Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Trippy]

17 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

I lived in a small Western Massachusetts town located near a major University, it was Quiet, clean air, clean water, beautiful hiking trails all over New England, Cape Code Bay not far away, and plenty of food choices, even Authentic Thai food! I regret the fact that I didn't stop my wife before she headed back to Thailand, she had to payback her 5 year Ph.D with her time on the job. We should have just paid the University back, and stayed in the USA, it would have been expensive, but worth it.

 

Instead, we live in Bangkok with people who want to kill us on the rode, sidewalks, crosswalks, etc. No police enforcement, no building code enforcement, no concern for safety, dirty air, dirty water, dirty and polluted land plots, corruption everywhere......paradise indeed!

 

15 minutes ago, bob smith said:

talk about setting the bar low.

 

if you think Thailand is the be all and end all then you need to expand your horizons.

The difference between me and you 2 gentlemen, is I'm single. 555

[Dogmatix]

7 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Well, let's hope that the UK Govt, and all other Govts, start reciprical arrangements for Thai funds, salaries, incomes and personal savings going into the UK and other countries. What's good for the goose.........................

In a way this is worse than introducing global taxation on all overseas sourced income whether remitted or not, which exists in most Western countries.  With global taxation income earned abroad would just become taxable from day 1.  In this case, income earned abroad 20 years ago can still be taxed in Thailand, if you need to remit it for living expenses or buy a condo or something.  And they can after you years after the remittance with demands for back tax, interest and penalties.  Will you have all records from years back to convince them exactly what was taxed under a DTA and when?

Edited September 19, 2023 by Dogmatix

[bob smith]

Just now, Trippy said:

The difference between me and you 2 gentlemen, is I'm single. 555

so am I. when I want to be.

[Dogmatix]

5 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Which ministry and which cabinet member is responsible for this?

I think you already know the answer: Srettha minster of finance and prime minister.

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, Trippy said:

 

The difference between me and you 2 gentlemen, is I'm single. 555

Touché ????

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, phetphet said:

But isn't there a rule that any income brought into Thailand more than 12 months after it was earned is no liable to taxation? Are you saying that is now being changed?

There is no change to that part of Section 41 of the Revenue Code.  They are just choosing to change the interpretation, so that "previous tax year" will now be deemed to mean "any previous tax year", rather than the "the previous tax year" which is clearly what the intent of the drafters was and how it has been interpreted by the RD for decades.

[John Drake]

16 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

An act of parliament to amend the Revenue Code could introduce global taxation for Thai residents which would clear up any confusion.  

 

The PT think tank has come up with hair brained schemes like the digital wallet for Srettha to implement that are not funded in the 2023-24 budget and Srettha refuses to say where the money is coming from.  Then they plan to subsidise mass transit in Bangkok at huge cost that was designed to attract private sector investment because the government couldn't afford to build them.  They know that they will ultimately have to raise VAT but before they bite the bullet they will scrabble around trying to raise tax from anywhere.

Prayuth looking better by the minute. I am absolutely serious. I've always maintained  in these topics that PTP could (and now will) come in and make things miserable for expatriates. 

[JackGats]

42 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

...

 

It has already been said in the article and repeated here on the forum:

 

'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

They could not make it plainer than that, that this has nothing to do with us and will have no impact on the vast majority of the expat community.

In that case what will happen to those hailing from a country that has a DTA with Thailand, but who have not been taxed in said country because they are de facto residents of Thailand owing to the time they spend in Thailand? I assume the mere existence of a DTA with Thailand would not get them off the hook. They would have to show taxation did occur.

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, John Drake said:

Prayuth looking better by the minute. I am absolutely serious. I've always maintained  in these topics that PTP could (and now will) come in and make things miserable for expatriates. 

That appears to be the case, and if they make Big Joke the new leader of the RTP, we might as well pack our bags.

[Tony M]

6 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

In a way this is worse than introducing global taxation on all overseas sourced income whether remitted or not, which exists in most Western countries.  With global taxation income earned abroad would just become taxable from day 1.  In this case, income earned abroad 20 years ago can still be taxed in Thailand, if you need to remit it for living expenses or buy a condo or something.  And they can after you years after the remittance with demands for back tax, interest and penalties.  Will you have all records from years back to convince them exactly what was taxed under a DTA and when?

Not a criticism, but I have no idea what you have just said. 

 

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Thailand and the UK have a reciprocal tax treaty ,

Below is a list of all the countries Thailand has a reciprocal tax treaty.

But the UK doesn't tax personal savings that are remitted to the UK, or funds to purcahse a house, etc do they  ?  Isn't that one of the "suggestions" in this proposal ?
?

[paul1804]

That doesnt sound like a very inviting scenario for new long term residents & retirees to me!!  

