Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[quake]

27 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

Correction: They do indeed care about our money, just not us. They would prefer we fly in, hand over our money, then fly home. Expats are unwelcome here, evident by how they treat us, our money is actually all they care about.

Sorry you are correct.

I'm surprised they don't have a drop box at the airport for our wallets.

Then we could just return home on the same flight. 

 

[JustThisOnePostOnly]

This is a fantasy I know, but just in case somebody powerful is reading...

 

What is the difference between letting me stay here indefinitely as a retiree on a visa vs. letting me stay as a citizen?

 

I think I can speak for many Americans (who are taxed by our government regardless of where we live) when I say I would jump at the chance to pay taxes exclusively to Thailand.  Can only do that if we renounce our U.S. citizenship, and we can only do that if we get that second passport.

 

I have to believe this would end up being a huge chunk of money.  It wouldn't just be the Americans who are already here, you'd find all kinds of people who would come here and happily pay taxes to Thailand just for the opportunity to not fund the things the U.S. is doing today.

[Mike Teavee]

Will start receiving my private pension(s) in Feb 2026 & the current plan is to take 8-10Million THB as a tax free lump sum and use it to buy a Condo/support my LTR Wealthy Pensioner application but if Thailand is going to take approx. 3.5Million Tax from this then obviously that won't be happening.

 

I wonder if I can do a Hotblack Desiato (https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Hotblack_Desiato) & spend 1 year Dead (to Thailand) to get around it.

 

Joking aside, as a single guy who loves to travel it wouldn't be hard for me to do a year or 2 where I spend < 180days in Thailand & bring the money in during that time. 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Thaindrew]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Will start receiving my private pension(s) in Feb 2026 & the current plan is to take 8-10Million THB as a tax free lump sum and use it to buy a Condo/support my LTR Wealthy Pensioner application but if Thailand is going to take approx. 3.5Million Tax from this then obviously that won't be happening.

 

I wonder if I can do a Hotblack Desiato (https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Hotblack_Desiato) & spend 1 year Dead (to Thailand) to get around it.

 

Joking aside, as a single guy who loves to travel it wouldn't be hard for me to do a year or 2 where I spend < 180days in Thailand 

 

the property market lobby must be working hard to push back against this being an implication of the new interpretation of the rules, it would kill the property market or kill the current level of pricing

[rabas]

1 hour ago, whiteman said:

as I said b4 it is looking more like a lot of lump sums will be coming into Thailand just b4 the 1st of Jan to get around the new rules.  To get one at least the next few years worry free

From reading the rules, I suspect only lump sums that were taxable income prior to 2023, and, the taxee was tax resident in Thailand in the year the income was earned overseas.

 

2023 earnings are not exempt because tax has always been assessed on income brought in during the year it is earned, for Thai and foreigners.

 

IOW, there are no new taxes, they only closed a well known loophole. That was income earned overseas, while tax resident in Thailand, was only taxable if brought into Thailand in the year it was earned. Now, it is taxable any year you bring it in, if, you earned it while a tax resident in Thailand.   

 

 

I experienced this a few years ago when I sold a valuable coin collection at auction in China, as a Thai tax resident with a retirement visa and no tax ID. I called the Revenue Dept and ask what to do.

 

They explained all tax residents must pay personal income tax on earnings from overseas, but only if brought in in the year it is earned, and only on the earnings (profit) not the sale price. They then suggested I wait and bring the money in the year after the earnings are realized, in which case it was no longer taxable.

 

All Thailand has done is remove that "wait till next year and it's not taxable" loophole.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by rabas

[Neeranam]

27 minutes ago, rabas said:

All Thailand has done is remove that "wait till next year and it's not taxable" loophole.

I don't think they've done this. 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Will start receiving my private pension(s) in Feb 2026 & the current plan is to take 8-10Million THB as a tax free lump sum and use it to buy a Condo/support my LTR Wealthy Pensioner application but if Thailand is going to take approx. 3.5Million Tax from this then obviously that won't be happening.

If its tax free, how would the Thai govt take any? 

If there's any issue taking in 10 million, buy bitcoin and sell gradually P2P on binance or another exchange. 

