Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

 

How about some examples? 

Law enforcement generally has a rule regarding collateral damage, the rule is zero.

 

In a conflict like this one, I think it’s difficult to argue you are targeting the terrorists when you kill orders of magnitude larger of innocent civilians.

 

I can’t give a number but killing more innocent civilians than terrorists rings alarm bells with me.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

it is wrong to conjoin a terrorist organisation (Hamas) with innocent Palestinian people.

 

Suppose Hamas had disappeared and were hiding in Pattaya, would that make it ok to attack Pattaya and kill 5,000 innocent Thais & Farangs in the hope of killing Hamas?  There is no difference, what Hamas has done would not give justification to kill Pattaya residents.

 

I am talking about Israel and innocent Gazan citizens, what does that have to with Hamas & Israel being at odds?  Who has the right to bring innocent 3rd parties into the conflict and massacre them in their thousands?

 

Let’s consider scale, suppose Israel dropped a nuke on Gaza, all Hamas would be killed, plus a couple of million innocent civilians.  The point I am trying to make is scale is irrelevant, it’s either ok or it isn’t.  Doing a little bit doesn’t make it ok.

Is Israel attacking Quatar where the Palestinian's hamas leaders are? No. If Palestinian's hamas fled to Pattaya, Israel would do nothing.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

I am not conjoining a terrorist organisation (Hamas) with innocent Palestinian people, Hamas is the one doing that, they are the ones who imbedded themselves in residential areas and buildings. They are the ones who put their rocket launchers next to schools, hospitals, UN Buildings, churches and mosques, once you start to realize that then you may actually start to realize what choices the IDF have. Besides which I have already given a solution to stop the war which you ignored.

You could use exactly the same argument with the IRA and Irish and blame the Irish people, the same way, sorry but that does not wash with me.

[Nick Carter icp]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The difference is intent and scale.

 

 

  460 000 Iraqis died in the Iraq 2003 war 

25 000 Rohingya died in Burma

1 000 000 died in Vietnam 

Gaza is just getting started 

[transam]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

Law enforcement generally has a rule regarding collateral damage, the rule is zero.

 

In a conflict like this one, I think it’s difficult to argue you are targeting the terrorists when you kill orders of magnitude larger of innocent civilians.

 

I can’t give a number but killing more innocent civilians than terrorists rings alarm bells with me.

What happened to finish the aggression of Germany and Japan regarding civilians, and why should the aggression of the Gaza rulers aggression be treated any different........?

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Law enforcement generally has a rule regarding collateral damage, the rule is zero.

 

In a conflict like this one, I think it’s difficult to argue you are targeting the terrorists when you kill orders of magnitude larger of innocent civilians.

 

I can’t give a number but killing more innocent civilians than terrorists rings alarm bells with me.

That's not an example, it's just another weak dodge. 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

You could use exactly the same argument with the IRA and Irish and blame the Irish people, the same way, sorry but that does not wash with me.

 

You need a shower then, your comparison with the IRA is pure deflection.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You could use exactly the same argument with the IRA and Irish and blame the Irish people, the same way, sorry but that does not wash with me.

That that civilians die as collateral damage is not blaming civilians. The blame goer to those using them. 

[JBChiangRai]

57 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

No I'm missing no point, you are. Hamas took over 200 hostages, there's a simple way they could end this without the need for so much destruction. Really easy, release them. Then once they are released those who committed the massacres need to surrender to Israel. The war stops and negotiations start on dismantling the rocket launchers etc

 

Please let me know if you have any better solutions?

 

 

You are still talking as if Gaza=Hamas

It doesn’t.

 

We faced exactly the same thing in Northern Ireland.  The IRA is not the Irish.  They hid amongst the population and continued their terrorist attacks.

 

Are you saying we should have gone in and massacred thousands of innocent Irish in order to rid ourselves of them?

 

Please answer this what is the difference between these 2 conflicts?  I suggest nothing.

 

The solution cannot be to attack innocent parties in order to achieve your aim. That is a war crime.

 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

That that civilians die as collateral damage is not blaming civilians. The blame goer to those using them. 

