Stopping Short Term Lets in a Condo Building. Any Tactics That Have Worked?

[blackcab]

7 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Yes. It is a fire door with press bar opening on both sides, rather than the normal one only facing condo side..

 

Do you have an existing building fire alarm system?

 

Do you have an existing building access control system?

 

Does the door ever need to be used other than in an emergency?

[mokwit]

3 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

Do you have an existing building fire alarm system?

 

Do you have an existing building access control system?

 

Does the door ever need to be used other than in an emergency?

Fire alarm system, access control via key card is 'round the corner - this door offers access ahead of access control doors (walk in off the street and just push down on the bar of a door up a corridor off the main corridor), no use other than emergency.

 

Note, one way doors on floors above would have to be (and are) jammed open, or you would call one of the other 5 people sharing the room to come and open it to gain access

Edited November 14, 2023 by mokwit

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

How do you get trough with a lot of shopping?

 

You don't install a turnstile. You install an access gate similar to what the BTS uses, where panels retact into the sides of the gate.

 

Quite nice options available in glass.

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

Following behind someone opening the door with a keycard is a difficult one.

 

Don't use access cards on all the doors. Use facial recognition/fingerprint in the lift, for example.

 

That makes it very difficult for the average short term renter to get to the correct floor. 

[blackcab]

6 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Fire alarm system, access control via key card is 'round the corner - this door offers access ahead of access control doors (walk in off the street and just push down on the bar of a door up a corridor off the main corridor), no use other than emergency.

 

Easy solution would be to add a magnetic lock to the emergency fire door that is wired into the fire alarm panel.

 

If the fire alarm is activated the magnetic lock opens.

 

Add an emergency glass break box on both sides of the door to override the system and the door is both secure and compliant.

 

If people break the glass and use the override then further add a very loud alarm that can only be reset with a key held by security.

[Dan O]

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

They are in a  position to act following changes and the Committee Member I have spoken to is very much on top of things and implementing solutions via the Juristic Person - I am asking on here as there may be some things we have overlooked or not thought of e.g how do you control access via a fire escape door that opens both ways and can't be locked (obviously).

Its common in most western countries to have fire exit doors magnetically locked to prevent use from the outside. When the fire alarm activates the magnetic locks disengage as part of the safety system

[mokwit]

3 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

Easy solution would be to add a magnetic lock to the emergency fire door that is wired into the fire alarm panel.

 

If the fire alarm is activated the magnetic lock opens.

 

Add an emergency glass break box on both sides of the door to override the system and the door is both secure and compliant.

 

If people break the glass and use the override then further add a very loud alarm that can only be reset with a key held by security.

Thanks, I was thinking of a very loud alarm. You mean break glass both sides to allow override of security activated unlock as a failsafe?

Edited November 14, 2023 by mokwit

[newnative]

57 minutes ago, digbeth said:

Fingerprints or Facial recognition only and limit how often per month the co-owners can add a 'guest' would inconvenience the short term landlord enough that they are unable to do airbnbs anymore 

     Yes, I think these are the two best ways.  Both, as you say, need to have limits as to how often they can be changed, with a steep charge, higher than the average room rate, in my opinion, to make more than 1 change per month.  The person being added should need to be vouched for by the condo owner.  The goal should be to make it not just too inconvenient but also too costly to do short-term rentals.

     It's encouraging that condo projects can change.  We moved out of a project in Pattaya some years ago due to short-term renters.  Recently, my spouse assisted with what the rental agent thought was a long-term rental client for a Bangkok friend who owns a rental condo at the project.  The tenant started renting the room short-term, and, very quickly, management was aware of it and they contacted the Bangkok owner to both tell her to put a stop to it and, I believe, also fined her for the violation.  That's quite a change from when we were there, with some front desk staff at that time assisting with the short-term rentals.

[blackcab]

3 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Thanks, I was thinking of a very loud alarm. You mean break glass both sides to allow override of security activated unlock as a failsafe?

 

Yes, but the unlock would be controlled by the fire alarm system, not the security system.