[circa02]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:58 PM, Espanol said:

 

Revolut and N26 cards don't charge fees/commissions  for thai baht transactions.

 

But they are only for European citizens.

 

 

You are joking. Revolut add a rare currency fee for THB, and an out of office hours forex fee, for card thai baht transactions, combining up to 3% if you go do your shopping at Tesco / Tops this morning, most people using Rev are being battered up to 3%.  It's not 2015. Revolut is a no go.

[Neeranam]

Just now, circa02 said:

You are joking. Revolut add a rare currency fee for THB, and an out of office hours forex fee, for card thai baht transactions, combining up to 3% if you go do your shopping at Tesco / Tops this morning, most people using Rev are being battered up to 3%.  It's not 2015. Revolut is a no go.

Use crypto. Com debit card and get 3% cashback. 

[wwest5829]

In a related taxation action, Americans, please note: 

We are excited to announce that H.R. 5432 Tax Simplification for Americans Abroad Act has been introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives. Join us for a webinar with the sponsor of the bill, Congressman Don Beyer (D VA-08) on Wednesday, September 27 at 12pm ET to find out more!

Click here to RSVP

The Tax Simplification for Americans Abroad Act will:

• Create a simplified tax return form to help make it easier for Americans filing from abroad who owe no U.S. tax
• Eliminate double taxation for pensions and retirement distributions (including Social Security benefits), scholarships, fellowship grants, disability benefits, childcare expenses, family medical leave, and unemployment benefits
• Consolidate the FBAR into FATCA, increase the filing threshold, and eliminate the requirement to report separately to FinCEN

Please call your House Representative today and ask them to co-sponsor the bill. Click here for how to call and what to say. 

[Mike Teavee]

12 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

If its tax free, how would the Thai govt take any? 

If there's any issue taking in 10 million, buy bitcoin and sell gradually P2P on binance or another exchange. 

It's actually the other way round... if the money was part of a "Taxed Pension" then I don't believe the Thai govt can take any as I would already have paid tax under the UK/Thai DTA (Double Taxation Agreement), it's the fact that it is tax free in the UK that is concerning me. 

 

Bitcoin etc... seem to be one of the main areas that the Thai govt is looking to start taxing gains from so is probably the last thing you should do in this scenario... But that aside, the point is to bring in >$250,000 investment to support my LTR Visa application so needs to be "Out in the Open".  

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[rabas]

21 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think they've done this. 

This is what they will do January 1, 2024.

 

Translation of the new rule:

Section 1: A person who is Persons residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because the property is in Foreign countries according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and took that assessable income Entering Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in the calculation. To pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought in in Thailand.

 

From this coconut article:

The change announced September 15 is meant to close a loophole in the tax system that allows people to avoid paying income tax on foreign assets and earnings by leaving the income abroad until the next tax year.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by rabas

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, Thaindrew said:

the property market lobby must be working hard to push back against this being an implication of the new interpretation of the rules, it would kill the property market or kill the current level of pricing

Specially for chinese buyers, the most significant, who have just started coming back.  Their tax treaty is only for companies and most of the money they bring in for money laundering anyway. 

[Thaindrew]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It's actually the other way round... if the money was part of a "Taxed Pension" then I don't believe the Thai govt can take any as I would already have paid tax under the UK/Thai DTA (Double Taxation Agreement), it's the fact that it is tax free in the UK that is concerning me. 

 

Bitcoin etc... seem to be one of the main areas that the Thai govt is looking to start taxing gains from so is probably the last thing you should do in this scenario... But that aside, the point is to bring in >$250,000 investment to support my LTR Visa application so needs to be "Out in the Open".  

 

they have to make bringing money in to support visas exempt surely, 900k for Thai Elite Visa already includes 7% VAT, they couldn't / shouldn't find another way to tax that at income tax rates as its the end of the road for these expensive visas. LTR does currently state that overseas income is not taxed, Elite vaguely said the same ... but that was based on 2023 rules and they could be using the "earned in previous years" rule to get away with that claim. I have already asked Elite for clarification, LTR need to so the same as far as 2024 is concerned

[Thaindrew]

5 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Specially for chinese buyers, the most significant, who have just started coming back.  Their tax treaty is only for companies and most of the money they bring in for money laundering anyway. 

they can only "export" $50K each per year so not enough for property purchase so a lot does come in via a company such as a lawyer.

