Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

And then what? Sacrifice all the rest?

 

I did not say that or imply it. I stated what the players involved have been expressing. Hamas has also publicly told its fighters to gear up for the continued offensive in preparation. Once most of the civilian hostages are released and only military or security left along with men of fighting age the stakes for a resumption of the war rise significantly, that is a fact. How that transpires is yet to be seen.

 

My personal opinion is on side with IDF and Israel, wipe out Hamas. My other opinions would be a complete overhaul of the Palestine education system along with real opportunity given to them. How's that all achieved? I am not a general, a politician or key player. I can only leave that to the experts that do profess to hold those qualifications. If you different thoughts then feel free to express them without the need to ask me what I would do. 

 

I didn't mean to imply you they will be sacrificed, but to simply to raise the point that this is a major problem.

 

Generals and leaders prepping their men for a fight is the done thing, politicians often find ways to excuse or spin different decisions ultimately taken. Hamas rhetoric, for example, is always one of confrontation to the death sort of thing - but in effect they raise the white flag quite often. Just a matter of controlling media and dictating the narrative. Israel is the same, but much less authoritative, of course, so the spins are harder, and never as full proof.

 

I don't know how things will be decided - because there are several competing propositions, and the situation is volatile enough that a single small incident can send all 'best intentions' flying.

 

If to draw on past experiences - the current paradigm of hostage releases would continue up to a point where Hamas feels it doesn't serve it's purposes. Maybe that has to do with how many hostages are left in their hands, maybe how well they have prepared for an offensive in southern Gaza Strip, and maybe they managed to smuggle a few hostages out. I should think there's not much chance of massive regional involvement on their behalf (maybe on par with what was seen previously), but could be waiting/planning for a some sort of uprising/unrest in the West Bank to make things more complicated and garner more international support. It's hard to tell because seems like the Hamas decision making process is somewhat broken as compared to the past. Seems like the shots are called almost entirely by the military wing and the Gaza leadership, whereas communications are carried out vs. the Hamas leadership in Qatar.

 

From Israel's side - I seriously doubt that the possibility (or interest) to repeat the same style of fighting applied so far to the southern Gaza Strip. It cannot be as successful, and would certainly generate more international criticism and pressure vs. Israel. Maybe to a degree that will effect USA support. So in case there is no comprehensive ceasefire/hostage deal, it could very well be that Israel would finish up operations in the northern part, then go about the south-side in a different manner - much slower, methodical, and slowly allowing people to return to their homes up north. This is unlikely to be very productive either, and would eventually run into the same international reactions issues previously mentioned.

 

One option that might work is something like the solution applied in 1982 vs. the Fatah in Beirut. The Fatah was cornered and under siege, but the choice made was not to enter and occupy a major Arab city and capital, but to allow the Fatah to withdraw (back then to Tunisia). This allowed both sides some space for media spins, and avoided much bloodshed and prolonged fighting. I don't know if this will be acceptable, and on what terms, this time around.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes I noticed, but I think we can all agree that Hamas has to be eliminated, without that nothing else can fall into place. 

 

'Has to' is not the same as 'can be'. I think I made the same observation even on the early stages of the previous main topic.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

'Has to' is not the same as 'can be'. I think I made the same observation even on the early stages of the previous main topic.

I guess I need to be even clearer, the goal is............................

[Bkk Brian]

Turns out the shooters involved in the incident in Jerusalem today were Hamas members. 3 civilians killed. Both gunman killed by off duty Israeli soldiers. 6 further people injured.

 

Israeli minister says Jerusalem shooters are members of Hamas
Israel's National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir says the two shooters in Jerusalem are members of Hamas and were residents in East Jerusalem.

"These are apparently Hamas operatives, who speak here with two voices, one voice of a so-called cease-fire and a second voice of terror," said Gvir, who was addressing reporters at the scene of the attack.

 

 

[connda]

“Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle—be Thou near them! With them—in spirit—we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.
O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it—
For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! 
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.
Amen.
-The War Prayer, Mark Twain
 

Edited November 30, 2023 by connda

[Bkk Brian]

More information being slowly drip fed out on the treatment of Hamas hostages along with some of the captors roles in Gazan life.

