Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

@Morch

 

Are you saying he was lying?

Israel didn't take 6,000 prisoners and refuse their families to see them?

I am neither deflecting or ignoring anything he said, jeez.

 

You originally said 'hostages'. Prisoners is something else.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

What do you mean ''caught out"?   I have never been caught out about anything.

You really think you are moderating this thread, don't you?

Sorry my anwers are not meaningful

 

Caught out posting things which are incorrect, untrue, false, over the top and so on.

More than once.

I'm not moderating anything, obviously - seeing as you're still posting rubbish day it day out.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Unbelievable that you ask anyone who sympathizes with the Palestians for links, yet don't give them yourself.

 

The clip was posted on this original topic more than once, with most instances removed by moderation team due to content.

I'm not sure which you're trying to deny - the existence of the clip? The act itself? That is was posted already?

Just your usual brand of lame deflections.

[Hawaiian]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

To graphic to post a link to that but its out there unfortunately, an awful vid of the attempted beheading of a Thai worker who was still alive when the hack started, carried out with a shovel type tool. PM me if you really want to see it.

 

Just showed this to my Thai girlfriend who normally does not show much interest politics.  Nearly brought tears to her eyes.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

Was explained earlier that 7th of October attacks was composed out of a mixture of different militia factions within Gaza followed by many civilians that was not part of these more ore less targeted attacks of :

 

1. Kibbutzim to take maximum hostages after neutralizing Israeli security forces

2. Military bases around Gaza : neutralizing them to be able to take maximum of hostages

3. Rave party : was not foreseen or planned int the attacks because it was not announced in advanced of the extension day on 7th of October 2023

 

Many lootings and extra judicial killings (like the Thai worker) happened but were not part of the plan of taking hostages. Telling that all Gaza militants went out for extra judicial killings and looting is not correct. It just fits the Israeli narrative...

 

More lame deflections and fabrications.

 

There were plenty of civilians killed by Hamas men in the Kibbutzim. A whole lot of Hamas camera footage available. There is practically no chance Hamas was not aware of the existence of the rave. It was no secret, and right on their doorstep. Considering the number of Hamas present during the attack on the party, claiming it was 'by chance' is a joke.

 

The notion that Hamas is only responsible for the direct actions of it's own men is nonsense as well. As the de-facto governing body in the Gaza Strip, it's on Hamas anyway. Your claim that the ones who killed Thai workers were not Hamas is something you claim - not fact. You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Just showed this to my Thai girlfriend who normally does not show much interest politics.  Nearly brought tears to her eyes.

 

The Mrs. was more into a rage fit. Suggested she take a hoe and work it out in the garden. There was almost an incident.

[Hawaiian]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The Mrs. was more into a rage fit. Suggested she take a hoe and work it out in the garden. There was almost an incident.

Living with me for many years my girl has learned not to stress out over things she has no control over.  I guess that is why we discuss things, but never argue.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Living with me for many years my girl has learned not to stress out over things she has no control over.  I guess that is why we discuss things, but never argue.

 

About 20 years now, but temper is an underlying issue. Guess it's also one of the reasons I love her. She did end up digging a nice ditch, although not where it was supposed to be. She's been to the ME on some of my trips, even to Israel and the West Bank. Didn't care much for the people (on both sides), loves the food, though. Med is more her thing - less aggro, more laid back.

[Thorgal]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

More lame deflections and fabrications.

 

There were plenty of civilians killed by Hamas men in the Kibbutzim. A whole lot of Hamas camera footage available. There is practically no chance Hamas was not aware of the existence of the rave. It was no secret, and right on their doorstep. Considering the number of Hamas present during the attack on the party, claiming it was 'by chance' is a joke.

 

The notion that Hamas is only responsible for the direct actions of it's own men is nonsense as well. As the de-facto governing body in the Gaza Strip, it's on Hamas anyway. Your claim that the ones who killed Thai workers were not Hamas is something you claim - not fact. You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting.

