Factchecking 21 misleading myths about electric vehicles

[vinny41]

CP Group owners of 7-Eleven, Lotus Stores and Makro are working with Toyota to  develop  hydrogen-powered delivery trucks using chicken waste and food waste

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Toyota-to-make-hydrogen-out-of-waste-from-Thailand-s-CP-others

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Why ?

Who doesn't like saving money, while driving better performing vehicles.   We're just trying to enlighten the anti EV'ers, when they comment their BS on EV threads.

I suspect there will be calls for speed limit controls to be installed on EV's to reduce crashes like this one

0-100km atto3 7.8 seconds 0-100km byd seal 3.8 seconds

https://thephuketexpress.com/2023/11/05/fatal-collision-in-phuket-two-foreigners-dead-one-injured-after-car-driver-crashes-into-motorcycle/

[Bandersnatch]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

In which case he should have not have simply copied and pasted he should have done a proper job

 

You are going to have to explain how I could have done a more proper job of listing "Questions covered in the article" than "simply copied and pasted"

 

maybe I could have changed a few questions to ones that weren't covered by the article?

[impulse]

In an equally impartial study of EV economics, the Texas Public Policy Foundation estimates that driving an EV costs the same as paying $17.33 per gallon for an ICE car.  That includes the cost of gub'ment subsidies, purchase, charging stations, electricity, and a myriad of other hidden costs.

 

Adding the costs of the subsidies to the true cost of fueling an EV would equate to an EV owner paying $17.33 per gallon of gasoline. And these estimates do not include the hundreds of billions more in subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act (2022) for various aspects of the EV supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturing.

 

https://www.texaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-TrueCostofEVs-BennettIsaac.pdf

 

Which one's true?  Hard to tell...

 

Edit: And even if ya don't own one, you'll be paying for it...

 

• Home and public charging stations used by EVs put a significant strain on the electric grid, resulting in an average of $11,833 in socialized costs per EV over 10 years, which are shouldered by utility ratepayers and taxpayers.
• Direct state and federal subsidies for EVs average $8,984 per vehicle over 10 years.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by impulse

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, sirineou said:

That's because you are factoring in legacy costs.  New technologies about producing storing transporting and accessing Hydrogen are developed every day. Then you have economies of scale, buch like battery prices are coming down.

Then you have the abundance of Hydrogen as opposed to some of the mineral necessary for batteries, 

I remember reading some place that GM is abandoning it's focus on BEV and is pivoting it's focus on Hydrogen , There is a reason why two of the top 3 car manufactures (GM and Toyota)  are betting on Hydrogen. I think they know a bit about the car bossiness. 

And let's not downplay the weight problem. It is a problem on personal vehicles as it requires energy to  change to accelerate and decelerate a body , Sure some is recovered through regenerative braking but from what studies I have read  it is between 60-70%. At best a 30% los is significant IMO. 

Remember FCEVs use regenerative braking also. 

But that's for personal vehicles. 

We still have other transportation modes, How about Airplanes? wait is a significant factor in those, and how about trucks and payload? Over the road trucks have an 80,000 lb gross weight, 

So are we going to have two  economies? one for personal vehicles and one for other wight sensitive modes of transportation ?

IMO (and I have been wrong in the past so why cant I be wrong now)  BEVs are a stop gap solution because some of the electrical grid infustracture is already in place, until and if, the Hydrogen economy gets going. 

And from a geopolitical point of view. The Chinese right now own the BEV industry, how about a check , and perhaps checkmate by pivoting to an already supperior technology? Think about that. 

I am sure if an idiot like me has thought of it, you can bet some of the smart players in DC , Tokyo and Berlin have thought about it.  

 

 

 

I am factoring in the most efficient method of producing hydrogen today, AFAIK there is no miracle production method around the corner.  1000 Joules of electrical energy electrolysing Hydrogen produces Hydrogen with an energy content of 300 Joules.  You can't achieve significantly better because a lt of that energy goes into producing Oxygen at the same time.

 

The Mary Barra CEO of GM said in July this year that they intend to have their entire range EV only in the next 12 years and "We're still the only, um, full-line manufacturer with all our brands that have made that commitment.”

 

I agree that we may see H2 Fuel Cell vehicles, they are likely to be cheaper because they will be less desirable because they will cost 300% more per kilometer on fuel.