[Foxx]

16 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

if the money was part of a "Taxed Pension" then I don't believe the Thai govt can take any as I would already have paid tax under the UK/Thai DTA (Double Taxation Agreement),

As has been said before, the DTA does not cover personal or state pensions - they are (at least theoretically) taxable in both countries, so yes, they could.

 

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Thaindrew said:

they have to make bringing money in to support visas exempt surely, 900k for Thai Elite Visa already includes 7% VAT, they couldn't / shouldn't find another way to tax that at income tax rates as its the end of the road for these expensive visas. LTR does currently state that overseas income is not taxed, Elite vaguely said the same ... but that was based on 2023 rules and they could be using the "earned in previous years" rule to get away with that claim. I have already asked Elite for clarification, LTR need to so the same as far as 2024 is concerned

The big difference is with the Elite Visa you are paying 900K for the Visa & so it's no longer your money (I believe you can purchase it without even bringing money into Thailand), but with the LTR you may need to bring in $250K "Investment" if your Pension is below <$80K pa & this money is still yours (e.g. you could leave it sat in a bank account if you liked).  

 

TBH I'm not concerned about it as if they were to start taxing expats who bring Investment money into Thailand it would kill foreign currency investment & as I say, there seems a simple enough way around it (Don't be Tax Resident in Thailand in the Year that you bring in the money). 

 

 

 

[Neeranam]

32 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Bitcoin etc... seem to be one of the main areas that the Thai govt is looking to start taxing gains from so is probably the last thing you should do in this scenario... But that aside, the point is to bring in >$250,000 investment to support my LTR Visa application so needs to be "Out in the Open".  

Ah, fair enough. 

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

The big difference is with the Elite Visa you are paying 900K for the Visa & so it's no longer your money (I believe you can purchase it without even bringing money into Thailand), but with the LTR you may need to bring in $250K "Investment" if your Pension is below <$80K pa & this money is still yours (e.g. you could leave it sat in a bank account if you liked).  

I can't see the benefit of getting one of these visas. Just leave 800k in a bank and pay 1900 baht a year, or pay the agents 15,000 baht a year. I know the latter is usually illegal, but nobody seems to care. 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Neeranam

[Thaindrew]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I can't see the benefit of getting one of these visas. Just leave 800k in a bank and pay 1900 baht a year, or pay the agents 15,000 baht a year. I know the latter is usually illegal, but nobody seems to care. 

 

thats ok if you can prove you have paid tax on that 800k yes going forward, else you bring in to Thailand and the new rules suggest it could be taxed if you cannot prove you paid tax on it or bring it from a tax haven. Many Elite Visa Holders have been working in tax havens and so can prove they have been assessed for tax but not necessarily paid tax. 

[Thaindrew]

19 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

The big difference is with the Elite Visa you are paying 900K for the Visa & so it's no longer your money (I believe you can purchase it without even bringing money into Thailand), but with the LTR you may need to bring in $250K "Investment" if your Pension is below <$80K pa & this money is still yours (e.g. you could leave it sat in a bank account if you liked).  

 

TBH I'm not concerned about it as if they were to start taxing expats who bring Investment money into Thailand it would kill foreign currency investment & as I say, there seems a simple enough way around it (Don't be Tax Resident in Thailand in the Year that you bring in the money). 

 

 

 

I am sure Thai Elite and LTR are scrambling to understand the impact on them and their existing members, and are grappling with the issue that there may be no new members if funds bought in to pay for or support these visas ends up taxed.

 

 

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Thaindrew said:

I am sure Thai Elite and LTR are scrambling to understand the impact on them and their existing members, and are grappling with the issue that there may be no new members if funds bought in to pay for or support these visas ends up taxed.

 

 

Yes, at the very least, those protentional Thai Visa Elite buyers should postpone purchase until they get a clearer picture. 

