Ukraine applies for Nato membership after Russia annexes territory

[Lacessit]

54 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If the west stops weapons supply to Ukraine, the war will stop immediately. Then let diplomacy take its course. But of course, there are some that wants the war to continue for as long as possible.

I would put the first sentence of your post up as the most egregious nonsense I have seen in a long time. You think Putin would stop and play nice?

I suggest you check out what happened when Chamberlain got "peace in our time" with Hitler. Putin is no different.

[Gweiloman]

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Putin has stated repeatedly the fall of the Soviet Union was the worst thing that has happened to Russia, and that he wants to create the SU all over again. That's not a buffer zone, that's subjugating other nations.

Russia was doing quite well before Putin's brain fart. He was probably close to the richest man in the world, thanks to Russian exports of oil and gas to an energy-hungry Europe. That is all gone now.

Like all kleptomaniacs, there cannot be enough money and land for Putin.

I agree with your assessment.
 

Am I right in saying that you don’t believe the continued expansion of NATO eastwards was an existential threat to Russia? NATO was after all, created to combat Soviet aggression.

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I agree with your assessment.
 

Am I right in saying that you don’t believe the continued expansion of NATO eastwards was an existential threat to Russia? NATO was after all, created to combat Soviet aggression.

NATO was actually quite moribund prior to the Ukraine invasion, Putin succeeded in unifying it to the point of having Sweden and Finland applying to join.

AFAIK NATO is a defensive organisation only, but Putin would never accept that point of view.

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

As you said, Russia shut down their own pipelines and thus did not need to bomb them.. I guess this is as easily done as turning a valve or something like that. No need to engage in a dangerous situation such as planting huge amounts of explosives on 4 different pipelines. Begs the question then of who might have have done such an irresponsible act. Cui bono and only one nation comes out on top.

And what purpose would the US gain over bombing pipelines. There's no advantage for the US or the world for Russia to collapse. The impact already felt by this conflict is a big part of the global economic problems everyone is feeling. This is 2022 and the world is a much different place than even 20 years ago. Wake up to the facts and lose the stereotypical thinking. The only thing any nation wants other than Russia is for the conflict to stop and Russia to move their troops back to their own country 

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

If the west stops weapons supply to Ukraine, the war will stop immediately. Then let diplomacy take its course. But of course, there are some that wants the war to continue for as long as possible.

Yeah stop supply arms and let Russia overrun the country. How about Russians go back to Russia thats a better end to a war they started. You don't see Ukraine marching into Russia and attacking Russia. A couple strategic support depots along the boarder to disrupt Russian resupply but thats it. But they could easily march into Russia if they wanted to and change the whole direction of the war.   Spatial thinking helps understand the situation rather than repeating old world thinking and canned responses

[kwonitoy]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

If the west stops weapons supply to Ukraine, the war will stop immediately. Then let diplomacy take its course. But of course, there are some that wants the war to continue for as long as possible.

So how did this "special operation" get started in the first place?

Was is Ukraine's fault for existing?

How about this, Putin thought he could roll over the entire country like he did with Crimea and nobody would mind.

Well to quote a phrase, he <deleted>***ed around and found out.

Number one NATO salesman of the year Vladimir Putin.

And now his front lines are collapsing on a daily basis, poor vlad

 

SLAVA UKRAINE

 

[Dan O]

58 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Well, neither of us can say for sure what Putin will do if the west stops the weapons supply.

 

Many experts say that Putin is losing the war. So if the weapons supply stop, it’s would make sense for Putin to take this opportunity and to stop fighting a losing war.

 

Ukraine surely knows that NATO will not accept their membership. Even if they did, it is very likely that one or more of the current members will block it. This application is to further provoke and antagonise Russia. I can’t imagine that Zelensky is so naive to want to do this so obviously, there is another country pulling Zelensky’s strings. Wonder who can that be. Cui bono…

More of your twisted logic of looking in the closet or under the bed for the boogeyman

[Gweiloman]

28 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I would put the first sentence of your post up as the most egregious nonsense I have seen in a long time. You think Putin would stop and play nice?

