6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

I think you are being a touch disingenuous. Nobody overthrows a government with pepper spray, flagpoles, and  three dudes with guns.

 

One can safely assume that militia-style thugs like the Oath Keepers have myriad firearms at their disposal. There were approximately 10,000 rioters yet 9,997 of them "forgot" their guns.    Sure.

 You forgot to mention about the zip ties, along with the guns, for tying up congress members if they'd been able to reach them.

 

Armed Jan. 6 rioter had zip ties during Capitol attack, friend testifies at trial

Rocky Hardie testified that he and Guy Reffitt drove to D.C. from Texas armed with firearms and both believed the 2020 election was stolen.

 

"WASHINGTON — Guy Reffitt was armed with a handgun and zip ties when he tried to storm the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, a friend and fellow member of a right-wing group testified at the first Capitol riot trial on Friday.

 

Rocky Hardie, a former member of the Texas Three Percenters, testified that he and Reffitt traveled to D.C. from Texas in Reffitt’s Chevy Equinox, that was loaded up with their rifles, their handguns, and ammo.

...

Reffitt and Hardie, the latter testified, both believed Trump's false claims that the 2020 election was stolen, and joked about dragging House Speaker Nancy Pelosi down the stairs of the U.S. Capitol.

 

(more)

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733

 

 

Surprised biden didn't use the old " The Soul of America is at stake"

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Well that kind of thinking isn't a very uniting outlook. There's no doubt there are many who still doubt the '20 results but in a true democracy, they should be allowed to do so. 

But what if their claims about 'stolen votes' etc., are well proven to have no validity?

34 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You might want to ask why, if election denying candidates are such a threat, why did the Democratic party spend $43 million trying to get so-called "election deniers" ON the ballot? Hypocrisy, thy name is Democrat.

 

https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-spent-43-million-helping-election-deniers-win-their-primaries-1731068

 

Democrats Spend $46 Million to Expose ‘Satanic’ Election Deniers — and More

"In one ad, Minnesota secretary of state nominee Kim Crockett is shown calling herself the “election-denier-in-chief.” In Michigan, an ad shows secretary of state nominee Kristina Karamo saying that casual sex can lead to demonic possession. And in Arizona, an ad highlights Mark Finchem’s ties to QAnon, a conspiracy theory about a Satanic-worshipping cabal."

 

https://news.yahoo.com/democrats-spend-46-million-expose-140550262.html

 

 

 

Again Biden is right.

The MAGA people will probably consolidate their power permanently by 24.

Then non MAGA people that thought gas prices which presidents don't control are more important than avoiding a minority rule totalitarian regime as hard to shake off as Putin might regret it but then it will be too late. 

9 minutes ago, scorecard said:

But what if their claims about 'stolen votes' etc., are well proven to have no validity?

They obviously don't agree.

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

They obviously don't agree.

They're objectively wrong.

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

They obviously don't agree.

 

Under the American system of democracy, disagreeing is fine.

 

BUT (regarding the documented activities of MAGA folks):

 

Armed insurrection to prevent a lawfully elected president from being certified to take office is not.

 

Threatening to hang your political opponents is not.

 

Subverting elections with illegal schemes is not.

 

Harassing and intimidating election workers and voters is not.

 

etc etc etc.

 

 

Hmm. 2020 election deniers are a dire threat to our democracy. However, denying Trump won fairly in 2016 by blaming Russia and impeaching him out of spite not once but twice, was to save democracy. Makes sense.

 

Throw the hypocrites out. Though I doubt much will change in a lot of important things. Because we are a corporatocracy and Big Money tends to get its way.

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Under the American system of democracy, disagreeing is fine.

 

BUT (regarding the documented activities of MAGA folks):

 

Armed insurrection is not.

 

Threatening to hang your political opponents is not.

 

Subverting elections with illegal schemes is not.

 

Harassing and intimidating election workers and voters is not.

 

Good.

More MAGA "democracy" in action, so a judge had to step in.

 

Judge restricts how right-wing group can patrol Arizona drop boxes

A federal judge in Arizona imposed new restrictions against a right-wing group after voters complained about aggressive patrols of ballot drop boxes in the state.

 

The judge blocked members of the group, Clean Elections USA, from openly carrying guns or wearing body armor within 250 feet of drop boxes.

...

An Arizona voter testified at Tuesday’s five-hour hearing about his encounter with right-wing “bullies” at a ballot drop box, describing how they “terrified” his wife by filming them and falsely accusing them of voter fraud.

 

(more)

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/01/politics/arizona-voter-intimidation-ballot-drop-boxes/index.html

 

 

Biden is right. Democracy is at stake.

