Future of UK fossil fuels at stake in test case

[Social Media]

 

The latest step in a woman's legal fight over a Surrey oil drilling permit has concluded.

Sarah Finch's lawyers told the Supreme Court that planning authorities should have considered the climate impacts of burning the oil, not just extracting it.

Surrey County Council said it followed planning law.

The case could spell the end of new UK fossil fuels projects when judges reach a decision in the coming months.

The climate impacts at the heart of the case are 'downstream emissions' - the greenhouse gas emissions released when the oil will be burned. Ms Finch says these are estimated to be 10 million tonnes over 20 years.

One airline passenger on a return trip from London to Boston, US emits around one tonne of carbon.

 

Lawyers for Ms Finch told the court that greenhouse gas emissions from burning oil are an "inevitable" and "indirect" effect of extracting oil.

Barristers acting for Surrey County Council said that only impacts from constructing the oil wells themselves should be assessed by authorities.

"This is not a climate change case," Harriet Townsend KC told the court.

 

FULL STOTRY

 

[richard_smith237]

I wonder if Sarah Finch is prepared to go back to using the horse and cart. 

How will she heat her house ? ... does she use candles to light her home ?

 

Naturally she avoids flying anywhere on holiday... because that would just be hypocritical, right ?

 

 

 

[kwilco]

34 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I wonder if Sarah Finch is prepared to go back to using the horse and cart. 

How will she heat her house ? ... does she use candles to light her home ?

 

Naturally she avoids flying anywhere on holiday... because that would just be hypocritical, right ?

 

 

 

I imagine she is - however there is now no way we can increase fossil fuel usage - there is not argument for - we may all have to think about a horse and cart.

[kwilco]

36 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

aturally she avoids flying anywhere on holiday... because that would just be hypocritical, right ?

So in your eyes her hypocrisy - perceived or otherwise -  justifies the continued use of fossil fuels?

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, Social Media said:

The case could spell the end of new UK fossil fuels projects

We still need oil for lubrication and to make plastic and pharmaceuticals. 

 

Agreed it is too valuable to simply burn.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

So in your eyes her hypocrisy - perceived or otherwise -  justifies the continued use of fossil fuels?

Yes....     I do not yet see a better alternative other than making combustion of fossil fuels clean which is something that can be done. 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Agreed it is too valuable to simply burn.

Alternatives for transportation ? (shipping / Aircraft ?)

Alternatives for to meet the huge electricity demand ? (nuclear ?)

 

Solar, Wind & hydroelectric won't (its just not enough to meet demand). 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes....     I do not yet see a better alternative other than making combustion of fossil fuels clean which is something that can be done. 

 

Ah-ha! a climate change denier. No more to be said.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:44 PM, kwilco said:

So in your eyes her hypocrisy - perceived or otherwise -  justifies the continued use of fossil fuels?

IMO there is no need to justify the use of oil for motivating machinery.

For the vast number of the world's population, replacing oil is a myth, a fairy story.

Of course I doubt Sarah Finch gives a monkey's for them. She's OK and to heck with the poor of the world that rely on oil burning machines to get around and to grow the food they eat.

 

Such arrogance!

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:37 AM, kwilco said:

Ah-ha! a climate change denier. No more to be said.

Can't come up with a decent argument, so resort to ( intended ) insults!

 

I know the climate is changing, but IMO the "lets all save the world by driving electric cars" thing is just rich people wanting to make a profit by fooling people that electric cars and windmills will change the climate to something it never was.

 

Just a load of Chicken Littles IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:25 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Yes....     I do not yet see a better alternative other than making combustion of fossil fuels clean which is something that can be done. 

 

There is a better, transition to hydrogen, the real clean alternative to oil for machinery motivation.

[kwilco]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There is a better, transition to hydrogen, the real clean alternative to oil for machinery motivation.

If you think it's down to what private vehicle we drive then you have a totally blinkered view of the situation.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, kwilco said:

If you think it's down to what private vehicle we drive then you have a totally blinkered view of the situation.

At least I have an opinion on what WOULD work ( hydrogen ), unlike the empty chorus of voices crying that "we must do something" without ever saying what we should do.

It's IMO ludicrous to even suggest that we should all buy expensive electric cars with their polluting rare earth metals and exploited miners in Africa, and limited life span batteries that no one has a clue how to recycle, when most of the vehicles on the planet will continue to use oil for the foreseeable future.

 

All I see are plenty of so called world leaders polluting the atmosphere flying to "conferences" to talk a load of hot air, without coming up with anything that is affordable, achievable and acceptable to most people.

[kwilco]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

At least I have an opinion on what WOULD work ( hydrogen ), unlike the empty chorus of voices crying that "we must do something" without ever saying what we should do.