[freeworld]

5 minutes ago, JackGats said:

In that case what will happen to those hailing from a country that has a DTA with Thailand, but who have not been taxed in said country because they are de facto residents of Thailand owing to the time they spend in Thailand? I assume the mere existence of a DTA with Thailand would not get them off the hook. They would have to show taxation did occur.

If you are tax resident in Thailand and have not paid tax in the foreign jurisdiction because of the laws in that country then you will be subject to the tax laws in Thailand, provided the income will have been transferred to and received in a bank account in Thailand, the key here is income not just transferring savings.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by freeworld

[mokwit]

55 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

They could not make it plainer than that, that this has nothing to do with us and will have no impact on the vast majority of the expat community.

'taxed' You will likely have to prove that you have already been taxed.

51 minutes ago, HuaHinNew said:

For those from a country with a tax treaty, they will want official documentation from your home country's taxation department that all your OS funds being transferred to Thailand have been fully taxed in your home country. 

This.

[freeworld]

7 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Not a criticism, but I have no idea what you have just said. 

 

But the UK doesn't tax personal savings that are remitted to the UK, or funds to purcahse a house, etc do they  ?  Isn't that one of the "suggestions" in this proposal ?
?

No Thailand does not tax savings, only income. Of course there should be a trail which could show that it is savings.

[Darren8888]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

If people bother to check in the OP the list of countries that have a double-taxation agreement with Thailand, they will see that about 99% of all 'Westerners' in Thailand are covered by those treaty-status agreements. Which aren't about to change. So no sweat.

 

But it does raise an interesting question for many of us, a question which those who actually are informed on this might wish to address: Assuming that (as I understand) Thailand's income tax rate is way way lower than that in any 'Western' country, why not use the double-taxation agreement from the other end? ie pay income tax in Thailand and thereby avoid the much higher rate of income tax in your home country.

Not at all. What are you talking about? It is quite the opposite. Thailand personal income tax structure are much higher than western countries!! 
 

For example, US highest personal income federal tax rate is 37% for income above USD 570k for a single filer.

 

Thailand highest personal income tax rate is 35% for income above USD 122k!! That is a super low threshold for a meager annual income of only USD 122k a year. 

 

 

 

 

[freeworld]

13 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Prayuth looking better by the minute. I am absolutely serious. I've always maintained  in these topics that PTP could (and now will) come in and make things miserable for expatriates. 

Oh please, that is a little dramatic.

[Jenkins9039]

25 minutes ago, Geir Rasch said:

First, there is no 183 days rule. If you stay in Thailand 180 days during a calendar year, you are a tax resident of Thailand. 
You and I must live in different realyties because most norwegians I know want to pay tax to Thailand because taxes are much lower in Thailand. I’m talking about pensions. You wil save 60K bath to 200K bath a year, depending of your pension, by paying tax to Thailand. 
It is quite straight forward to pay tax to Thailand and reclaim tax back from Norway, so I do not see the hustle about this.
For me, average tax percent to Norway would be 25%. In Thailand it is below 10% on the pension I transfer to Thailand.

No one is disputing that, what people are disputing is the fact savings are being taxed when brought in.

 

I for example previously worked in a Tax Haven, there's no agreement with Thailand, now if i bring funds in i am looking at 35% plus VAT on expenditure, I probably spend on average 10-20x what the average expat spends (OAP drawing their pension, there's 10,000 people in similar shoes that bought into the Elite Visa because of the long-term stay and deferred fund remittance (tax free).

 

That's a LOT of money that won't be coming to Thailand in future, i myself, the wife, were looking at local nations for the next dividends starting 2025 (Cambodia/Laos for 5 months annually for a few years) as we wanted to have a better flow with household staff (children) and ease of return, Now we are looking at Penang.

 

I'd hazard a guess Thailand will loose just from our household 5m$ easily aggregate x years.

 

The wife pays tax on her businesses income (personal) and even declares and pays tax on the allowance for the staffing (nannies, maids) etc - Now the Thai Gov won't get a penny, as she said, it's ok, I won't have to pay this tax now, so she's content.

 

So som nom na. 

[cleopatra2]

19 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

In a way this is worse than introducing global taxation on all overseas sourced income whether remitted or not, which exists in most Western countries.  With global taxation income earned abroad would just become taxable from day 1.  In this case, income earned abroad 20 years ago can still be taxed in Thailand, if you need to remit it for living expenses or buy a condo or something.  And they can after you years after the remittance with demands for back tax, interest and penalties.  Will you have all records from years back to convince them exactly what was taxed under a DTA and when?

I think you misunderstand what the instruction is stating.

The  instruction is referring to Thai tax residents earning income from overseas in a work capacity or from property situated abroad. It is not refferinng to savings.

Any monies earned overseas whilst not being a Thai tax residents is not relevant.

[freeworld]

34 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Well, let's hope that the UK Govt, and all other Govts, start reciprical arrangements for Thai funds, salaries, incomes and personal savings going into the UK and other countries. What's good for the goose.........................