I suggest you check out what happened when Chamberlain got "peace in our time" with Hitler. Putin is no different.

Would Putin play nice? I don’t know and neither do you. But if I were Putin and losing the war as badly as many in the west are saying, then I would definitely consider playing nice. I would do a Robert Holmes a Court.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.  Continue and face a suspension.  

 

[Gweiloman]

29 minutes ago, Dan O said:

And what purpose would the US gain over bombing pipelines. There's no advantage for the US or the world for Russia to collapse. The impact already felt by this conflict is a big part of the global economic problems everyone is feeling. This is 2022 and the world is a much different place than even 20 years ago. Wake up to the facts and lose the stereotypical thinking. The only thing any nation wants other than Russia is for the conflict to stop and Russia to move their troops back to their own country 

There is another thread for discussion on the pipeline issue, as kindly noted by another poster.

[Dan O]

25 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

There is another thread for discussion on the pipeline issue, as kindly noted by another poster.

Hahaha can't back up your position after you make statements that are off point again. Thats fine I stated my position on it so feel free to move on 

[Gweiloman]

9 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Hahaha can't back up your position after you make statements that are off point again. Thats fine I stated my position on it so feel free to move on 

This thread is about Ukraine joining NATO, not about the pipelines as kindly pointed out by another poster. The mods don’t like off topic posts (just friendly advice to a new poster with 600+ posts).

[Dan O]

7 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

This thread is about Ukraine joining NATO, not about the pipelines as kindly pointed out by another poster. The mods don’t like off topic posts (just friendly advice to a new poster with 600+ posts).

Then you should stay on topic 

[Gweiloman]

58 minutes ago, Dan O said:

More of your twisted logic of looking in the closet or under the bed for the boogeyman

My post seems very logical to me. Which parts don’t you agree with?

[Dan O]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

My post seems very logical to me. Which parts don’t you agree with?

the one I commented on. No one is pulling Zellensky's strings, he's fully capable to guide his country. And he chooses to want to pursue to apply to Nato for his country as the thread header states

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, Adumbration said:

No its not.  America, and the west, are systematically removing all of the off ramps to deescalate this conflict.  Same thing happened in the lead up to WW1.  The world went to war because of an isolated incident.  That is where this is headed.  But that has been the US plan all along. 

What off-ramps are you referring to? 

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

It depends. Who was driving the expansion of NATO? (no need to answer, just a rhetorical question). Russia has protested for years, this is a redline for Russia. This is just another example of the proxy wars the collective west like to engage in.

"Who was driving the expansion of NATO?"

 

Putin, obviously.  Countries don't join a defensive alliance unless they feel threatened.

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

If the west stops weapons supply to Ukraine, the war will stop immediately. Then let diplomacy take its course. But of course, there are some that wants the war to continue for as long as possible.

If Russia withdraws from occupied territories the war will stop immediately.  The let diplomacy take its course; Russia agreeing to reparations for Ukraine in exchange for the lifting of sanctions.

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

 

 

Yes, the war can also be probably stopped the way you all suggested. However, it’s naive to think that will happen. So the war will continue and Europe (and probably Russia as well) will continue to suffer. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face lol. 

Probably Russia will suffer?  Do you think everything is hunky-dory in Russia now?  Is that why the old and infirm are being drafted and the people are rushing to get out of the country?

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I believe he was trying to create a buffer zone, something that any threatened person would do.

Bingo!  That's why the "buffer zone" victims, consisting of nations that didn't want to be under Putin's thumb, have joined or want to join Russia.

 

Russia should try making allies instead of intimidating and occupying neighboring countries.  It's much cheaper.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I agree with your assessment.
 

Am I right in saying that you don’t believe the continued expansion of NATO eastwards was an existential threat to Russia? NATO was after all, created to combat Soviet aggression.

