5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Succinct summary; to take Hamas as the most recent example, they have never wanted peace, or a two state solution, and on the 7th October they announced to the world that they never, ever, under any circumstances, want peace for the people whose best interests they are supposed to represent.

 

The people of Gaza will never have any chance of a peaceful existence while Hamas are their governing body, so Hamas must be removed from Gaza, and it looks as if Israel are the only ones prepared to remove them; because, looking at the wider view, despite every muslim / Islamic country in the world, and many non muslim countries, demanding that Israel instigate a cease fire, I can find few, well, none actually, of them demanding that Hamas cease fire and release the hostages they have taken.

 

Even the fools, and those in denial, now understand that Hamas are not just prepared to sacrifice the civilians of Gaza for the propaganda value of their ideology (the eradication of all jews) but that they are being supported by a much, much wider faction of the Arab world that are also prepared to see the civilians of Gaza used as fodder for the incitement of a worldwide uprising of islamists against the western world …….. cynic moi ?

 

..... good that you haven't given up hope ..... 

 

What Arab countries do you see as supporting Hamas, and how?

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not interested in your point scoring. I've made a post giving you some pointers as to why I'm not overly impressed by polls presented, and why I do not have blind faith in them the way you seem to. What you offer in response is more of the same, plus some dodging of issues and points raised.

 

I've addressed the same 'questions' you put up now on recent previous comments. As usual, you insist on pretending things weren't already discussed.

 

The Palestinians could have chosen many different ways, many different paths - what it comes down to is that both leadership and people assumed a rather passive stance. You want to claim they had no choice? There's no good reasoning for that unless one allows for things mentioned in my previous post. You're just doing the same old free pass thing.

 

The only way which you could support your view is by allowing some dissonance between their supposed pro-peace  stance, and a supposed sense that efforts would be futile. That would rob your argument of whatever little force it had, and ultimately go towards my original claim about not being ready and willing.

 

As for your remarks on oppression - you've read a couple of articles and you think you 'grasp' things? Seriously? You've no idea. Considering you can't discuss anything related beyond what you can pull from polls or a quick Goggle search, I'm not very impressed.

 

 

 

What can I say. You clearly don't grasp the impossibility of reaching out to a government that is actively working to displace you. A government tat offers nothing to encourage any such efforts.

And you can't help but make it personal by making allegations. Quite a sorry habit with you.

Just now, Morch said:

 

What Arab countries do you see as supporting Hamas, and how?

Errr Iran maybe.

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

What can I say. You clearly don't grasp the impossibility of reaching out to a government that is actively working to displace you. A government tat offers nothing to encourage any such efforts.

And you can't help but make it personal by making allegations. Quite a sorry habit with you.

Your becoming a Nuisence. Do you actually bring anything to the Table on this Thread.

10 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Errr Iran maybe.

Not an Arab country.

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What can I say. You clearly don't grasp the impossibility of reaching out to a government that is actively working to displace you. A government tat offers nothing to encourage any such efforts.

And you can't help but make it personal by making allegations. Quite a sorry habit with you.

 

I'm not the one routinely picking petty arguments with you - that's your thing. Whining about 'personal' is a tad disingenuous. Not allegations, just a good take on your posting style.

 

Indeed, you can't say anything. Not beyond the narrow scope of something you Googled, or some notion that you inject to the discussion as fact. Not even when your arguments go against themselves as this one has. You have hardly addressed anything I've posted, but simply deflected until the only thing left was some bogus virtue signaling. You can go on with this free pass thing, and at the same time claim the Palestinians are all for peace. It still doesn't add up. It still doesn't address issues raised in previous posts.

 

Same thing on almost each and every interaction. And not only with me.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What Arab countries do you see as supporting Hamas, and how?

All of them; most by repeated condemnation of Israel for responding to 7th October, and by making no condemnation of Hamas, and for taking and broadcasting Hamas press releases as fact to their populations …. and of course, financial and logistical support from Qatar and Iran … not really sure why you asked to be honest.

14 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Errr Iran maybe.

 

Iran is not an Arab country. But granted, they do support Hamas.

Others?

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

All of them; most by repeated condemnation of Israel for responding to 7th October, and by making no condemnation of Hamas, and for taking and broadcasting Hamas press releases as fact to their populations …. and of course, financial and logistical support from Qatar and Iran … not really sure why you asked to be honest.

That's number 2 showing he doesn't know what he's talking about.

