Germany set to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, Der Spiegel reports

[sqwakvfr]

49 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the Russians captured any Americans "aiding" the Ukrainians in the war zone IMO they have every right to assume the US is actually involved on the ground.

By only sending weapons the west can maintain that they are not combatants.

One workaround is to have Ukraine directly hire civilian experts.  Of course the money would be funneled from the west into Ukraine. I just can’t see the Ukrainians effectively deploy advanced tanks into battle without direct assistance from western experts.  Now some are talking about F-16’s to Ukraine?  Really, the only way for an F-16 to conduct combat missions would be to have former western military pilots fly them.  What is the average flight hours for an experienced F-16 pilot to deploy to an actual combat zone?  1000, 2000 or more.  It appears “symbolism” means more than actual capabilities?  Just my thoughts as an old man who was once a soldier a long time ago.  Not every soldier is capable of going to war.  Training and simulations mean nothing when actual bullets are flying.  Some freeze and some excel.  No no knows how one will perform under real life stress.  This applies to any profession.  

[Mickeymaus]

1 hour ago, StayinThailand2much said:

I read that Ukraine is already asking for fighter jets. What's next, ballistic missiles? - Maybe just a question of time till the West/NATO gets directly involved.

I remember when Hitler asked the Germans "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg / Do you want total war". Enough idiots were fascinated and shouted "Yes". I am afraid there are still enough idiots out there... 

[tgw]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the Russians captured any Americans "aiding" the Ukrainians in the war zone IMO they have every right to assume the US is actually involved on the ground.

By only sending weapons the west can maintain that they are not combatants.

You mean "Americans that are active members of the US military or US intelligence".

Because AFAIK, some American volunteers fighting for Ukraine have already been killed by Russia.

[tgw]

11 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

One workaround is to have Ukraine directly hire civilian experts.  Of course the money would be funneled from the west into Ukraine. I just can’t see the Ukrainians effectively deploy advanced tanks into battle without direct assistance from western experts.  Now some are talking about F-16’s to Ukraine?  Really, the only way for an F-16 to conduct combat missions would be to have former western military pilots fly them.  What is the average flight hours for an experienced F-16 pilot to deploy to an actual combat zone?  1000, 2000 or more.  It appears “symbolism” means more than actual capabilities?  Just my thoughts as an old man who was once a soldier a long time ago.  Not every soldier is capable of going to war.  Training and simulations mean nothing when actual bullets are flying.  Some freeze and some excel.  No no knows how one will perform under real life stress.  This applies to any profession.  

nope.

experienced fighter jet pilots can convert to another plane in just about 6 weeks.

training has started already.

[Bkk Brian]

 

14 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

One workaround is to have Ukraine directly hire civilian experts.  Of course the money would be funneled from the west into Ukraine. I just can’t see the Ukrainians effectively deploy advanced tanks into battle without direct assistance from western experts.  Now some are talking about F-16’s to Ukraine?  Really, the only way for an F-16 to conduct combat missions would be to have former western military pilots fly them.  What is the average flight hours for an experienced F-16 pilot to deploy to an actual combat zone?  1000, 2000 or more.  It appears “symbolism” means more than actual capabilities?  Just my thoughts as an old man who was once a soldier a long time ago.  Not every soldier is capable of going to war.  Training and simulations mean nothing when actual bullets are flying.  Some freeze and some excel.  No no knows how one will perform under real life stress.  This applies to any profession.  

Well we do know that Ukraine fighter pilots have been in the US for sometime already training on western jets. The funding by the US had been approved back in July. “Our military pilots went to the United States, funds were allocated for their training,” 

[kwonitoy]

51 minutes ago, Venom said:

The same as the rest of us, nuclear Armageddon and the end of humanity. But you're a tough cookie so you and your family will be okay. Don't worry. 

Ok question.

In nuclear warfare or armageddon as you put it, it takes 2 to tango.

Russia launches a nuke......where? what's the target? In Ukraine I would assume, and also assuming they are functional 

So who retaliates with a second nuclear launch? or counterlaunch,  Ukraine doesn't have any

The US isn't going to launch neither would the UK or France

China has stated to Russia to not even think about it.