Under international law, you are wrong.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

You are still talking as if Gaza=Hamas

It doesn’t.

 

We faced exactly the same thing in Northern Ireland.  The IRA is not the Irish.  They hid amongst the population and continued their terrorist attacks.

 

Are you saying we should have gone in and massacred thousands of innocent Irish in order to rid ourselves of them?

 

Please answer this what is the difference between these 2 conflicts?  I suggest nothing.

 

The solution cannot be to attack innocent parties in order to achieve your aim. That is a war crime.

 

 

Back on topic, a solution is right here, direct from the IDF

 

A ground operation in the Gaza Strip will be cancelled if Hamas releases all hostages and surrenders implicitly, Jonathan Conricus, Israel Defence Forces (IDF) International Spokesperson, has said.

 

Once that is carried out then long term peace plans can be arranged, Israel has laready said they want nothing to do with Gaza when this is over.

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

What happened to finish the aggression of Germany and Japan regarding civilians, and why should the aggression of the Gaza rulers aggression be treated any different........?

It isn’t.  

[JBChiangRai]

13 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is Israel attacking Quatar where the Palestinian's hamas leaders are? No. If Palestinian's hamas fled to Pattaya, Israel would do nothing.

Again you are conjoining a terrorist organization with a people.

 

There are thousands of Palestinians who do not support Hamas.  Unfortunately, they are dying.

[Neeranam]

This war has nothing to do with them. Biden has his eyes on the oil in the Middle East. 

Similar to Bush and Blair, when they made up stories about Weapons of Mass Destruction. 

Shame on you Biden.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

Back on topic, a solution is right here, direct from the IDF

 

A ground operation in the Gaza Strip will be cancelled if Hamas releases all hostages and surrenders implicitly, Jonathan Conricus, Israel Defence Forces (IDF) International Spokesperson, has said.

 

Once that is carried out then long term peace plans can be arranged, Israel has laready said they want nothing to do with Gaza when this is over.

And I am sure lots of Palestinians would support that too.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

And I am sure lots of Palestinians would support that too.

 

Well that was my solution 3 posts ago and you ignored it. It stops the war and negotiations for long term peace commence. So your rantings that the Hamas massacres and adductions were irrelevant are all proven nonsense

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

Well that was my solution 3 posts ago and you ignored it. It stops the war and negotiations for long term peace commence. So your rantings that the Hamas massacres and adductions were irrelevant are all proven nonsense

Nonsense.

 

I accept your solution would work, but it is outside of the control of the innocent civilian people.

 

And saying A will stop killing C if B does something, is not right.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

Nonsense.

 

I accept your solution would work, but it is outside of the control of the innocent civilian people.

 

And saying A will stop killing C if B does something, is not right.

 

 

What's nonsense, a solution that works, you've lost the plot completely. Its a solution from IDF anyway

[Thorgal]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Nonsense.

 

I accept your solution would work, but it is outside of the control of the innocent civilian people.

 

And saying A will stop killing C if B does something, is not right.

 

 

Leaflets are dropped on Gaza telling people that they have to evacuate the area or they will be bombed.

 

The leaflet says also : If they remain they will be seen as combatants and part of Hamas.

 

Looks like we have a leak here on AN.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Thorgal

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

 

What's nonsense, a solution that works, you've lost the plot completely. Its a solution from IDF anyway

It’s like saying if Germany buys gas from Russia they will stop bombing Ukraine.

 

What a terrorist organisation is doing cannot be combatted by massacring thousands of innocents.

 

Hamas giving up their hostages is outside the ability of the innocent people being massacred.  It’s wrong for Israel to use this as a lever.

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Nonsense.

 

I accept your solution would work, but it is outside of the control of the innocent civilian people.

 

And saying A will stop killing C if B does something, is not right.

 

 

  Those innocent Palestinians voted Hamas into power, so they are responsible for Hamas actions and if the public oppose Hamas , then why don't they take action to get them out of power ?

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Those innocent Palestinians voted Hamas into power, so they are responsible for Hamas actions and if the public oppose Hamas , then why don't they take action to get them out of power ?