 

37 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 You forgot to mention about the zip ties, along with the guns, for tying up congress members if they'd been able to reach them.

 

Armed Jan. 6 rioter had zip ties during Capitol attack, friend testifies at trial

Rocky Hardie testified that he and Guy Reffitt drove to D.C. from Texas armed with firearms and both believed the 2020 election was stolen.

 

"WASHINGTON — Guy Reffitt was armed with a handgun and zip ties when he tried to storm the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, a friend and fellow member of a right-wing group testified at the first Capitol riot trial on Friday.

 

Rocky Hardie, a former member of the Texas Three Percenters, testified that he and Reffitt traveled to D.C. from Texas in Reffitt’s Chevy Equinox, that was loaded up with their rifles, their handguns, and ammo.

...

Reffitt and Hardie, the latter testified, both believed Trump's false claims that the 2020 election was stolen, and joked about dragging House Speaker Nancy Pelosi down the stairs of the U.S. Capitol.

 

(more)

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733

 

 

The group is aptly named since it seems about 3% of them were armed.  The other 97%? Guess they forgot.

 

Sorry, but adding "zip ties" to the dread list of weapons doesn't strengthen your argument very much.  Perhaps you can count the horned helmet of the naked Viking cosplay guy as a weapon too...

55 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

I think you are being a touch disingenuous. Nobody overthrows a government with pepper spray, flagpoles, and  three dudes with guns.

 

One can safely assume that militia-style thugs like the Oath Keepers have myriad firearms at their disposal. There were approximately 10,000 rioters yet 9,997 of them "forgot" their guns.    Sure.

How many guns did it take to kill Abraham Lincoln or JFK, and thus remove democratically elected leaders?

 

In each case, just ONE was enough to accomplish their ends.

 

35 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Democrats Spend $46 Million to Expose ‘Satanic’ Election Deniers — and More

"In one ad, Minnesota secretary of state nominee Kim Crockett is shown calling herself the “election-denier-in-chief.” In Michigan, an ad shows secretary of state nominee Kristina Karamo saying that casual sex can lead to demonic possession. And in Arizona, an ad highlights Mark Finchem’s ties to QAnon, a conspiracy theory about a Satanic-worshipping cabal."

 

https://news.yahoo.com/democrats-spend-46-million-expose-140550262.html

 

 

 

OK, and your point is  what, exactly? That the left hand didn't know what the right hand was spending money on? Of course the Democrats spend money on attack ads to damage their opponents, no news there. But spending money to get them nominated? Different story.

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

How many guns did it take to kill Abraham Lincoln or JFK?

 

In each case, just ONE was enough to accomplish their ends.

 

,,, and in each of those cases, the US was transformed into a tyrannical fascist dictatorship, right? 

 

Or not. 

 

Apples and oranges my friend.  If you can find a largely unarmed insurrection in the US that succeeded, then I will join you on the panic train. Until then, sorry but the idea that a ragtag mob of beer bellied loudmouths were any serious threat to the Capitol, let alone to the institutions of the Republic, is simply laughable. 

Just now, Hanaguma said:

OK, and your point is  what, exactly? That the left hand didn't know what the right hand was spending money on? Of course the Democrats spend money on attack ads to damage their opponents, no news there. But spending money to get them nominated? Different story.

 

I think it was more of a comment on the quality of the "election denying" candidates the Republican party is fielding in the current election:

 

"In one ad, Minnesota secretary of state nominee Kim Crockett is shown calling herself the “election-denier-in-chief.” In Michigan, an ad shows secretary of state nominee Kristina Karamo saying that casual sex can lead to demonic possession. And in Arizona, an ad highlights Mark Finchem’s ties to QAnon, a conspiracy theory about a Satanic-worshipping cabal."

 

People deserve to know just who's being put on the ballot.

 

59 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

I think you are being a touch disingenuous. Nobody overthrows a government with pepper spray, flagpoles, and  three dudes with guns.

 

One can safely assume that militia-style thugs like the Oath Keepers have myriad firearms at their disposal. There were approximately 10,000 rioters yet 9,997 of them "forgot" their guns.    Sure.

Total denial. There were hundreds in the building ransacking and smashing offices, looking for Pence with calls to hang him. Even a shout to shoot Nancy Pelosi.

 

It only takes a few loons to cause mayhem. No firearms needed look at what just happened to Paul Pelosi

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

People deserve to know just who's being put on the ballot.

Trust me the MSM will not let Democrats down in reporting all that's wrong with their opponents. Yet they lose. Fearmongering and sneering aren't a winning combination.