It's IMO ludicrous to even suggest that we should all buy expensive electric cars with their polluting rare earth metals and exploited miners in Africa, and limited life span batteries that no one has a clue how to recycle, when most of the vehicles on the planet will continue to use oil for the foreseeable future.

 

All I see are plenty of so called world leaders polluting the atmosphere flying to "conferences" to talk a load of hot air, without coming up with anything that is affordable, achievable and acceptable to most people.

QED - you just don't get the big picture. You are just fixating on one aspect and for some unknown reason you think you are the only one who knows about hydrogen - we ALL know about it and how it can be fitted into the scheme of things and how it is already being used and the future possibilities - you however seem incapable of seeing the whole picture.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, kwilco said:

QED - you just don't get the big picture. You are just fixating on one aspect and for some unknown reason you think you are the only one who knows about hydrogen - we ALL know about it and how it can be fitted into the scheme of things and how it is already being used and the future possibilities - you however seem incapable of seeing the whole picture.

You keep going on about the big picture, so tell us all about it.

I'm not interested in playing some bizarro game with you, in which I'm supposed to know what you are on about.

[placeholder]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:25 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Yes....     I do not yet see a better alternative other than making combustion of fossil fuels clean which is something that can be done. 

 

I'm sure you are just about to provide some evidence that the combustion of fassil fuels can be made to be clean. And what about the CO2 that's generated by combustion?

[placeholder]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:26 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Alternatives for transportation ? (shipping / Aircraft ?)

Alternatives for to meet the huge electricity demand ? (nuclear ?)

 

Solar, Wind & hydroelectric won't (its just not enough to meet demand). 

Once again a post not exactly chock full of evidence.

Here's what evidence looks like:

What Europe showed the world about renewable energy

https://www.vox.com/climate/2023/2/21/23594544/europe-electricity-natural-gas-renewable-energy-russia

 

Clean energy is taking over the Texas grid. State officials are trying to stop it.
Wind and solar are rapidly growing, but Texas Republicans want to throw a lifeline to natural gas.

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/23577512/texas-clean-energy-wind-solar-natural-gas-ercot-blackout

[ozimoron]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:44 PM, kwilco said:

So in your eyes her hypocrisy - perceived or otherwise -  justifies the continued use of fossil fuels?

We don't all have to become Amish to want to do something about fossil fuel overuse.

[placeholder]

On 7/16/2023 at 9:20 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

At least I have an opinion on what WOULD work ( hydrogen ), unlike the empty chorus of voices crying that "we must do something" without ever saying what we should do.

It's IMO ludicrous to even suggest that we should all buy expensive electric cars with their polluting rare earth metals and exploited miners in Africa, and limited life span batteries that no one has a clue how to recycle, when most of the vehicles on the planet will continue to use oil for the foreseeable future.

 

All I see are plenty of so called world leaders polluting the atmosphere flying to "conferences" to talk a load of hot air, without coming up with anything that is affordable, achievable and acceptable to most people.

You may have an opinion but given that you never provide any facts to back it up, we should consider it baseless until proven otherwise.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

You may have an opinion but given that you never provide any facts to back it up, we should consider it baseless until proven otherwise.

???????????????

What facts?

Hydrogen is a proven technology, and been used for some time already.

Exploited miners in Africa is well known.

That rare earth is polluting to refine is well known.

That car batteries have no proper recycling possible at this time is understood.

That so called "world leaders" pollute the atmosphere while flying to conferences has been referenced on this forum multiple times.

That oil will continue to be in use indefinitely in most parts of the world is highly likely.

 

If a certain poster wants to point the finger at another poster for not posting facts, that poster can point a finger in a mirror.

[Bandersnatch]

On 7/16/2023 at 9:20 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

At least I have an opinion on what WOULD work ( hydrogen ), unlike the empty chorus of voices crying that "we must do something" without ever saying what we should do.

It's IMO ludicrous to even suggest that we should all buy expensive electric cars with their polluting rare earth metals and exploited miners in Africa, and limited life span batteries that no one has a clue how to recycle, when most of the vehicles on the planet will continue to use oil for the foreseeable future.

 

All I see are plenty of so called world leaders polluting the atmosphere flying to "conferences" to talk a load of hot air, without coming up with anything that is affordable, achievable and acceptable to most people.

Good luck with Hydrogen in Thailand. Where are you going to buy your Hydrogen car  - none for sale here. Toyota keeps making promises about it's Mirai but you can't buy it here. Then where will you fill it up? Thailand has no public H2 filling stations.

 

I make power for my electric car from my home solar system  - try making H2 at home.