 

Released Thai hostage says Israelis held with him were beaten with electric cables

“We were with Israelis, and they were guarded all the time,” he is quoted saying. “The Jews who were held with me were treated very harshly, sometimes they were beaten with electric cables.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/released-thai-hostage-says-israelis-held-with-him-were-beaten-with-electric-cables/

 

Released hostage says he was held by UNRWA teacher in Gaza - report

One of the hostages, recently released from Gaza, revealed on Wednesday that he was held for nearly 50 days in an attic by a teacher from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).

Furthermore, Boker's report also cites another hostage saying that he was held hostage by a Gazan doctor as he was treating children patients.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775777

 

 

[Neeranam]

8 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The war is about eliminating the threat from Hamas.

It's a smokescreen. 

[Jeff the Chef]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No. You post something, which is not your opinion, not your contribution - but an outside source. You do not comment on it, nor convey your views and thoughts - but demand others do so. Please expand on what, exactly, appeals to you in the guy's clip.

Everything

[Jeff the Chef]

28 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

It's a smokescreen. 

Exactly, all that lovely gas, out in the Med, just off-shore.

As of 2017, the Gaza Marine field licenses were owned by PIF with 17.5% of the field development rights, Consolidated Contractors Company owns 27.5% of these rights and Shell 55%. The development and gas extraction rights belonged to the Palestinians alone. In the year 2018, Shell company, which had taken over British Gas earlier, decided to relinquish its 60% stake in Gaza Marine, transferring it to Palestinian state companies.

[Morch]

33 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Everything

 

If one word is good enough for you, what was wrong with 'nonsense', as previously offered?

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Exactly, all that lovely gas, out in the Med, just off-shore.

As of 2017, the Gaza Marine field licenses were owned by PIF with 17.5% of the field development rights, Consolidated Contractors Company owns 27.5% of these rights and Shell 55%. The development and gas extraction rights belonged to the Palestinians alone. In the year 2018, Shell company, which had taken over British Gas earlier, decided to relinquish its 60% stake in Gaza Marine, transferring it to Palestinian state companies.

 

 

More nonsense.

This was discussed on the previous topic. And on plenty of past ones.

Not even sure what your conspiracy claim is, exactly.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Morch

[Jai Dee]

A post containing a video which is not in the English language has been removed as it contravenes our Community Standards.

[Jeff the Chef]

41 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hamas shot Gali’s dog and then her brother in front of her, then dragged her sobbing by the hair into an underground tunnel in Gaza. They kept her there for 2 months in horrific conditions. 

Hamas raped Israeli girls, brutalized their bodies and slaughtered Israeli babies. 

Then they gave the hostages a water bottle and forced them to smile and say goodbye, if they don’t want to die.

All along the Red Cross just standing there allowing this insanity and abuse to take place, such disregard to the hostage’s dignity and humanity.

Don’t share the video. Fck Hamas.

 

 

Maybe you just want to believe they were ill treated, so that you can justify the slaughter of 1000s of innocent Gazans.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Maybe you just want to believe they were ill treated, so that you can justify the slaughter of 1000s of innocent Gazans.

 

Actually I didn't say anything, I did quote and everything there was factual, her brother was shot dead in front of her.

 

I take it you've not listened or read one of the many reports. No not only in western media but even..........

 

Israeli women and children on their return from captivity in Gaza have spoken of being beaten and threatened, moved from place to place and forced to whisper during weeks spent with little to do, their families say.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/29/freed-israeli-hostages-tell-families-of-ordeal-in-gaza-captivity

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Maybe you just want to believe they were ill treated, so that you can justify the slaughter of 1000s of innocent Gazans.

 

At least you seem to accept they were taken against their will....or maybe you'll try to claim they happily tagged along to Gaza?

[Jeff the Chef]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

At least you seem to accept they were taken against their will....or maybe you'll try to claim they happily tagged along to Gaza?

Nonsense, I have always excepted Hamas's atrocities of the 7th are War Crimes, what others on here fail to get is that Israel is also more than likely guilty of War Crimes as well.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Jeff the Chef

[Morch]

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

Nonsense, I have always excepted Hamas's atrocities of the 7th are War Crimes, what others on here fail to get is that Israel is also more than likely guilty as well.