 

 

[KhunLA]

25 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I suspect there will be calls for speed limit controls to be installed on EV's to reduce crashes like this one

0-100km atto3 7.8 seconds 0-100km byd seal 3.8 seconds

https://thephuketexpress.com/2023/11/05/fatal-collision-in-phuket-two-foreigners-dead-one-injured-after-car-driver-crashes-into-motorcycle/

Any car could be going that fast, when striking the MB.  0-100 had nothing to do with it.

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Any car could be going that fast, when striking the MB.  0-100 had nothing to do with it.

Axa insurance doesn't agree with you

The main cause of traffic accidents with electric vehicles is the inappropriate driving behaviour of the drivers. Michael Pfäffli, head of accidents and prevention at Axa, explains: "We have seen in our statistics that drivers of electric vehicles cause 50 percent more collisions than cars with internal combustion engines. Drivers of powerful electric cars in particular cause twice as many accidents as with standard cars."

https://www.brusselstimes.com/287315/electric-cars-involved-in-more-accidents-than-regular-vehicles-study-shows

Once the body bag count increases dramatically you should expect laws to be implemented to restrict the 0-100km acceleration to be limited to a reasonable figure in the same way that there are speed limiters applied to the top speed of most vehicles 

[Gweiloman]

6 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

 

Neither can that of the USA. Probably in many other countries.🤔

Err… China?

[KhunLA]

25 minutes ago, impulse said:

In an equally impartial study of EV economics, the Texas Public Policy Foundation estimates that driving an EV costs the same as paying $17.33 per gallon for an ICE car.  That includes the cost of gub'ment subsidies, purchase, charging stations, electricity, and a myriad of other hidden costs.

 

Adding the costs of the subsidies to the true cost of fueling an EV would equate to an EV owner paying $17.33 per gallon of gasoline. And these estimates do not include the hundreds of billions more in subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act (2022) for various aspects of the EV supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturing.

 

https://www.texaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-TrueCostofEVs-BennettIsaac.pdf

 

Which one's true?  Hard to tell...

 

Edit: And even if ya don't own one, you'll be paying for it...

 

• Home and public charging stations used by EVs put a significant strain on the electric grid, resulting in an average of $11,833 in socialized costs per EV over 10 years, which are shouldered by utility ratepayers and taxpayers.
• Direct state and federal subsidies for EVs average $8,984 per vehicle over 10 years.

 

I don't know about all that, but if my 20k kms last year were all local, I would have saved ฿54k instead of ฿47.8k baht, since O&A for some 30 days.

 

If the 20k kms were local and had to charge with the grid, I still would have saved ฿40k +/-

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Axa insurance doesn't agree with you

The main cause of traffic accidents with electric vehicles is the inappropriate driving behaviour of the drivers. Michael Pfäffli, head of accidents and prevention at Axa, explains: "We have seen in our statistics that drivers of electric vehicles cause 50 percent more collisions than cars with internal combustion engines. Drivers of powerful electric cars in particular cause twice as many accidents as with standard cars."

https://www.brusselstimes.com/287315/electric-cars-involved-in-more-accidents-than-regular-vehicles-study-shows

Once the body bag count increases dramatically you should expect laws to be implemented to restrict the 0-100km acceleration to be limited to a reasonable figure in the same way that there are speed limiters applied to the top speed of most vehicles 

 

I doubt they will ever restrict acceleration, if they did, they would have to do it Lambo's , Ferrari's etc, or do you allow rich people to have a different law?

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Axa insurance doesn't agree with you

The main cause of traffic accidents with electric vehicles is the inappropriate driving behaviour of the drivers. Michael Pfäffli, head of accidents and prevention at Axa, explains: "We have seen in our statistics that drivers of electric vehicles cause 50 percent more collisions than cars with internal combustion engines. Drivers of powerful electric cars in particular cause twice as many accidents as with standard cars."

https://www.brusselstimes.com/287315/electric-cars-involved-in-more-accidents-than-regular-vehicles-study-shows

Once the body bag count increases dramatically you should expect laws to be implemented to restrict the 0-100km acceleration to be limited to a reasonable figure in the same way that there are speed limiters applied to the top speed of most vehicles 

Unless having the accident the very first few times driving their EV, can't see how it's the EV's fault, if at ever.   The operator of any vehicle, is the problem.