So where is the world shattering end of humanity coming from?

 

Their has been over 2000 nuclear tests preformed by numerous countries since WW2, 528 in the atmosphere

 https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

 

We're still here

[tgw]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course any outcome is possible, and I'm certainly no more psychic than any one else, but I see only 3 possibilities

1/ Russia wins in Ukraine

2/ Russia loses and becomes chaos

3/ nuclear war ensues.

your scenarios are very biaised

 

1/ Russia wins in Ukraine - yes, but: China feels encouraged to attack Taiwan, North Korea feels that it can attack the south, etc.  So it's more wars coming and more potentially nuclear confrontations.

 

2/ Russia loses and becomes chaos - maybe there will be a bit of chaos - or not too much. and anyway, just in Ruzzia. That's the best variant, as it would also free Belarus and Georgia and possibly some other territories that were widely autonomous with their own polls and duma, presidents, own currency and own tax systems before Putin coerced them into joining the Russian Federation without holding referendums.

 

3/ nuclear war ensues. I think it's still highly unlikely, as everything that Putin holds dear would disappear.

[Bkk Brian]

53 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed. If anyone is thinking Germany will remove it's tanks from it's own defense IMO they are dreaming.

That's exactly was has occurred, your opinion needs revisiting. The first batch is direct from Bundeswehr. The armed forces of the Federal Republic of Germany.

[thaibeachlovers]

25 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

One workaround is to have Ukraine directly hire civilian experts.  Of course the money would be funneled from the west into Ukraine. I just can’t see the Ukrainians effectively deploy advanced tanks into battle without direct assistance from western experts.  Now some are talking about F-16’s to Ukraine?  Really, the only way for an F-16 to conduct combat missions would be to have former western military pilots fly them.  What is the average flight hours for an experienced F-16 pilot to deploy to an actual combat zone?  1000, 2000 or more.  It appears “symbolism” means more than actual capabilities?  Just my thoughts as an old man who was once a soldier a long time ago.  Not every soldier is capable of going to war.  Training and simulations mean nothing when actual bullets are flying.  Some freeze and some excel.  No no knows how one will perform under real life stress.  This applies to any profession.  

The benefit of having served is that one actually understands things like "training" and "logistics".

[tgw]

the tanks are a good thing of course, but Ukrainians must remember that tanks are relatively fragile and exposed to ATGM. They need to make sure the Leopards with be used correctly.

Also, I'm slightly worried about Ruzzians having been trained to kill MBTs, and equipped to kill MBTs as per Warsaw Pact tactics. In theory, killing MBTs, especially Western MBT, is something Ruzzian troops have been equipped and trained for. Let's not repeat the Turkish's poor tactics against ISIS that lost them at least 8 Leopard 2A4 tanks.

Edited January 25, 2023 by tgw

[thaibeachlovers]

28 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

One workaround is to have Ukraine directly hire civilian experts.  Of course the money would be funneled from the west into Ukraine. I just can’t see the Ukrainians effectively deploy advanced tanks into battle without direct assistance from western experts.  

Obvious problem with that is a foreign civilian would be regarded as a mercenary, and they have none of the protections accorded soldiers. Better not get captured.

[BE88]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems some posters enthusiasm for war is only surpassed by their lack of knowledge of what war entails.

Nations have missile submarines to take revenge in the case where an enemy does attack the mainland and destroys the on land missiles.

 

I agree with your information, many confuse PlayStation with real life.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

Ok question.

In nuclear warfare or armageddon as you put it, it takes 2 to tango.

Russia launches a nuke......where? what's the target? In Ukraine I would assume, and also assuming they are functional 

So who retaliates with a second nuclear launch? or counterlaunch,  Ukraine doesn't have any

The US isn't going to launch neither would the UK or France

China has stated to Russia to not even think about it.

So where is the world shattering end of humanity coming from?