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I think it was more of a comment on the quality of the "election denying" candidates the Republican party is fielding in the current election:

 

"In one ad, Minnesota secretary of state nominee Kim Crockett is shown calling herself the “election-denier-in-chief.” In Michigan, an ad shows secretary of state nominee Kristina Karamo saying that casual sex can lead to demonic possession. And in Arizona, an ad highlights Mark Finchem’s ties to QAnon, a conspiracy theory about a Satanic-worshipping cabal."

 

People deserve to know just who's being put on the ballot.

 

Oh, I don't disagree at all. There were some real winners for sure.  Yet there was also an incredibly cynical play by the Democrats to actually get some deniers onto the ballot, thinking they were easier to defeat than more mainstream GOP candidates. 

 

And that is just sick.  You simply can't base your campaign on the dangers of election deniers, and then secretly spend millions trying to get them nominated.  It completely undercuts the legitimacy of the original argument that they are a threat to democracy. 

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Total denial. There were hundreds in the building ransacking and smashing offices, looking for Pence with calls to hang him. Even a shout to shoot Nancy Pelosi.

 

It only takes a few loons to cause mayhem. No firearms needed look at what just happened to Paul Pelosi

I am not defending their actions whatsoever. The idiots who vandalized the Capitol deserve to be punished and mocked.  But not taken so seriously because they were incapable of doing any serious long term damage to the institutions of the nation. They had neither the means nor the intellectual horsepower to do it. 

 

OK, let's play "what if".  Worst case scenario: What if they actually DID find Pence and Pelosi and actually harmed them? The election results would not have changed, the vast majority of Americans would consider them murdering scumbags, and life would have gone on.  We would still have President Biden and a functioning political system. 

 

THAT is the difference between a riot and an insurrection. 

4 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

I am not defending their actions whatsoever. The idiots who vandalized the Capitol deserve to be punished and mocked.  But not taken so seriously because they were incapable of doing any serious long term damage to the institutions of the nation. They had neither the means nor the intellectual horsepower to do it. 

 

OK, let's play "what if".  Worst case scenario: What if they actually DID find Pence and Pelosi and actually harmed them? The election results would not have changed, the vast majority of Americans would consider them murdering scumbags, and life would have gone on.  We would still have President Biden and a functioning political system. 

 

THAT is the difference between a riot and an insurrection. 

"THAT is the difference between a riot and an insurrection"

 

No that is the difference between a successful insurrection and a failed one.

 

Had the Oat keepers got all their weapons that they had ready into the building then it could have been much worse.

 

23 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

,,, and in each of those cases, the US was transformed into a tyrannical fascist dictatorship, right? 

 

Or not. 

 

Apples and oranges my friend.  If you can find a largely unarmed insurrection in the US that succeeded, then I will join you on the panic train. Until then, sorry but the idea that a ragtag mob of beer bellied loudmouths were any serious threat to the Capitol, let alone to the institutions of the Republic, is simply laughable. 

 

MAGA democracy:

 

 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/b3_O91gyj9o

 

And, some 40% of Republicans (and 41% of so-called independents) surveyed believe violence against the government can be justified:

 

"While a 2015 survey found no significant partisan divide when it comes to the question of justified violence against the government, the new poll identified a sharper rise on the right — with 40 percent of Republicans and 41 percent of independents saying it can be acceptable. The view was held by 23 percent of Democrats, the survey finds."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/01/1-3-americans-say-violence-against-government-can-be-justified-citing-fears-political-schism-pandemic/

 

That's NOT democracy... And people who support that kind of action, as many Republicans do, are ANTI-democratic.

 

 

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

"THAT is the difference between a riot and an insurrection"

 

No that is the difference between a successful insurrection and a failed one.

 

Had the Oat keepers got all their weapons that they had ready into the building then it could have been much worse.

 

"All their weapons" meaning what exactly? Did they have a cache of AR-15s enough to equip an infantry company in the bed of a Dodge Ram somewhere close by?  I agree it would have been worse- worse for the idiots carrying the weapons. Being actually armed would have gotten a lot of them shot by police.  

 

But that didnt happen. The Oath Keepers "forgot" to bring their toys, had a bit of a tantrum in the Capitol, and now are getting spanked. Hardly cause for alarm. The federal system is not so fragile.

Just now, Hanaguma said:

"All their weapons" meaning what exactly? Did they have a cache of AR-15s enough to equip an infantry company in the bed of a Dodge Ram somewhere close by?  I agree it would have been worse- worse for the idiots carrying the weapons. Being actually armed would have gotten a lot of them shot by police.  