The continued expansion of NATO was not a threat to Russia.  If Russia had not been threatening its neighbors there would have been no expansion.  However the continued expansion of NATO was a threat to Putin's desire to recreate the Soviet empire.

 

BTW:  NATO was created to deter and defend against Soviet aggression, and was forced to evolve to defend against Russian aggression.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Would Putin play nice? I don’t know and neither do you. But if I were Putin and losing the war as badly as many in the west are saying, then I would definitely consider playing nice. I would do a Robert Holmes a Court.

No one knows for certain if Putin would play nice, only that he never has before.

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Would Putin play nice? I don’t know and neither do you. But if I were Putin and losing the war as badly as many in the west are saying, then I would definitely consider playing nice. I would do a Robert Holmes a Court.

You are not Putin, so your comment is irrelevant. His history demonstrates quite convincingly the balance of probabilities is tilted very much towards him continuing his aggression.

 

It took the Russians months using the god of war, artillery, to gain Donetsk and Luhansk. The early thrust at Kyiv descended into chaos. 8 months later, the Ukrainians are taking back swathes of territory in weeks or even days. Putin has been forced to order mobilisation because the troops in battle are exhausted, and have no morale left.

Russian army logistics are in tatters.

 

If that's not losing the war badly, I don't know what is.

 

[Gweiloman]

Nice to have such a constructive discussion in this thread. Most of the points raised are logical and sensible. But alas, none are the solutions needed to bring the war to an end.
 

So the war will drag on, many more will be killed on both sides. Innocent civilians, particularly Ukrainians, will continue to suffer. Europe will continue to suffer, with its taxpayers continuously paying for weapons instead of much needed energy. 

 

The military industrial complex will benefit greatly as will LNG suppliers. Even Iran will benefit, if the stories about it’s drones are true.

 

And Ukraine still won’t be able to join NATO.

[placeholder]

14 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It wont happen because Countries involved in a conflict are not permitted to join NATO

Funny. I recalled after you mentioned that that someone had brought up this point in some other thread. I assumed that it was true. Then I decided to do a little hunting on the Web to see if it actually is true. And I can't find anything in the Nato Articles that make such a stipulation. And then I found this:

 

Is it possible to join NATO in a military conflict?

Most often, the seminar participants question the possibility of membership in the Alliance while the country is in a state of war. So, I propose to deal with the issue in detail from a legal perspective. The only document defining the procedure for gaining membership in the Alliance is the North Atlantic Treaty of March 21, 1949. I suggest we study its content to answer the question.

https://www.unian.info/politics/10023578-is-it-possible-to-join-nato-in-a-military-conflict.html

 

The author's conclusion is that there is no clause that forbids membership to a nation in conflict. Perhaps you can produce evidence to counter this claim?

[Bkk Brian]

Today's statement from Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

 

Those who propose Ukraine to give up on its people and land — presumably not to hurt Putin’s bruised ego or to save Ukraine from suffering — must stop using word “peace” as an euphemism to “let Russians murder and rape thousands more innocent Ukrainians, and grab more land”.

 

Ukraine has no need to join NATO to kick the terrorists out.

[placeholder]

56 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Nice to have such a constructive discussion in this thread. Most of the points raised are logical and sensible. But alas, none are the solutions needed to bring the war to an end.
 

So the war will drag on, many more will be killed on both sides. Innocent civilians, particularly Ukrainians, will continue to suffer. Europe will continue to suffer, with its taxpayers continuously paying for weapons instead of much needed energy. 

 

The military industrial complex will benefit greatly as will LNG suppliers. Even Iran will benefit, if the stories about it’s drones are true.

 

And Ukraine still won’t be able to join NATO.

You don't actually know that the war will drag on. Russia's economy may well collapse before then. Putin may suddenly find himself extremely unwelcome in Russia.