 

On 7/16/2023 at 9:20 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

At least I have an opinion on what WOULD work ( hydrogen )

Would work? but doesn't work!

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Good luck with Hydrogen in Thailand. Where are you going to buy your Hydrogen car  - none for sale here. Toyota keeps making promises about it's Mirai but you can't buy it here. Then where will you fill it up? Thailand has no public H2 filling stations.

 

I make power for my electric car from my home solar system  - try making H2 at home.

 

Would work? but doesn't work!

Can you buy a hydrogen car anywhere?

 

Not talking about now. I'm saying what they should be investing in.

 

If hydrogen was actually taken seriously it would probably make every electric car obsolete and of no value. No need to invest in polluting power stations to charge millions of electric cars- delivered to point of sale just like CNG used to be in NZ when many cars were dual fuel.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Good luck with Hydrogen in Thailand. Where are you going to buy your Hydrogen car  - none for sale here. Toyota keeps making promises about it's Mirai but you can't buy it here. Then where will you fill it up? Thailand has no public H2 filling stations.

 

I make power for my electric car from my home solar system  - try making H2 at home.

 

Would work? but doesn't work!

Good luck when you need to get a new battery.

[thaibeachlovers]

28 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

I make power for my electric car from my home solar system  - try making H2 at home.

How about when you want to travel from Chiang Rai to the Gulf islands and back. Plenty of charging points along the way are there? Got plenty of time to waste while it's being charged?

 

Of course one could go for this option. Picture from google images.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Can you buy a hydrogen car anywhere?

 

Not talking about now. I'm saying what they should be investing in.

 

If hydrogen was actually taken seriously it would probably make every electric car obsolete and of no value. No need to invest in polluting power stations to charge millions of electric cars- delivered to point of sale just like CNG used to be in NZ when many cars were dual fuel.

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not talking about now

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be

 

The economics don't make any sense. Currently the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming of natural gas. The downside to this process is that its by-products are major atmospheric release of CO2. Green hydrogen produced through electrolysis using renewable power costs US$10-15 per kg - once it has been transported to the filling station the selling price will be much more and make filling up a tank prohibitively expensive.  H2 Cars are way more expensive than electric cars to buy.

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Good luck when you need to get a new battery.

My battery pack is made up of battery modules that can be replaced individually, so you don't need to replace the whole pack over a few damaged cells. The battery has an 8 year 80% warranty. I have driven it for 2 years and have lost 1km of range.  

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How about when you want to travel from Chiang Rai to the Gulf islands and back. Plenty of charging points along the way are there? Got plenty of time to waste while it's being charged?

 

Of course one could go for this option. Picture from google images.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Plenty of charging points along the way are there?

Yes actually there are 

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Good luck when you need to get a new battery.

Electric Car Batteries Lasting Longer Than Predicted Delays Recycling Programs

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/?sh=5a1eb8be5332

[placeholder]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

???????????????

What facts?

Hydrogen is a proven technology, and been used for some time already.

Exploited miners in Africa is well known.

That rare earth is polluting to refine is well known.

That car batteries have no proper recycling possible at this time is understood.

That so called "world leaders" pollute the atmosphere while flying to conferences has been referenced on this forum multiple times.

That oil will continue to be in use indefinitely in most parts of the world is highly likely.

 

If a certain poster wants to point the finger at another poster for not posting facts, that poster can point a finger in a mirror.

What does it mean that hydrogen is a "proven technology"? As apposed to what? So are EV batteries.

Hydrogen is currently very expensive to produce. And most of it comes from fossil fuels. And it's very polluting.  There is some promise in drilling for hydrogen and via green powered electrolysis but the technology is not there yet.

The exploitation of cobalt miners in Africa may be well known, but what clearly isn't known to you is that there are widely used EV batteries out there now that don't use cobalt.

Tesla says that its next generation of magnets won't need rare earths.

And you're 100% wrong about car batteries having in proper recycling at this point. In fact, the big problem is that because EV batteries are lasting much longer than expected, there aren't enough of them to supply the recycling facilities.

How world leaders get to where they're going is proof of what, exactly?

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be

 

The economics don't make any sense. Currently the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming of natural gas. The downside to this process is that its by-products are major atmospheric release of CO2. Green hydrogen produced through electrolysis using renewable power costs US$10-15 per kg - once it has been transported to the filling station the selling price will be much more and make filling up a tank prohibitively expensive.  H2 Cars are way more expensive than electric cars to buy.

 

 

Everything gets cheaper the more it is available. I'm not talking about now.

How about using solar power on sea water?

 

BTW did you know that nuclear submarines use sea water to produce O2? No other way to stay submerged for months.