Most other countries, tax offices and banks are quite strict with income. Anyway there are no more secrets, all bank accounts over a certain value are reported to the tax offices in many countries now. Of course most countries cant police each and every person which is why the onus is on the individual to be responsible for declaring and reporting untaxed income where one resides and is tax resident. There exists a myriad of laws, fines and interest charges should one get caught not paying tax when it should have been due.

Edited September 19, 2023 by freeworld

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

That's great till you realise it could be rental income from property, or stock income, dividends etc income, any form of income, and that in some cases is tax free as a non resident (at home) so no tax double treaty as you don't pay as a non resident... then you bring to thailand and its taxable.

Yes, there will be some cases where income is legally taxable. 

 

Most retirement income (government pensions etc) will not be. 

 

Practically speaking, if transferring in savings (as opposed to having income directly remitted) I think it will be more trouble than it is worth for the Thai tax authorities to try to figure out if it was  taxable by the other country and they are unlikely to bother  in the case of retirees. 

 

You should closely read the Tax Agreement between your home country and Thailand.  Also note that there are several months to go before this comes into effect and it will pertain only to funds brought in after that date.  So for those who always leave 800k in a bank account for visa purposes and have that amount here already it won't matter where it originally came from. But it would be prudent to ensure that new funds coming in are from an exempt source as specified in Tax Agreement.

 

 

[mokwit]

23 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 , no more 90 days, money in the bank, TM30's, Re-Entry permits, etc. Just way less hassles, and we could all come and go from the USA whenever we want without being hassled by the likes of the Thai Mafia.

For me what made Thailand attractive is less and less, and more and more negatives. Like a version of Singapore where nothing works properly and nobody speaks English. Gone is the nutty flavoursome place that was Thailand in the '90's

 

As one year visa holders we are effectively living in a Police State. TM30 TM45, stopped in the street by Immigration, or them turning up at your house.

 

I will be leaving for other reasons but it is like a floodgate of relief bursting.

Edited September 19, 2023 by mokwit

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Which is?

If it was me and I really wanted to know then I would

1   do an internet search

2   look back in the thread

3   perhaps look at the sidebar for bdenner's post

4   look at scorecards post on this thread posted 2 hours ago

 

OTOH if I don't know something I would look it up, instead of being lazy and asking other people to do it for me.

[Moonlover]

12 minutes ago, mokwit said:

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

They could not make it plainer than that, that this has nothing to do with us and will have no impact on the vast majority of the expat community.

 

12 minutes ago, mokwit said:

'taxed' You will likely have to prove that you have already been taxed.

Well I for one could produce that proof in about 10 seconds, but I very much doubt that it will ever be necessary to do so.

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

Well I for one could produce that proof in about 10 seconds, but I very much doubt that it will ever be necessary to do so.

Yeah, what could go wrong with handing over your sensitive tax documents to such a secure and safe government like there is in Thailand?

[Bangkok Barry]

21 minutes ago, billd766 said:

If it was me and I really wanted to know then I would

1   do an internet search

2   look back in the thread

3   perhaps look at the sidebar for bdenner's post

4   look at scorecards post on this thread posted 2 hours ago

 

OTOH if I don't know something I would look it up, instead of being lazy and asking other people to do it for me.

Thank you for your comment.

1 Quicker to ask

2 Quicker to ask than read through 19 pages of comments

3 Quicker to ask

4 Quicker to ask

 

And my question was answered politely by @scorecard above. It was even useful and gave me the info I asked for, unlike your response.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Bangkok Barry

[RupertIII]

Today's update in the Thai Enquirer, seems not just us foreigners that are concerned about all this, in particular the lack of clarity surrounding it.

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50755/opinion-thailands-ambitious-plan-to-tax-incoming-funds-risks-falling-flat-due-to-lack-of-clarity/

[cleopatra2]

The issue is the OP is incorrect.

The OP states this includes savings . When if you actually read the notice/instruction it is only refferinng to income from work activities and property whilst being a Thai tax resident

[zombie nights]

If I changed from retirement visa to 5-year elite membership, how much do I need to pay ? Under the proposed new law would I then be exempt from income brought into Thailand?

[mokwit]

5 minutes ago, RupertIII said:

Today's update in the Thai Enquirer, seems not just us foreigners that are concerned about all this, in particular the lack of clarity surrounding it.

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50755/opinion-thailands-ambitious-plan-to-tax-incoming-funds-risks-falling-flat-due-to-lack-of-clarity/

'Prime Minister Srettha Thavasin to issue a statement, stressing the initiative’s aim to narrow the wealth gap.'

 

Buying popularity for themselves with other people's money.

[Jenkins9039]

6 minutes ago, zombie nights said:

If I changed from retirement visa to 5-year elite membership, how much do I need to pay ? Under the proposed new law would I then be exempt from income brought into Thailand?

No.