 

Their has been over 2000 nuclear tests preformed by numerous countries since WW2, 528 in the atmosphere

 https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

 

We're still here

Russia launches a nuke......where? what's the target? In Ukraine I would assume,

 

and if the US decides to get involved directly in response, then it's WW3.

 

Escalation only goes in one direction.

[heybruce]

Once again, the people who want the west to surrender Ukraine to Russia, and presumably other countries when Russia gets ambitious again, insist there are no choices other than surrender or World War III.

 

I don't know if they are active Russia supporters or just Putin's useful idiots.  Regardless, they ignore the fact that the world has existed between the extremes of total surrender and total nuclear war since the 1950's.  It has often been ugly, but it's been better than the two extremes.

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, BE88 said:

I agree with your information, many confuse PlayStation with real life.

 

We leave the playstation skills to the drone operators. Here's one filmed in Dnipro where a Russian missile killed over 30 civilians. Don't let that stop you mocking posters here though.

 

 

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

nope.

experienced fighter jet pilots can convert to another plane in just about 6 weeks.

training has started already.

Really? An F-16 has Fly By Wire flight controls.  Soviet made aircraft mostly have hydraulic flight controls.  So an experienced pilot can transition from a MiG to an F-16 in 6 weeks and effectively complete combat missions.  I really don’t know because the most advance aircraft I have ever flown was a twin engine Beechcraft.

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obvious problem with that is a foreign civilian would be regarded as a mercenary, and they have none of the protections accorded soldiers. Better not get captured.

Russia has been the Wagner Group for years in several countries.

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The benefit of having served is that one actually understands things like "training" and "logistics".

Add the following items to logistics:  Jet Fuel, spare parts for the Patriot system, Leopard tanks and eventually the M1A-Abrams.  Good to luck to the Ukrainian logisticians. 

[stupidfarang]

19 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

No absolutely not. But I am aware of western "interference" in Ukraine's political landscape, which will certainly have been provocative from the Russian viewpoint. The narrative that there is no reason whatsoever that Russia should feel provoked and NATO are blameless, and we should all choose this as the hill to die on is IMO very misguided. I am also aware that pre invasion the western media narrative was that Ukraine had problems with a movement of evil political extremists fond of the German military of the 30's, don't hear much/anything about that these days. I think any unwelcome interference in other foreign nations is unacceptable.

 Whatever happened during Trump's term that kept Russia's neck wound in is worth repeating. Obama and Biden both saw Russian invasions of the Ukraine under their watch. Walking softly with a big stick, while encouraging negotiation and understanding = good. Firing missiles, rolling the tanks, and thinking the radioactive fallout wont reach the Thai beaches = bad.

What western interference are you referring to? Pre-Russian invasion or post Russian invasion? please show examples. I do believe we do not all "choose this as the hill to die on" so a rather dramatic comment.

 

"Evil political extremists fond of the German military of the 30's" that could apply to many far-right wing groups or Nationalists to be found in many countries, could even be applied to the groups who stormed the USA capital. So, nothing unique there.

 

Trumps term? What about the media rumours about incriminating photos of Trump and stories of golden showers? Maybe some unanswered questions there on why Trump loves Putin and believes what Putin says compared to what his own advisors say. Am sure Trump was playing the long game for his future business. 

 

"Walking softly with a big stick, while encouraging negotiation and understanding” has not worked, it has been seen as a sign of weakness by Russia, Russia only recognises strength and people who know Putin and know Russia and have experienced living under Russia rule know this. There is a very good interview with the president of Lithuania and how they knew Russia would be back after their independence and the other Baltic states know this as well from their personal experience with Russia.

 

There is only so much one can take before they have to say stop and stand up to a bully, rolling over and playing dead will not work as you will still get kicked. I agree that "any unwelcome interference in other foreign nations is unacceptable" saying that we all know that every country meddles in another country’s affairs, so what do you do? Turn a blind eye or protest/fight back?

 

We are very lucky in life if we live in a country that allows us to have freedom of speech (yes I know it can be limited) and we should aim to keep that freedom because once you have lost it and live under a rule where you dare not say anything because the chances of you disappearing the next day, then you will appreciate freedom and democracy.