 

That's a very important distinction. You can't lock a fire door with a security system.

[mokwit]

Just now, blackcab said:

 

Yes, but the unlock would be controlled by the fire alarm system, not the security system.

 

That's a very important distinction. You can't lock a fire door with a security system.

I meant fire alarm alarm activated unlock. My bad.

[mokwit]

13 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Yes, I think these are the two best ways.  Both, as you say, need to have limits as to how often they can be changed, with a steep charge, higher than the average room rate, in my opinion, to make more than 1 change per month.  The person being added should need to be vouched for by the condo owner.  The goal should be to make it not just too inconvenient but also too costly to do short-term rentals.

     It's encouraging that condo projects can change.  We moved out of a project in Pattaya some years ago due to short-term renters.  Recently, my spouse assisted with what the rental agent thought was a long-term rental client for a Bangkok friend who owns a rental condo at the project.  The tenant started renting the room short-term, and, very quickly, management was aware of it and they contacted the Bangkok owner to both tell her to put a stop to it and, I believe, also fined her for the violation.  That's quite a change from when we were there, with some front desk staff at that time assisting with the short-term rentals.

In addition to people renting out a condo or two that they own, we have a group that is aggressively renting condos and then subletting or renting short term (apparently) as a business - not via Airbnb, but rather via their networks in their home country. Four to a room seems normal for them - I don't want my condo made into a flop house. We are going through the paperwork and requiring registration of who is officially renting/in a room to stop this. Although I think our Committee Member has been through this and is on top of things, any suggestions on how to handle this welcome. that is the back end strategy - the front end strategy has to be to prevent entry and make it so problematic for these people that it is just not worth it. I am not going to have my quality of living ruined so that they can make money.

Edited November 14, 2023 by mokwit

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, treetops said:

Same as in industrial building, sports grounds train stations etc where there are turnstiles.  

These are a little bit bigger than your average condo entrance.

[treetops]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

These are a little bit bigger than your average condo entrance.

We don't know all the details and are throwing in suggestions.  Some will work and some won't for a variety of reasons.

[blackcab]

One post has been edited and a second post has been removed. Please stay on topic.

[newnative]

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

In addition to people renting out a condo or two that they own, we have a group that is aggressively renting condos and then subletting or renting short term (apparently) as a business - not via Airbnb, but rather via their networks in their home country. Four to a room seems normal for them - I don't want my condo made into a flop house. We are going through the paperwork and requiring registration of who is officially renting/in a room to stop this. Although I think our Committee Member has been through this and is on top of things, any suggestions on how to handle this welcome. that is the back end strategy - the front end strategy has to be to prevent entry and make it so problematic for these people that it is just not worth it. I am not going to have my quality of living ruined so that they can make money.

     Something like this was the case in another condo project my spouse and I owned at.  It was a large, new project with 1200 units, some only 23 sqm.  Ideal for short-term rentals.  Almost immediately, the project was overrun with just that, visitors staying a few days.  

     At the one of the first AGMs, some of the owners complained about the problem.  Then, a Chinese man stood up and said, 'I pay 1 million baht a year in condo maintenance fees, so why can't I rent my rooms daily?'  If you do the math, you'll see he owned a lot of units--a 23sqm unit would have had condo fees at that time of around 15,000 baht a year.  Basically, he was running a boutique hotel out of the project.  To answer his question, if you want to own a hotel as a business, build a hotel to do that.  Don't use a residential project as your hotel.

      In both of the condo projects I mentioned, there was not enough vocal support at that time from residents to seriously crack down on the problem.  I remember my spouse and I standing up at the AGM at the first project and trying to get attention on the problem.  A few others spoke up as well, but not enough.  We didn't get enough support from the other residents at the meeting.  Some even said they thought owners could do what they wanted with their condos--perhaps they were also doing daily rentals.  Management at both projects, caught between the two sides, promised action but did nothing at that time.