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not the one routinely picking petty arguments with you - that's your thing. Whining about 'personal' is a tad disingenuous. Not allegations, just a good take on your posting style.

 

Indeed, you can't say anything. Not beyond the narrow scope of something you Googled, or some notion that you inject to the discussion as fact. Not even when your arguments go against themselves as this one has. You have hardly addressed anything I've posted, but simply deflected until the only thing left was some bogus virtue signaling. You can go on with this free pass thing, and at the same time claim the Palestinians are all for peace. It still doesn't add up. It still doesn't address issues raised in previous posts.

 

Same thing on almost each and every interaction. And not only with me.

 

 

 I'm not aware that my argument has gone against itself. Rather, what is repeatedly evident, is your reflexive both-sidesism.

24 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Im sure your mate Thorgal will slip in a link disproving it Chef. You not busy today with Sunday lunches.

I have minions to do my Sunday lunches, Thorgal isn't one of them as far as I know.

So you can't answer the question, how unusual.

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

All of them; most by repeated condemnation of Israel for responding to 7th October, and by making no condemnation of Hamas, and for taking and broadcasting Hamas press releases as fact to their populations …. and of course, financial and logistical support from Qatar and Iran … not really sure why you asked to be honest.

 

All of them? Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by some. Others kicked their people out. Most Arab countries having diplomatic relations with Israel are obviously not into Hamas ideology. That still leave some potential backers, sure - but not all.

 

No condemnation is not an endorsement. This is the ME, and there are different ways of doing things, different realities to contend with.

 

Take Jordan, for example. With some 70% of the population being Palestinian, it's quite obvious that having an empowered Hamas would be dangerous for the regime's stability, on the other hand, so would a strong condemnation. A bit of tightrope act, there. Or take Egypt - no love for Muslim Brotherhood or offshoots (as in Hamas), but still need to contend with some public sentiment. Also relations with Hamas ensure Egypt continue to play a major role in regional politics as mediator. Lose that, and Egypt's relevance gets shot. Again, complicated.

 

What Arab regimes do is play it safe - let the public vent against Israel, up to a point. Also serves to divert other criticism from regime itself as bonus. In effect, once things cool down, the situation returns to normal, more or less. Not all Arab media is pro-Hamas (notably Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,  UAE).

 

Qatar's support of Hamas is mostly diplomatic, the financial side more nuanced than that (and with Israel's blessing).

 

If it was up to most Arab rulers, Hamas would be gone tomorrow if there weren't any side effects or if they could be seen as not being complicit.

 

 

Heritage minister of Israel Amichai Eliyahu stated today that dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza Strip was "one of the possibilities”.

 

Netanyahu office issued a statement saying, “Israel and the IDF are operating in accordance with the highest standards of international law to avoid innocents”.

 

No kidding this was an official statement by the Prime minister of Israel, a state which kills a Palestinian child ever 10 minutes and have been committing daily war crimes for a month so far. Israel is a state with no history, only a criminal record.

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not the one routinely picking petty arguments with you - that's your thing. Whining about 'personal' is a tad disingenuous. Not allegations, just a good take on your posting style.

 

Indeed, you can't say anything. Not beyond the narrow scope of something you Googled, or some notion that you inject to the discussion as fact. Not even when your arguments go against themselves as this one has. You have hardly addressed anything I've posted, but simply deflected until the only thing left was some bogus virtue signaling. You can go on with this free pass thing, and at the same time claim the Palestinians are all for peace. It still doesn't add up. It still doesn't address issues raised in previous posts.

 

Same thing on almost each and every interaction. And not only with me.

 

 

Actually, the argument of mine that you never address is why woujld the Palestinians want to negotiate with a party that is actively dispossessing the? . That subjects you to an apartheid-like governance? The Palestinian Authority is already regarded widely as a collaborator with the Israelis. . As would any government be regarded which cooperates with its oppressors. Perhaps unfairly, but inevitably.

10 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 I'm not aware that my argument has gone against itself. Rather, what is repeatedly evident, is your reflexive both-sidesism.

 

I'm not responsible for the many things you're not aware of.

Just now, Morch said:

 

I'm not responsible for the many things you're not aware of.

Nice wisecrack. So what?

2 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Heritage minister of Israel Amichai Eliyahu stated today that dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza Strip was "one of the possibilities”.

 

Netanyahu office issued a statement saying, “Israel and the IDF are operating in accordance with the highest standards of international law to avoid innocents”.