 

Israel is guilty of Hamas atrocities?

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Israel is guilty of Hamas atrocities?

Edited it for you 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Edited it for you 

 

Yeah, well....that's to be checked, reviewed and decided. And even then, not all war crimes or crimes against humanity are of the same caliber. Given that the Hamas crimes are not disputed (just that maybe there are more of them and more to it than initially thought), maybe stick with facts, rather than focus on speculation.

[Jeff the Chef]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah, well....that's to be checked, reviewed and decided. And even then, not all war crimes or crimes against humanity are of the same caliber. Given that the Hamas crimes are not disputed (just that maybe there are more of them and more to it than initially thought), maybe stick with facts, rather than focus on speculation.

Euro-Med Monitor estimated that at least 15,271 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, including 3,561 women and 6,403 children.

If those figures are anywhere near correct there must be a case for either War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity, and it's nowhere near over yet.

[Jeff the Chef]

Lerpong Sayed told Sky News Hamas saw his negotiating team as "Thai Muslims" rather than as politicians. Thais make up the largest group of foreign nationals working in Israel and many were among those taken hostage by Hamas on 7 October.

 

Thai hostage negotiator thanks Iran for support - and says Hamas justified in taking captives

 

https://news.sky.com/story/thai-hostage-negotiator-thanks-iran-for-support-and-says-hamas-justified-in-taking-captives-13018272

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Lerpong Sayed told Sky News Hamas saw his negotiating team as "Thai Muslims" rather than as politicians. Thais make up the largest group of foreign nationals working in Israel and many were among those taken hostage by Hamas on 7 October.

 

Thai hostage negotiator thanks Iran for support - and says Hamas justified in taking captives

 

https://news.sky.com/story/thai-hostage-negotiator-thanks-iran-for-support-and-says-hamas-justified-in-taking-captives-13018272

That's disgusting. What did he say about all the Thai workers that Hamas murdered in cold blood? Conveniently didn't mention? 

[Jeff the Chef]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's disgusting. What did he say about all the Thai workers that Hamas murdered in cold blood? Conveniently didn't mention? 

Go to 2.08 that question was asked and answered in the video, it's all there.

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Go to 2.08 that question was asked and answered in the video, it's all there.

Oh I see. Even worse than I thought. October 7 denialism. I suppose you think that answer was OK. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jeff the Chef]

39 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Oh I see. Even worse than I thought. October 7 denialism. I suppose you think that answer was OK. 

Not up to me, is it? I can't answer for the Thai negotiator.

 

[novacova]

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Euro-Med Monitor estimated that at least 15,271 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, including 3,561 women and 6,403 children.

If those figures are anywhere near correct there must be a case for either War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity, and it's nowhere near over yet.

Absolutely correct, hamass guilty as charged 

[Jeff the Chef]

13 minutes ago, novacova said:

Absolutely correct, hamass guilty as charged 

Innocent until proved guilty same as Israel if they ever get charged.

[novacova]

9 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Innocent until proved guilty same as Israel if they ever get charged.

Evidently the rope has been cut, the ship has sailed lost at sea and is never coming back.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Euro-Med Monitor estimated that at least 15,271 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, including 3,561 women and 6,403 children.

If those figures are anywhere near correct there must be a case for either War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity, and it's nowhere near over yet.

 

I'm not even going to bother asking you for a link. Euro-Med is Falk's toy. As such, it is quite expected that it will do it's best to paint Israel in the worst way possible, while mostly ignoring any wrong committed by the Palestinian side. Finkelstein, Falk....yeah, can see why you'd get excited. Be that as it may - it is not clear what the figures are based on (other than the Hamas controlled figures touted around). Quite obviously these figures lump together civilians and Hamas personnel - in order to inflate the former. While you may declare 'a case for', I am not aware that the number of casualties, by itself is central to the process of deciding whether a crime was committed.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Not up to me, is it? I can't answer for the Thai negotiator.

 

 

Yeah, you only post links, not so much into discussing them - probably be you cannot.