     However, that was a number of years ago.  I think the attitude has shifted somewhat with resident owners now that they have seen the damage caused to their projects by the constant moving in and out churn,  short-term renters not respecting the property or the facilities, and demanding hotel services from condo staff.  Not to mention the atmosphere of a hotel, rather than a residence.

    I think it's important to try to keep the owners at the project aware of the problem and informed.  At one of the projects, my spouse set up a Line group of owners to try to both keep the owners informed on things and to try to have more voices responding to a problem--I think that helps a lot, to get more owners involved, if possible.  You might try something like that.  It sounds like your project is moving in the right direction and I wish you luck.  

     

     

[digbeth]

15 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

Yes, but the unlock would be controlled by the fire alarm system, not the security system.

 

That's a very important distinction. You can't lock a fire door with a security system.

no need to keep it locked, 

you can have switch on the fire door that triggers the whole building fire alarm system that'll piss off enough residents every time someone opens it

or even just a separate alarm to scare those that opens it and make security come and fine them

with enough sign posted warning them of course 

[it is what it is]

12 hours ago, newnative said:

     Something like this was the case in another condo project my spouse and I owned at.  It was a large, new project with 1200 units, some only 23 sqm.  Ideal for short-term rentals.  Almost immediately, the project was overrun with just that, visitors staying a few days.  

     At the one of the first AGMs, some of the owners complained about the problem.  Then, a Chinese man stood up and said, 'I pay 1 million baht a year in condo maintenance fees, so why can't I rent my rooms daily?'  If you do the math, you'll see he owned a lot of units--a 23sqm unit would have had condo fees at that time of around 15,000 baht a year.  Basically, he was running a boutique hotel out of the project.  To answer his question, if you want to own a hotel as a business, build a hotel to do that.  Don't use a residential project as your hotel.

      In both of the condo projects I mentioned, there was not enough vocal support at that time from residents to seriously crack down on the problem.  I remember my spouse and I standing up at the AGM at the first project and trying to get attention on the problem.  A few others spoke up as well, but not enough.  We didn't get enough support from the other residents at the meeting.  Some even said they thought owners could do what they wanted with their condos--perhaps they were also doing daily rentals.  Management at both projects, caught between the two sides, promised action but did nothing at that time.

     However, that was a number of years ago.  I think the attitude has shifted somewhat with resident owners now that they have seen the damage caused to their projects by the constant moving in and out churn,  short-term renters not respecting the property or the facilities, and demanding hotel services from condo staff.  Not to mention the atmosphere of a hotel, rather than a residence.

    I think it's important to try to keep the owners at the project aware of the problem and informed.  At one of the projects, my spouse set up a Line group of owners to try to both keep the owners informed on things and to try to have more voices responding to a problem--I think that helps a lot, to get more owners involved, if possible.  You might try something like that.  It sounds like your project is moving in the right direction and I wish you luck.  

     

     

 

did anything ever change at your place?

[WilliamSmits]

We have fingerprint scanner and (or) face recognition before entering lifts area. Fire exit is also in that area.

Makes it much harder for short term renters to enter as you need to do full registration at condo office.

[it is what it is]

 

there are short term lets at my building but very rarely any issues. it's a well managed building and any contravening of the rules results in a warning and then, if no improvement, removal. i did my research and live in a building that i knew was well managed. research up front can pre-solve an awful lot of condo problems

[newnative]

16 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

 

did anything ever change at your place?

    Not at the two projects that we owned at, while we were there.  But, that was a number of years ago.  I think the first project has gotten tougher; I don't know about the second one.  The problem of illegal short-term renters can be a tough nut to crack.  Luckily, there is new technology that can be utilized--if the project wants to make it more difficult to do these rentals. 

    With some of the big, new projects, with sometimes 1000 units or more, and many of the smaller units the ideal size to use as a hotel room, you have the conflict between owners living in the project or doing long-term rentals vs. owners who bought single or, in some cases, multiple units to specifically do short-term.   Like the Chnese man I mentioned in an earlier post.  With his 30 or more units, he wants to do whatever he wants, and feels, since he owns so many units, he can. 