 

But that didnt happen. The Oath Keepers "forgot" to bring their toys, had a bit of a tantrum in the Capitol, and now are getting spanked. Hardly cause for alarm. The federal system is not so fragile.

Terry Cummings told the jury during the second week of the historic seditious conspiracy trial that he traveled to Washington with several members of a group from Florida, bringing his own AR-15 rifle and ammunition box to contribute to the Quick Reaction Force (QRF) allegedly established by the group in a hotel outside the city.

 

“I have not seen that many weapons in one location since I was in the military,”

Just now, Hanaguma said:

"All their weapons" meaning what exactly? Did they have a cache of AR-15s enough to equip an infantry company in the bed of a Dodge Ram somewhere close by?  I agree it would have been worse- worse for the idiots carrying the weapons. Being actually armed would have gotten a lot of them shot by police.  

 

But that didnt happen. The Oath Keepers "forgot" to bring their toys, had a bit of a tantrum in the Capitol, and now are getting spanked. Hardly cause for alarm. The federal system is not so fragile.

 

They had their weapons stored nearby...waiting for Trump's call... as cited in the prior news reports here.

 

And as I said above, ONE gun is all it takes.

 

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Why would any American who believes in the country's democracy vote for lawmakers from a Republican party that in effect condoned (by not impeaching Trump) an armed insurrection he fomented attempting to overthrow the presidential election?

 

Why would any American who believes in the country's democracy vote for candidates from a Republican party whose party leaders in multiple states tried to subvert the country's presidential election with a scheme to promote fake presidential electors?

 

Why would any American who believes in the country's democracy vote for candidates from a Republican party where a large share of them continue to deny the legitimacy of an elected president and election outcome, even after dozens of courts and judges across the land, including those appointed by Trump, found their claims entirely without merit?

 

Etc etc etc.

 

The Big Lie is alive and well in the Republican Party at large, and not just among MAGA extremists. And Biden is right when he says, those kind of people and candidates are threats to the American democracy.

 

No sensible person would vote for Biden. Worst leader ever in any country. He is a joke. USA is a total embarrassment.

 

How anyone can defend him is beyond belief. 

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

MAGA democracy:

 

 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/b3_O91gyj9o

 

And, some 40% of Republicans (and 41% of so-called independents) surveyed believe violence against the government can be justified:

 

"While a 2015 survey found no significant partisan divide when it comes to the question of justified violence against the government, the new poll identified a sharper rise on the right — with 40 percent of Republicans and 41 percent of independents saying it can be acceptable. The view was held by 23 percent of Democrats, the survey finds."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/01/1-3-americans-say-violence-against-government-can-be-justified-citing-fears-political-schism-pandemic/

 

That's NOT democracy... And people who support that kind of action, as many Republicans do, are ANTI-democratic.

 

 

You don't need to show me videos of the riots to convince me that they took place. I believe you.   

 

Wish I could read the article but it is hidden behind a paywall. Sounds like a very general question was asked in order to provoke a certain response. Hence a quarter of Democrats agreeing.  

3 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

No sensible person would vote for Biden. Worst leader ever in any country. He is a joke. USA is a total embarrassment.

 

How anyone can defend him is beyond belief. 

Thank you for your reasoned and evidence based argument. Such a valuable contribution. Not at all just mere venting.

49 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Hmm. 2020 election deniers are a dire threat to our democracy. However, denying Trump won fairly in 2016 by blaming Russia and impeaching him out of spite not once but twice, was to save democracy. Makes sense.

 

Throw the hypocrites out. Though I doubt much will change in a lot of important things. Because we are a corporatocracy and Big Money tends to get its way.

Exactly. Democrats are the biggest liars and hypocrites. 4 years of lies about Russia. They rioted after Trump won. Then claim the other side are anti democracy - what a joke.

 

The sooner the Democrats get the boot the better.

 

The Democrats deserve to lose for 20 years in a row.

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Terry Cummings told the jury during the second week of the historic seditious conspiracy trial that he traveled to Washington with several members of a group from Florida, bringing his own AR-15 rifle and ammunition box to contribute to the Quick Reaction Force (QRF) allegedly established by the group in a hotel outside the city.

 

“I have not seen that many weapons in one location since I was in the military,”

Again, how many is that? He brought an AR, what about the guys he traveled with? He also testified that his Oath Keeper friends didnt carry their guns into the Capitol "because it was illegal to do so". These guys really sound like hard core insurrectionists, don't they?

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/12/politics/oath-keeper-guns-dc-january-6/index.html