That is a very valid point, we could say the same about Putin and Russia

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’s like saying if Germany buys gas from Russia they will stop bombing Ukraine.

 

What a terrorist organisation is doing cannot be combatted by massacring thousands of innocents.

 

Hamas giving up their hostages is outside the ability of the innocent people being massacred.  It’s wrong for Israel to use this as a lever.

OMG here we go again, forget Germany, IRA etc.

 

Hamas deliberately murdered innocents civilians, 1,400 of them what are you talking about!! Of course asking for the release of hostages is justified. Honestly you should take a long re think on what your posting. Its shameful.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Again you are conjoining a terrorist organization with a people.

 

There are thousands of Palestinians who do not support Hamas.  Unfortunately, they are dying.

Again, you are deflecting. hamas, or the Palestinian branch of the Muslim brotherhood, was elected by a majority of Palestinians. The US (which I assume you love) does not call it a terrorist organization. 

 

Yes, there are thousands out of millions of Palestinian that do not support hamas, but a large percentage of them do. 

 

Let the people that do not support hamas follow Israel's instruction and flee the areas being bombed. 

[RanongCat]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

That is a very valid point, we could say the same about Putin and Russia

Except that the  last election in Gaza was in 2006 and  any valid  attempts to  try again have been thwarted by "unrest". The simplistic  idea that Hamas rules by popularity and not by intimidation is ignored for the convenience of enduring "blame" on impoverished Gaza Palestinians.

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’s like saying if Germany buys gas from Russia they will stop bombing Ukraine.

 

What a terrorist organisation is doing cannot be combatted by massacring thousands of innocents.

 

Hamas giving up their hostages is outside the ability of the innocent people being massacred.  It’s wrong for Israel to use this as a lever.

 

   Could we just stay in one place ?we've gone to Ireland and the U.K and the IRA , Palestinians in Pattaya , Germany buying gas from Russia and Russians disposing of Putin .

    

   

[RanongCat]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

OMG here we go again, forget Germany, IRA etc.

 

Hamas deliberately murdered innocents civilians, 1,400 of them what are you talking about!! Of course asking for the release of hostages is justified. Honestly you should take a long re think on what your posting. Its shameful.

Whoa !  What is the  everlasting cry  for "Jewish" justice and the objection to genocidal motive and  from where and what  did it originate in  "modern" times?

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Except that the  last election in Gaza was in 2006 and  any valid  attempts to  try again have been thwarted by "unrest". The simplistic  idea that Hamas rules by popularity and not by intimidation is ignored for the convenience of enduring "blame" on impoverished Gaza Palestinians.

All the more reason for hamas to be eradicated, yes? 

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

OMG here we go again, forget Germany, IRA etc.

 

Hamas deliberately murdered innocents civilians, 1,400 of them what are you talking about!! Of course asking for the release of hostages is justified. Honestly you should take a long re think on what your posting. Its shameful.

You are spouting rubbish.

 

I absolutely condemn what Hamas has done, I have made it very clear here. 
 

My position is targeting the innocent civilians is wrong and looks more like revenge than a plan balanced with proper objectives and calculated acceptable collateral damage.

 

Nothing I have said condones Hamas, nothing I have said condones Israel’s response.  What’s shameful is you trying to imply I somehow support what Hamas has done in Israel.  It’s clear I don’t.

 

It’s also clear that nothing I say is going to change your view that thousands of innocent Palestinians being massacred is AOK, and nothing you can say will make me believe this massacre is justified.

 

I am going to leave it at that.

 

 

 

[RanongCat]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

All the more reason for hamas to be eradicated, yes? 

I have no objection to the removal of terrorist control of a population that has been deprived of the will to resist persistent intimidation from all sides.

I do have objection to the mass murder of same population excused by argument of no alternative.

There is this insidious false projection of polarized ideology which not just implies that any objection to IDF tactics  which criminally contravene International conventions is "proof" of  support for Hamas.

That mindset may assist the more base ideology of  Islamaphobes but is a negative to the humanitarian perspectives same would expect if applied to self  identity.