    Management, meanwhile, may or may not want to get rid of the illegal rentals.  In some cases, staff might be profiting from them by assisting with the rentals.  There also could be the problem, with some of the big, newer projects, of being voted out of the management contract at the AGM by unhappy owners, doing the short-term rentals, banding together.  They could also vote together to get one or more of them elected to the condo board.  

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

    Not at the two projects that we owned at, while we were there.  But, that was a number of years ago.  I think the first project has gotten tougher; I don't know about the second one.  The problem of illegal short-term renters can be a tough nut to crack.  Luckily, there is new technology that can be utilized--if the project wants to make it more difficult to do these rentals. 

    With some of the big, new projects, with sometimes 1000 units or more, and many of the smaller units the ideal size to use as a hotel room, you have the conflict between owners living in the project or doing long-term rentals vs. owners who bought single or, in some cases, multiple units to specifically do short-term.   Like the Chnese man I mentioned in an earlier post.  With his 30 or more units, he wants to do whatever he wants, and feels, since he owns so many units, he can. 

    Management, meanwhile, may or may not want to get rid of the illegal rentals.  In some cases, staff might be profiting from them by assisting with the rentals.  There also could be the problem, with some of the big, newer projects, of being voted out of the management contract at the AGM by unhappy owners, doing the short-term rentals, banding together.  They could also vote together to get one or more of them elected to the condo board.  

good summary of the issues/conflicts.

 

I feel the ST letters faction might be open minded to some measures if they target the new aggressive group specifically. The only problem here is that they are popular with the people taking the lowball offers but getting paid 6 months in advance. Good luck to the group getting their money back from Thai-Chinese if they are subletting and thus found to be in breach of the terms. Hit them where it hurts. make their business non viable.

Edited November 15, 2023 by mokwit

[mokwit]

3 hours ago, digbeth said:

or even just a separate alarm to scare those that opens it and make security come and fine them

with enough sign posted warning them of course 

Thanks. Already suggested exactly this. BIG fines for inappropriate use and LOUD alarm with security told to respond to a serious breach of security and fire safety. If they are sneaking up the fire escape to avoid the keycard entry control then an assumption of criminal intent is reasonable. I found one of the fire escape doors on my floor had been jammed open, thus allowing access from the street directly to my floor with no security control.

Edited November 15, 2023 by mokwit

[scubascuba3]

My condo doesn't have a problem, notices went up, owners told, only 1+ month allowed, worked

[tgw]

21 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

This kind of thing, I've not seen them here but that doesn't mean they don't exist, you'll need a specialist supplier I suspect.

 

 

are these exposed screws ?

[mokwit]

13 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

My condo doesn't have a problem, notices went up, owners told, only 1+ month allowed, worked

Didn't work in my building. Some stopped when we stated our position was no ST lets, most carried on.

[mokwit]

16 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

are these exposed screws ?

Only type that all committee members will approve....................

[scubascuba3]

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

Didn't work in my building. Some stopped when we stated our position was no ST lets, most carried on.

office needs to enforce it, maybe they don't do enough

[mokwit]

Both fire doors on my floor jammed open with cardboard wedges (again). Was alerted to the need to check by door slamming at 3 am. Why are they using the fire escape, who are they, do we have their passport details at reception?. Time to clear these people out.

Edited January 2 by mokwit

[ChipButty]

You can as a neighbour complain to Airbnb if that's where the guest are coming from,

 

I guess it would be difficult to knw which platform they used there is so many,

 

Did you take a look on Airbnb to see if units similar to your are listed? 

 

[Phulublub]

I live in a project where we are on top of this.  Condo Byelaws explicit for no short-term lets, but the biggest factor is enforcement and here we are fontunate to employ our office staff directly rather than using a management company.    Providing you can get enough support, then an AGM resolution to change the management company to your own staff could well make the existing company much more proactive in enforcing the rules (I am assuming your rules do not allow short term lets here).

 

I would look to go the own-staff route in any case.  Talking to others who live in projects with Man.Cos, the difference is marked - they work for us, not for the Company we employ.

 

PH