 

From the link ... nuff said:

"The high number of accidents has actually nothing to do with the technology, but everything to do with the driving behaviour of the drivers."

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

I have read that in some countries EV charging at home has to be registered to regulate the number of home charging in a particular sub station of the Grid.  With the state of the electric grid in Thailand I can see how such wide adoption of EV's charging at home could become a problem.

IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time .  

 

I have read that in some countries EV charging at home has to be registered to regulate the number of home charging in a particular sub station of the Grid.  With the state of the electric grid in Thailand I can see how such wide adoption of EV's charging at home could become a problem.

Really? Could you kindly provide a link? Would be interesting to know which countries and if your statement is in fact based on facts or propaganda.

 

IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time .  
As you don’t own an EV, you can be forgiven for stating another common myth of anti-EVers. As Bandersnatch pointed out, those with TOU meters will only plug in after 10 pm. But in any case, by the time most people get home from work, a lot of industries and corporations would have stopped work so the actual demand on the national grid would be significantly less than during the day. Unlike in many western countries, I would wager that electricity consumption habits in Thailand is very different. No boiling the kettle for a cup of tea, cooking generally done with gas instead of electricity, eating out etc etc

 

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Unless having the accident the very first few times driving their EV, can't see how it's the EV's fault, if at ever.   The operator of any vehicle, is the problem.

 

From the link ... nuff said:

"The high number of accidents has actually nothing to do with the technology, but everything to do with the driving behaviour of the drivers."

And that is why there is top speed limiter built in to most cars and you will see similar technology applied to limit the acceleration speed on EV's

[JBChiangRai]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

I have read that in some countries EV charging at home has to be registered to regulate the number of home charging in a particular sub station of the Grid.  With the state of the electric grid in Thailand I can see how such wide adoption of EV's charging at home could become a problem.

IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time .  

 

The UK wants people to install EV Chargers at home that are linked to their WiFi.

 

When you come home you plug your car in, the National Grid will turn your charger on when it suits them and in return will charge your car cheaper than if you didn't have a WiFi enabled charger or chose to bypass, your car will still be fully charged in the morning, they guarantee that.

 

I think this is what you are referring to.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And that is why there is top speed limiter built in to most cars and you will see similar technology applied to limit the acceleration speed on EV's

 

 Only EV's what about wealthy owners of supercars?

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And that is why there is top speed limiter built in to most cars and you will see similar technology applied to limit the acceleration speed on EV's

apparently the 'top speed limiters' are still faster than the speed limit.  Basically useless.  And I doubt most accidents are near top speeds anyway.

 

That's why there are speed limit laws.  Speeding & too fast for conditions, would think account for almost all accidents, direct or indirectly.

 

Very few people drive the sped limit, 30-60-90.  You'll never fix stupid.  

 

I only do 90 kph as top speed most of the time anyway in TH.  Except on rare occasions if needing to pass at higher speed, or in one of those very few 120 kph sections of highway, and only do 100-110, then.   

 

Few roads are built for 120 kph here, let alone any faster.

Edited November 6, 2023 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 Only EV's what about wealthy owners of supercars?

I am sure when the body bag increases they will look at all cars and if it turns out the increase of the body bag count is due to the  acceleration speed on EV's then the will apply the rules to EV's

I suspect the number of ICE vehicles on the road that are capable of 0-100km in 3.8 seconds is very tiny 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by vinny41
add

[liddelljohn]

My criticism and anti EV stance is not political,,,,  Its based on  Knowledge , Science and engineering , and what I have seen in real life .

[Bandersnatch]

2 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

My criticism and anti EV stance is not political,,,,  Its based on  Knowledge , Science and engineering , and what I have seen in real life .

I charge my EVs from the solar on my house. One of my EVs has bi-directional charging so it’s basically a battery on wheels. I haven’t drawn any power from PEA since September 2022.

 

Go on with your “criticism and anti EV stance based on  Knowledge , Science and engineering”

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I am sure when the body bag increases they will look at all cars and if it turns out the increase of the body bag count is due to the  acceleration speed on EV's then the will apply the rules to EV's

I suspect the number of ICE vehicles on the road that are capable of 0-100km in 3.8 seconds is very tiny 

 

 

Politically impossible.

