 2022

20 hours ago, oldcpu said:

So during the chat with the BOI representative, my wife grabbed the phone, and asked if the property was changed to only being in my name (ie she removed her name), could I then claim the full value of the property as an investment in Thailand?

The answer was 'YES' but with qualifications.

...

* if using 100% of the condo value when name changed to ONLY my name after the purchase, then the proof would be the "deed" and also the condo unit investment value as recorded on the Land Office books (which is typically MUCH less than the property sale value). My wife and I happen to know the value on the Land Office books, and that fortunately greatly exceeds the $250K US$ equivalent, so my wife is now thinking to remove her name off of this specific property for this (and also for another unrelated reasons).

Further to this, we investigated the cost of removing my wife's name from our condo unit deed, and only have my name on it (currently the deed has both of our names). We were advised that we would have to pay 2% of the value of my wife's 50% share of the condo as a 'transfer tax' ... which means paying something in the order of paying 80,000 Thai baht as a transfer tax (not counting legal fees). .... I can buy a lot of toys or go for a lot of meals for that 80,000 THB, so dependent on another reason influencing us for the possible condo ownership transfer ... we may or may not go that route.

Misty · December 8, 2022

15 hours ago, Misty said:

Thanks for posting this, there's a lot of useful information here. The Thai mutual fund purchase is a great, apparently new, option for those who need to invest.

Can't believe I didn't mention this important point for US citizens regarding investing in Thai mutual funds. Thai mutual funds (or any "foreign"mutual fund) will almost certainly be considered PFICs under the US tax code. PFICs require special US filing and are subject to a very unfavorable US tax rates as compared to US mutual funds, even if the best option of treatment method is selected. Any US citizen considering a Thai mutual fund purchase should be aware of what they're getting into before making this type of investment, assuming you can find a Thai asset manager willing to sell you one.

That's not to say US citizens should never purchase Thai mutual funds, but it would be important to get good US tax advice ahead of time. Consider what asset class the investment will be in, as well as how that may fit in with other investments.

Pib · December 8, 2022

Misty

I had never heard of PFIC until your post above. I did some googling on PFIC and yea, it sure does sound like overseas mutual funds are taxed at a high rate per U.S. IRS laws/rules. Quite a few websites saying such like the one below.

https://www.goldinglawyers.com/foreign-mutual-funds-pfic-form-8621-fbar-8938-u-s-tax-returns/

Quote

IRS Passive Income Tax Treatment

The IRS strictly enforces PFIC Rules.

Each of Your funds is considered to be a PFIC (Passive Foreign Investment Company). That is because the IRS hates Mutual Funds from overseas — so much so, that foreign mutual funds have been designated as PFICs for tax reporting purposes, which is very bad for tax purposes.

That means that even though all you did was purchase some foreign mutual funds through a recommendation or your own research, the Internal Revenue Service has designated those mutual funds as a “Passive Foreign Investment Company.”

To you, that means that even though the money is sitting overseas in an investment that you have never touched, and/or never had any distribution issued to you, portions of the earnings will be taxed at Ordinary Income rates, and possibly the Highest Income Rates allowable under U.S. law (even if you are not otherwise subject to the highest U.S. income bracket) — depending on the size and timing of your distribution.

Misty · December 8, 2022

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Misty

I had never heard of PFIC until your post above. I did some googling on PFIC and yea, it sure does sound like overseas mutual funds are taxed at a high rate per U.S. IRS laws/rules. Quite a few websites saying such like the one below.

https://www.goldinglawyers.com/foreign-mutual-funds-pfic-form-8621-fbar-8938-u-s-tax-returns/

Yes, US citizens may come out ahead investing in PFICs for certain purposes, for example for Thai tax advantaged accounts such as RMFs, Provident funds or the old LTFs that were discontinued. The LTR visa could be another reason to do this. But definitely you'd want to go into it with eyes open.

K2938 · December 8, 2022

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

... or simply go for a Mutual Fund instead ... although cynic that I am, I am not a mutual fund believer. I see mutual funds as a way for the mutual fund company owner to ensure they have a good salary, while investing someone else's money. Their 1st priority will be their salary, and the investment a second priority or worse. I've always done better with my own market investments than in mutual funds. ... But clearly I am far too much of a cynic here.

1) If it is really true that mutual fund investments are an allowed alternative, then the great benefit of this would be that you can sell the mutual fund whenever you want. 10 years is a very long time and it is just very difficult to plan ahead for 10 years even though you right now might have no doubt at all that you still will be in Thailand in 10 years. You might not and you might then want to be able to exit with as little sunk costs as possible.