[pedro01]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Will start receiving my private pension(s) in Feb 2026 & the current plan is to take 8-10Million THB as a tax free lump sum and use it to buy a Condo/support my LTR Wealthy Pensioner application but if Thailand is going to take approx. 3.5Million Tax from this then obviously that won't be happening.

 

I wonder if I can do a Hotblack Desiato (https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Hotblack_Desiato) & spend 1 year Dead (to Thailand) to get around it.

 

Joking aside, as a single guy who loves to travel it wouldn't be hard for me to do a year or 2 where I spend < 180days in Thailand & bring the money in during that time. 

 

This is going to be the trick. That 8-10 million Baht is savings, not earnings. Taxing your savings when you bring them in will need to somehow be separated - making the whole thing a farce IMO

[Isaan sailor]

3 hours ago, Henryford said:

Exactly, if they tried it thousands of expats would be on the next plane out, with their 800k.

Interesting point.  If we bail on Thailand for tax purposes 180 days , could we send our gains to wives/girlfriends here in Thailand to avoid taxation?  So many questions—so little time.

[Neeranam]

19 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

On top of that, if more needed to be mentioned, the leeches want more money from us but are not prepared to pony-up anything in return. How about Anutin makes "residency" easier? How about some more rights in return? How about less discrimination on so many things? How about a less oppressive immigration department for the legit folks? How about longer visas for the workers you want to take more from?

General Anupong, the previous Minister, made things much easier for foreigners wanting to naturalize here. I was a teacher earning 40k a month and managed to do it in less than 3 years, as I am married to a Thai.

 

[redwood1]

Everybodys money stuation is different....The money comes from loads of different countries...That all have different taxing structures....

 

There is no way on Gods green earth they have any hope in a million years of sorting through the mess to figure out what money flows should or should not be taxed..

 

It just will NEVER NEVER happen.......Unless there is a hard tax on all incoming money with no exceptions including a lets say 25% tax on ATMs....

[Isaan sailor]

What about purchases made from our western bank credit cards, i.e. Visa/Mastercard?  How could they see and then tax those purchases?

[Ricardo]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

It's actually the other way round... if the money was part of a "Taxed Pension" then I don't believe the Thai govt can take any as I would already have paid tax under the UK/Thai DTA (Double Taxation Agreement), it's the fact that it is tax free in the UK that is concerning me. 

I believe that you're mistaken about that  ...  my UK Old-Age-Allowance definitely forms part of my taxable UK-arising income, or I wouldn't need to be making an annual-return to HMRC, and paying a trivial amount of UK-tax, every year.  My two minor private-pensions would not be sufficient to take me above the (currently frozen) Personal-Allowance.

 

Or by "Taxed Pension " do you mean something other-than the regular Old-Age-Allowance ?

[Thaindrew]

18 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

Interesting point.  If we bail on Thailand for tax purposes 180 days , could we send our gains to wives/girlfriends here in Thailand to avoid taxation?  So many questions—so little time.

"gifts" to spouse are listed by the RD as tax free for up to 20M Baht, not clear if thats also changing under the new rules or if that tax free to the sender and the receiver 

[circa02]

 

12 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

What about purchases made from our western bank credit cards, i.e. Visa/Mastercard?  How could they see and then tax those purchases?

That would actually be pretty easy, much of your personal data is shared with the scheme (Visa, Mastercard etc..) and they certainly have detailed flow data for transactions - there are various reasons for this, but you are not simply a routing code for the scheme, e.g. you can actually report your card lost directly with the scheme for example and they'll authenticate you with the data they hold on you (much less than your card issuing bank, but enough to verify you).  Even though your issuing bank will likely have no affiliation with Thailand and it's law, your scheme does, and it wouldn't take much legislation to force the scheme to share data sufficient to analyze those purchases for the above reasons. The scheme has to adhere with local laws and regulations to have a functioning payment network. We're not even talking palantir level of big data here, it would rather easy to analyze a few hundred GB of such data daily with only minimal sized data lakes and tooling, it would be trivial infact ... but TIT and they couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery, so its years out before scheme sharing data is a consideration in the subject of this topic imo.

 

In summary: easily possible, but TIT, won't happen for decades

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by circa02