 

"Pro-Kremlin pollster FOM reported that the proportion of Russians saying their friends and relatives are feeling anxiety jumped after the mobilization announcement from 35 percent to 69 percent. The survey was conducted from Sept. 23 to Sept. 25."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/30/putin-speech-russia-ukraine-war/

 

And your concern for Ukrainians is obviously fake. We've seen what Russians have already done to Ukrainian civilians. What will they do if unchecked? Have you read some of the articles published in the official journal of the Russian govt about the nature of Ukrainians? These articles are vile and are obvousy incitements to commit genocide.

 

As more LNG becomes available to Europe, prices will drop. And it will be years and years before Russia can connect to China. And even if it succeeds in that, China already has in place huge gas deals with Turkmenistan. So how much Russian gas will it require? In addition, natural gas power generation is already beginning to be outcompeted by wind and solar. And its other chief use, to help create nitrogen based fertilizer, is also beginning to be phased out. So the prospects for Russian gas aren't especially rosy.

Edited October 4, 2022 by placeholder

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Today's statement from Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

 

Those who propose Ukraine to give up on its people and land — presumably not to hurt Putin’s bruised ego or to save Ukraine from suffering — must stop using word “peace” as an euphemism to “let Russians murder and rape thousands more innocent Ukrainians, and grab more land”.

 

Ukraine has no need to join NATO to kick the terrorists out.

It strikes me Ukraine is fighting with one hand tied behind its back, it is stipulated the weapons supplied by the West cannot be used to attack targets within Russia itself. Although the Ukrainians are causing mayhem on Russian supply lines.

 

Zelensky has stated there will be no negotiation while Putin remains in power. He's more a man of his word than Putin is, which means if the Russians want to get back to normal, Putin will have to be ousted.

 

IMO it is quite reasonable to describe Russia as a failed state.

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It strikes me Ukraine is fighting with one hand tied behind its back, it is stipulated the weapons supplied by the West cannot be used to attack targets within Russia itself. Although the Ukrainians are causing mayhem on Russian supply lines.

 

Zelensky has stated there will be no negotiation while Putin remains in power. He's more a man of his word than Putin is, which means if the Russians want to get back to normal, Putin will have to be ousted.

 

IMO it is quite reasonable to describe Russia as a failed state.

True, not sure how that will work with the lend lease agreement now in play since 1st Oct for weapons from the US allowing Ukraine’s military to access a host of new resources in addition to the normal aid US gives.

 

This Ukraine joining of NATO announcement is in my opinion a red herring, just a message to Putin that talks are over. After all, back in early March at the beginning of the war Zelensky publicly stated that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO and offered that as a peace deal to Putin, this was ignored by the Kremlin.

 

President Zelensky: 'Ukraine won't join NATO to stop the war with Russia'

 

As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Well, neither of us can say for sure what Putin will do if the west stops the weapons supply.

 

Many experts say that Putin is losing the war. So if the weapons supply stop, it’s would make sense for Putin to take this opportunity and to stop fighting a losing war.

 

Ukraine surely knows that NATO will not accept their membership. Even if they did, it is very likely that one or more of the current members will block it. This application is to further provoke and antagonise Russia. I can’t imagine that Zelensky is so naive to want to do this so obviously, there is another country pulling Zelensky’s strings. Wonder who can that be. Cui bono…

You do post such absolute rubbish most of the time.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63126156

 

Ukrainian troops have broken through Russian positions on the Dnieper river north-east of Kherson, a strategic Russian-held city in southern Ukraine.

The advance was reported by the Russian military and Russian-installed officials in the region. There is heavy Russian defensive fire, they say.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky said "there are new liberated settlements in several regions".

In the east, Ukrainian forces pushed into Russian-held Luhansk region.

President Zelensky said "fierce fighting continues in many areas", in his evening address to the nation, but he did not give details.

On Saturday his forces recaptured the important hub town of Lyman in the east, lying near the Luhansk regional border. Russia's military had turned Lyman into a logistical base.