[Northstar1]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the Russians captured any Americans "aiding" the Ukrainians in the war zone IMO they have every right to assume the US is actually involved on the ground.

By only sending weapons the west can maintain that they are not combatants.

Do you actually believe that the US and other NATO countries aren’t involved?

Really?

foreign fighters have already been captured and released, many killed.

when the Moskva was sunk, the US aerial survalance jet was circling in the region.

do you think it’s the Ukrainians that are supplying target info for the himars rockets?

the US knows exactly how many Iranian drones were sent to Russia!

2300ish I believe.

and the train that went to North Korea and returned to Russia loaded with weapons!

it wasn’t kimchi!

the US know when Putin <deleted> last and how many sheets of <deleted> he used, don’t kid yourself!

[Tropposurfer]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:53 AM, rabas said:

 

There are no legitimate targets in Putin's criminal war.

 

Your absolutely right rabas, well said!

The subtle and poor management of language as named by you, and by folks by floating (whether accidentally or deliberately) must be carefully managed and called out asap.

Critical thinking folks must counter the false narratives our world is awash in.

The notion that Putin would ask his people to attack NATO, and follow his ultra-nationalist nutter generals is ludicrous indeed.

He has neither the resources i.e. the troops, conventional weapons, and enough home support for this madman against a well oiled, cohesive fighting force such as NATO a force which outnumbers, in every aspect, his nations capabilities tens of times over is farcical. Putin knows his nation and his hold of power cannot bare the consequences of responses by NATO should he ever attack NATO countries. The response if he should attack any NATO nation would be swift and devastating (conventional weapons)He knows this and is cornered.

The BS he and others nutter in Russia have hinted around nukes is also total BS and won't happen. Why? Because to do so he'd irradiate and destroy millions of Russians in doing so and lay waste not only to parts of Western Europe in the fallout, and his Ukraine targets but his own national resources e.g. food production, oil etc.

The issue of the US supplying the beast M1 tank has been touted as a lever on the Germans to release Leopards, and the free movement of other NATO nations for their Leopards to Ukraine through Germany, and the huge stockpile of ammunition and spares needed to service them in a conflict and is seems to have worked. 

The numbers of tanks possibly to follow from NATO nations is is the many hundreds of Leopards, with a mass total of many thousands of Leopards ready to roll. These tanks are more than a match for any Russian T series tank I have read. The capacity to assault in force by a nation that has proven its battle smarts is a definite shift in battlefield power balances.

The Ukrainians have proven to be very capable in war using and with such new weapons their offensive capabilities cannot be underestimated.

I have a feeling that we will see very effective assaults, with mass Russian surrenders, whole areas being abandoned by the Russians once these tanks become available. 

I have a sense that the Ukraine won't be sending such mobile gun platforms to be smashed by drone and missile strikes in the way the Ruskies have. I imagine they'll use them much more creatively and effectively.

[Scott]

Troll post and replies removed.

 

[BarraMarra]

18 hours ago, BE88 said:

Yes, because they are Russian soldiers, sacrifice is a high honor.

Is that why there's so many  young Russians in Thailand BE88, or as I suspect there Dodging the draft because they don't want to die in a Ukraine field.

[StayinThailand2much]

3 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

I remember when Hitler asked the Germans "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg / Do you want total war". Enough idiots were fascinated and shouted "Yes". I am afraid there are still enough idiots out there... 

I think it was Joseph Goebbels to asked that question, but otherwise you're right.

Edited January 26, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Really? An F-16 has Fly By Wire flight controls.  Soviet made aircraft mostly have hydraulic flight controls.  So an experienced pilot can transition from a MiG to an F-16 in 6 weeks and effectively complete combat missions.  I really don’t know because the most advance aircraft I have ever flown was a twin engine Beechcraft.

Golly, someone should tell the US that they don't need advanced flight training as any experienced pilot can be flying combat missions in 6 weeks, 555555555555555555555.

I think the US will be somewhat reluctant to let 6 weekers fly their F16, which costs many millions of $, in combat.

Quite apart from losing the plane, they don't want the Russians capturing one and reverse engineering it.