 

No kidding this was an official statement by the Prime minister of Israel, a state which kills a Palestinian child ever 10 minutes and have been committing daily war crimes for a month so far. Israel is a state with no history, only a criminal record.

 

Guess you didn't bother with the link because it would put things in a different light.

 

Already mentioned here:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1308598-israel-is-at-war/page/273/#comment-18477456

 

And here:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1308598-israel-is-at-war/page/273/#comment-18477494

 

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, the argument of mine that you never address is why woujld the Palestinians want to negotiate with a party that is actively dispossessing the? . That subjects you to an apartheid-like governance? The Palestinian Authority is already regarded widely as a collaborator with the Israelis. . As would any government be regarded which cooperates with its oppressors. Perhaps unfairly, but inevitably.

 

Not that I haven't addressed this before, of course - but why do you expect your arguments and points to be addressed when you ignore mine?

 

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not that I haven't addressed this before, of course - but why do you expect your arguments and points to be addressed when you ignore mine?

 

But this point goes to the heart of all your entire argument. You repeatedly claim that the blame should be shared. But clearly the onus is on the Israelis. Of course, given that the Israelis have created 600,000 more or less facts on the ground, there's precious little hope of that happening.

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But this point goes to the heart of all your entire argument. You repeatedly claim that the blame should be shared. But clearly the onus is on the Israelis. Of course, given that the Israelis have created 600,000 more or less facts on the ground, there's precious little hope of that happening.

 

I will ask you again, why do you expect me to address your points and questions when you disregard mine?

 

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

I will ask you again, why do you expect me to address your points and questions when you disregard mine?

 

But I have addressed them. They don't need to be answered in detail because they're all based on the belief that there is a shared responsibility to negotiate on the part of the Palestinians and Israelis. As I repeatedly have pointed out and to no avail, it should be up to the Israelis to make the first move. And since they have given no indication that they would back from of their settlement policies, the apartheidlike laws, and the economic discrimination, why would the Palestinians negotiate?

35 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Heritage minister of Israel Amichai Eliyahu stated today that dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza Strip was "one of the possibilities”.

 

Netanyahu office issued a statement saying, “Israel and the IDF are operating in accordance with the highest standards of international law to avoid innocents”.

 

No kidding this was an official statement by the Prime minister of Israel, a state which kills a Palestinian child ever 10 minutes and have been committing daily war crimes for a month so far. Israel is a state with no history, only a criminal record.

Damn. I  Didnt know the outback was so full of Jew haters. Do you get upset when you see statues of Sir Jonh Monash?

Your not worth responding to chef bye.

50 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Heritage minister of Israel Amichai Eliyahu stated today that dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza Strip was "one of the possibilities”.

 

Netanyahu office issued a statement saying, “Israel and the IDF are operating in accordance with the highest standards of international law to avoid innocents”.

 

No kidding this was an official statement by the Prime minister of Israel, a state which kills a Palestinian child ever 10 minutes and have been committing daily war crimes for a month so far. Israel is a state with no history, only a criminal record.

Might kill a few horses Danny and Barbacue them at the same time.

40 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But this point goes to the heart of all your entire argument. You repeatedly claim that the blame should be shared. But clearly the onus is on the Israelis. Of course, given that the Israelis have created 600,000 more or less facts on the ground, there's precious little hope of that happening.

Do you know why conflict began placeholder? you seem to be ignoring it.

A nuanced view is necessary.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/04/obama-all-of-us-are-complicit-00125395

The administrations of America and Israel are totally insane.

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Even if what you are reporting is the gospel truth, are you seriously supporting the claim that Hamas didn't murder and rape noncombatant Israelis (and some others) including children?

I somehow skipped the part where you claimed that most Israelis were killed by the IDF? Your leap from maybe a few to most is repugnant. Amnesty International, a thorn in the side of the Israelis govt, has strongly condemned what Hamas has done.

6 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Vile post, disturbed poster, needs removing! 

He will do what he normally does Bob. jumps in causes trouble then disappears once he has caused damage and hides till next time then he will pop up again.

10 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Over 60 prisoners of war have been killed so far by Israeli airstrikes in Gaza. Israel objects to any prisoner swap and instead keeps demanding that all prisoners be released without any condition.

 

Hamas offered to release all foreign prisoners and Israeli civilians, but Israel has refused so far to facilitate any temporary cease fire to locate and release those prisoners.

 

 

Source please.