2) Assuming it is true that mutual fund investments are an allowed alternative, it would be very useful to know if there are any restrictions on the type of mutual fund (e.g. debt, equity etc.).

3) As Misty is pointing out, there are some potential tax problems for U.S. citizens from foreign mutual funds. However, the higher earnings from an equity mutual fund (if allowed) might well more than compensate for the higher taxes.

4) If true that the BOI now allows mutual funds, this would really be a great sign that things are not cast in stone, but that changes are possible in view of the so far extremely low level of interest in this visa. Equally, it appears that Indonesia has now also decided to make foreign income tax free for its LTR equivalent (https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2453557/indonesia-eyes-property-economic-boost-with-residency-visa-plan-for-foreign-investors), so competition seems to be working for the benefit of all of us.

OldAjahn · December 8, 2022

Thanks, OldCPU, for the reports of your conversations with BOI. Now we need clarification of their rules. Because if a 5+ year bond is required, how could a mutual fund, so readily saleable, be allowed? If I'm following correctly, an applicant could sell the bond just after receiving the visa, and buy a new one just before the five year review, which doesn't make sense from BOI's point of view.

If 5 year + maturity and held past the review date is the true regulation, then check www.thaibma.or.th/EN/Market/YieldCurve/Government.aspx for a list of government bonds of all maturities and spreads. The over-the-counter market is not that liquid for off-the-run issues, I was told, and spreads are wide. So you need to look for recent (on-the-run) issues. To buy five year bonds, there would be an overlap at your 5-year review when you would be holding $500,000 worth of Thai paper, not a safe situation. In the US, the 30-year bond is the usual investor's choice: least volatile, most liquid. You'll see one recent 20 year and a 30-year on the ThaiBMA list. I'm thinking of going that route to the LTR myself, but there's a real question whether that fits with prudent long-term investment goals.

Following the old 60/40 rule, you would allocate 250k to bonds and 375k to equities if your total portfolio of investable assets (not including your primary residence) was 625k. But according to the home-currency rule, at least 60% should be in the home currency. So if my home is dollars, Thai bonds could be allocated 40% of 40% = 16%. Then I would expect a total port. of 1.57 million. Sorry, out of my league. If all your assets and all your expenses are in baht, and you expect to live in Thailand till the end, then your home currency is baht. But if even one of those criteria doesn't hold, then it's dollars or pounds or whatever. If you have a well-diversified international portfolio, and want a high yield on your investments, chances are your currency should be dollars.

Also, there's a recession coming, and the Thai bond yield curve is not yet showing the extreme inversion (recession-pricing) that the US curve shows, which suggests that Thai bonds bought now will loose money in the short-medium term. If you want to buy a 20 or 30 year bond, make sure your portfolio is set up to handle the inflation and FX risk.

K2938 · December 8, 2022

1 hour ago, OldAjahn said:

Thanks, OldCPU, for the reports of your conversations with BOI. Now we need clarification of their rules. Because if a 5+ year bond is required, how could a mutual fund, so readily saleable, be allowed? If I'm following correctly, an applicant could sell the bond just after receiving the visa, and buy a new one just before the five year review, which doesn't make sense from BOI's point of view.

If 5 year + maturity and held past the review date is the true regulation, then check www.thaibma.or.th/EN/Market/YieldCurve/Government.aspx for a list of government bonds of all maturities and spreads. The over-the-counter market is not that liquid for off-the-run issues, I was told, and spreads are wide. So you need to look for recent (on-the-run) issues. To buy five year bonds, there would be an overlap at your 5-year review when you would be holding $500,000 worth of Thai paper, not a safe situation. In the US, the 30-year bond is the usual investor's choice: least volatile, most liquid. You'll see one recent 20 year and a 30-year on the ThaiBMA list. I'm thinking of going that route to the LTR myself, but there's a real question whether that fits with prudent long-term investment goals.

Following the old 60/40 rule, you would allocate 250k to bonds and 375k to equities if your total portfolio of investable assets (not including your primary residence) was 625k. But according to the home-currency rule, at least 60% should be in the home currency. So if my home is dollars, Thai bonds could be allocated 40% of 40% = 16%. Then I would expect a total port. of 1.57 million. Sorry, out of my league. If all your assets and all your expenses are in baht, and you expect to live in Thailand till the end, then your home currency is baht. But if even one of those criteria doesn't hold, then it's dollars or pounds or whatever. If you have a well-diversified international portfolio, and want a high yield on your investments, chances are your currency should be dollars.

Also, there's a recession coming, and the Thai bond yield curve is not yet showing the extreme inversion (recession-pricing) that the US curve shows, which suggests that Thai bonds bought now will loose money in the short-medium term. If you want to buy a 20 or 30 year bond, make sure your portfolio is set up to handle the inflation and FX risk.