If for some strange reason, 6 weekers were allowed to fly in combat, the Russians will be lovin' it.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, BarraMarra said:

Is that why there's so many  young Russians in Thailand BE88, or as I suspect there Dodging the draft because they don't want to die in a Ukraine field.

That would be like all the US kids that moved to Canada in the 1960s to escape that war.

 

Given they ain't refugees, they'll have to go back when their visas expire- not a good plan if that was their intention.

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Golly, someone should tell the US that they don't need advanced flight training as any experienced pilot can be flying combat missions in 6 weeks, 555555555555555555555.

I think the US will be somewhat reluctant to let 6 weekers fly their F16, which costs many millions of $, in combat.

Quite apart from losing the plane, they don't want the Russians capturing one and reverse engineering it.

If for some strange reason, 6 weekers were allowed to fly in combat, the Russians will be lovin' it.

Somebody already has

Ukrainian Fighter Pilots Act

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8144/text?q={"search"%3A"Ukrainian+fighter+pilots"}

The money appropriated is being used to train Ukrainian pilots to fly US fighter aircraft including f-15s and f-16s.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Tropposurfer said:

The numbers of tanks possibly to follow from NATO nations is is the many hundreds of Leopards, with a mass total of many thousands of Leopards ready to roll.

Tell us more about those thousands of Leopards being sent to Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-military-technology-european-union-germany-611c4cddd142db39e44f4091a4d4adbc

One big appeal of the German-made tanks are their sheer number: More than 2,000 have been deployed in over a dozen European countries and Canada. Overall, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann says over 3,500 units have been supplied to 19 countries.

 

So, if we say 3,000 are battle ready, being optimistic, how many of them would be released for Ukraine, bearing in mind, countries have them for THEIR defense?

 

Perhaps a more realistic number is

https://www.politico.eu/article/allies-two-leopard-tank-battalions-ukraine-germany-olaf-scholz-nato-allies-volodymyr-zelenskyy-mark-rutte-spain-norway-joe-biden/

BERLIN — Germany and its European partners plan to “quickly” send two Leopard 2 tank battalions to Ukraine — suggesting about 80 vehicles — the government in Berlin announced Wednesday, adding that Germany would provide one company of 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks “as a first step.”

 

 

 

[Tropposurfer]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Tell us more about those thousands of Leopards being sent to Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-military-technology-european-union-germany-611c4cddd142db39e44f4091a4d4adbc

One big appeal of the German-made tanks are their sheer number: More than 2,000 have been deployed in over a dozen European countries and Canada. Overall, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann says over 3,500 units have been supplied to 19 countries.

 

So, if we say 3,000 are battle ready, being optimistic, how many of them would be released for Ukraine, bearing in mind, countries have them for THEIR defense?

 

Perhaps a more realistic number is

https://www.politico.eu/article/allies-two-leopard-tank-battalions-ukraine-germany-olaf-scholz-nato-allies-volodymyr-zelenskyy-mark-rutte-spain-norway-joe-biden/

BERLIN — Germany and its European partners plan to “quickly” send two Leopard 2 tank battalions to Ukraine — suggesting about 80 vehicles — the government in Berlin announced Wednesday, adding that Germany would provide one company of 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks “as a first step.”

 

 

 

I never said thousands were being sent. I said there were thousands around the NATO nations in total, and could be if needed and offered used (paraphrase).

[BE88]

1 hour ago, BarraMarra said:

Is that why there's so many  young Russians in Thailand BE88, or as I suspect there Dodging the draft because they don't want to die in a Ukraine field.

Yes, on both sides, both Russians and Ukrainians, dying with honor for the country is not within everyone's reach. It's not that I'm in favor of this solution, I'm just describing how it works in the military field of many countries.

If you have done military service you would understand what I mean.

Heroes who died on the battlefield are always hailed as heroes even if it was just unfortunate that they found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

From what the news reports it can be seen that on both sides of the conflict there are many deaths in heroes. And one wonders how many are those who want to die including the so-called volunteers, they seem many thousands.