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

My criticism and anti EV stance is not political,,,,  Its based on  Knowledge , Science and engineering , and what I have seen in real life .

And that criticism would be ?  Never mind, I stopped looking after reading these 3 of your comments below.   You sure about that;  Knowledge, science & engineering ... that's funny.

 

... "When the battery explodes  like a 500kg bomb "... 😂

 

... "Battery tech is messy, dangerous , polluting , corrupt and very very limited lifespan,and range ,, its all a big scam like dieselgate ..."

 

... "Why would anyone buy ANY electric car , they are all hyped up expensive polluting rubbish and potential time bombs , short life span , cant be repaired , a small dent or accident is a write off if any damage to any part of battery pack,  short range, very polluting to mine lithium , they are at best a short term solution,"

 

Last one 'Posted April 3' ... so you weren't referring to old tech.

Edited November 6, 2023 by KhunLA

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I was telling you because you posted "IMO most people would want to plug in and start charging as soon as they get home from work which would place an additional load to peak electric consumption time"

 

I was explaining why your comment was wrong - don't get upset about it 

IMO most people would want their ride juiced up and ready to go, some might wait until later when the price is lower, but if everyone waited until later to charge wont those be higher demand hours and wont the electric companies charge accordingly? 

[sirineou]

31 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

your car will still be fully charged in the morning, they guarantee that.

But not if you need it earlier. 

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Politically impossible.

It will happen in the same way that when the internet was launched there was no rules or regulations similar to a day in dodge dodge city

it could be mitigated or delayed if the automotive manufacturers and insurance companies  built into the price and made it compulsory that all drives had to attend an  electric vehicle training course to understand that Driving style differs from ICE to electric vehicles

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

But not if you need it earlier. 

 

Then you choose to pay the normal instead of reduced tariff.

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It will happen in the same way that when the internet was launched there was no rules or regulations similar to a day in dodge dodge city

it could be mitigated or delayed if the automotive manufacturers and insurance companies  built into the price and made it compulsory that all drives had to attend an  electric vehicle training course to understand that Driving style differs from ICE to electric vehicles

 

In 1 stroke you would destroy BMW M division, Mercedes AMG division, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, Porsche, Ferrari, Koenigseg, Rimac, Bugatti, and dozens more - it could never happen.

[sirineou]

44 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Really? Could you kindly provide a link? Would be interesting to know which countries and if your statement is in fact based on facts or propaganda

As JBChiangRai posted two posts below yours, The UK. In the US you need a permit,  

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

As JBChiangRai posted two posts below yours, The UK. In the US you need a permit,  

 

I said nothing about being regulated, my post was about cheaper charging by letting the electric company decide when to turn on your charger.

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

In 1 stroke you would destroy BMW M division, Mercedes AMG division, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, Porsche, Ferrari, Koenigseg, Rimac, Bugatti, and dozens more - it could never happen.

It will happen and it is already being discussed in Media outlets and no doubt some Government agencies

Zero to Deadly: How More Powerful Cars Endanger Lives

With cars accelerating more quickly, drivers have less time to react and can pose more danger to pedestrians.

Yes the auto industry is likely to resist regulation

Here there talking about  technology such as geofencing that reduces vehicle speeds in certain zones can limit the negative impact of faster acceleration

https://www.planetizen.com/news/2023/01/120875-zero-deadly-how-more-powerful-cars-endanger-lives

Edited November 6, 2023 by vinny41
add

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It will happen and it is already being discussed in Media outlets and no doubt some Government agencies

Zero to Deadly: How More Powerful Cars Endanger Lives

With cars accelerating more quickly, drivers have less time to react and can pose more danger to pedestrians.

Yes the auto industry is likely to resist regulation

Here there talking about  technology such as geofencing that reduces vehicle speeds in certain zones can limit the negative impact of faster acceleration

https://www.planetizen.com/news/2023/01/120875-zero-deadly-how-more-powerful-cars-endanger-lives

 

Have you read who the author of that article is?

 

Diana  @aworkoffiction

 

It's nonsense, it will never happen.

 

I can see a different class of licence being required or have to be older, that would make sense.