For many people who would need to invest 250k USD in Thai government bonds to get the LTR, it would probably make more sense from a financial point of view to look at other visas, the Non-O if over 50 or married to a Thai and Thai Elite if not. The sweet spot for the LTR is people who have sufficient income so that no investment is required or those who have sufficient real estate investments in Thailand anyway

Edited December 8, 2022 by K2938

Misty · December 8, 2022

15 minutes ago, K2938 said:

For many people who would need to invest 250k USD in Thai government bonds to get the LTR, it would probably make more sense from a financial point of view to look at other visas, the Non-O if over 50 or married to a Thai and Thai Elite if not. The sweet spot for the LTR is people who have sufficient income so that no investment is required or those who have sufficient real estate investments in Thailand anyway

Or for those who wish to work

oldcpu · December 8, 2022

On 12/7/2022 at 6:46 PM, OldAjahn said:

2. Pantabat omsap: this is a savings bond issued by the Finance Ministry to encourage savings by Thais, similar to savings bonds in the US, and sold here through banks. By government regulations it can only be sold to Thai citizens and legal permanent residents, though there is some confusion whether it might also be available to holders of the 'yellow book'.

Further to this, I went to a Bangkok Branch today and inquired about purchasing the soon to be offered Thai Government saving's bond.

I was told there are currently two offerings coming up now for Thai government bonds, via Bangkok Bank, which is :

(1) selling 3 year and also 7 year term bonds - where Thai citizens and residents to Thailand can buy such, and

(2) a week later selling 10 year term bonds - where only companies/select organizations can buy such (I may have described that inaccurately - but private citizens can not buy this 10-year offering from my Bangkok Bank branch).

To 'speed up' the discussions with the bank, my Thai wife was talking to them in Thai language and translating to me. At first my wife was told I could not buy the 3 year nor 7 year as they noted a foreigner had to be a 'resident'. My wife then showed them both my 'yellow book' (tabien baan) and my 'pink identification' card, and the branch manager noted that would be accepted as sufficient proof of my Thailand residence.

However I have not yet attempted to place an order to buy the bonds - so its always possible they will change their mind when 'push comes to shove' (so to speak).

Some other tidbits ... my wife was told, normally when Bangkok Bank sells Government bonds, it is 1st come, 1st served as to who gets the bonds. But this year,they are doing it differently for the 3-year and for the 7-year bonds.

The Bank has received so many complaints that its incredibly difficult for the average person to buy government bonds, that they have changed 'the priority'. Instead my wife translated their new policy to be something like 'small lot 1st priority' , which she claimed she was told it could end up be more like a % basis as to whom gets how much. She was advised if I tried to purchase 2-million Thai baht in bonds, it was quite possible I would only get a small % of that purchase amount.

My wife was advised if I put an order for, say 2-million THB, then that amount had to be present in my bank account the date the bond was to be purchased. It would be briefly withdrawn from my Bangkok Bank account, and I would then get what ever allotment was available (to myself) and then the remainder of the 2-million THB not used would be returned, together with the Bond. The 'bond' ownership would be recorded in a special book, somewhat like a bank book that one was given (my wife said given by the 'Bank of Thailand'). Interest would be transferred into one's account and tax automatically deducted from the Bond interest. ... Alternatively (?) one could also apply (and pay for) a bond certificate - with the details here wrt Thai tax on the interest a bit fuzzy for me. .... I was told more details, but its not so relevant to this thread.

I suspect some of the detail here is lost in the translation so don't take the above as gospel.

- - -

After this my wife and I visited a Krungsri bank branch, where my wife knows one of the staff, and we inquired about purchasing of mutual fund (Thai investment) ... Krungsri noted they sold such, a foreigner could buy such, and typically they had a new offering every month. My view is if I would proceed there, I should get the exact name of the fund, and then pass it by BoI (likely phone BoI) to confirm that the specific mutual fund would be acceptable.

I could then go for a mix of Goverment bonds, Mutual fund, and my 50% share of my condo ownership - which would exceed the $250K US$ equivalent for the Wealthy Pensioner (with an income >$40K US$ but < $80K US$) with some margin.

I note my 90-day Type-O Visa permission to stay expires mid-Feb-2023, which is IMHO possibly insufficient time to apply and obtain an LTR Visa (Wealthy pensioner). So I guess I could (1) in early January apply for a 1-year extension on my permission to stay of my Type-O Visa, and (2) in parallel apply for an LTR Visa via BoI.

I have not yet decided if I will buy the bonds/mutual-fund and apply for an LTR Visa, but I am giving it some thought.

Edited December 8, 2022 by oldcpu

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