 

More lame deflections and fabrications #1 :

 

Quote from post : "There is practically no chance Hamas was not aware of the existence of the rave. It was no secret, and right on their doorstep. Considering the number of Hamas present during the attack on the party, claiming it was 'by chance' is a joke."

 

"You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting."

 

Quote from my source :

 

According to reports published on 17 November, the police concluded based on interrogations and their own investigations that Hamas did not know about the festival beforehand but came across it by accident and decided to attack it.

 

Israeli security authorities suggested that Hamas likely lacked advance knowledge of the Nova Festival. Senior officials estimated that Hamas may have become aware of the event through drones or individuals parachuting, and subsequently directed terrorists to the location using their communication system.[

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re'im_music_festival_massacre#:~:text=Israeli security authorities suggested that,location using their communication system.

 

Conclusion : 

[Neeranam]

44 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The clip was posted on this original topic more than once, with most instances removed by moderation team due to content.

I'm not sure which you're trying to deny - the existence of the clip? The act itself? That is was posted already?

Just your usual brand of lame deflections.

I never saw the clip, that simple. Not denying anything.

Deflecting from what?

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

More lame deflections and fabrications #1 :

 

Quote from post : "There is practically no chance Hamas was not aware of the existence of the rave. It was no secret, and right on their doorstep. Considering the number of Hamas present during the attack on the party, claiming it was 'by chance' is a joke."

 

"You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting."

 

Quote from my source :

 

According to reports published on 17 November, the police concluded based on interrogations and their own investigations that Hamas did not know about the festival beforehand but came across it by accident and decided to attack it.

 

Israeli security authorities suggested that Hamas likely lacked advance knowledge of the Nova Festival. Senior officials estimated that Hamas may have become aware of the event through drones or individuals parachuting, and subsequently directed terrorists to the location using their communication system.[

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re'im_music_festival_massacre#:~:text=Israeli security authorities suggested that,location using their communication system.

 

Conclusion : 

 

Pfft.

 

You base your claims on one report - parts of which have already been denied and rejected by Israeli security forces. Considering the event was no secret, and the location in the midst of Hamas intended area of operations, it's not quite clear how they wouldn't be aware of it. Other than a vague single line comment in this report, nothing to suggest the logic or reasoning for the assumption. As for Israeli Police - not exactly the top security agency in country, especially on matters relating to events of this scale. Such assessments are way above their pay grade.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I never saw the clip, that simple. Not denying anything.

Deflecting from what?

 

Yawn.

Kinda convenient how you don't see, don't know about stuff that runs against your agenda.

[Thorgal]

46 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

More lame deflections and fabrications.

 

There were plenty of civilians killed by Hamas men in the Kibbutzim. A whole lot of Hamas camera footage available. There is practically no chance Hamas was not aware of the existence of the rave. It was no secret, and right on their doorstep. Considering the number of Hamas present during the attack on the party, claiming it was 'by chance' is a joke.

 

The notion that Hamas is only responsible for the direct actions of it's own men is nonsense as well. As the de-facto governing body in the Gaza Strip, it's on Hamas anyway. Your claim that the ones who killed Thai workers were not Hamas is something you claim - not fact. You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting.

 

More lame deflections and fabrications #2 :

 

Your post : The notion that Hamas is only responsible for the direct actions of it's own men is nonsense as well. As the de-facto governing body in the Gaza Strip, it's on Hamas anyway. Your claim that the ones who killed Thai workers were not Hamas is something you claim - not fact.

 

"You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting."

 

Quote from my source :

 

"Al-Qassam and Saraya Al-Quds conclude the handover of the 5th batch of hostages."

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231129-al-qassam-and-saraya-al-quds-conclude-the-handover-of-the-5th-batch-of-hostages/

 

Conclusion : Israeli and Asian hostages held by Al-Qassam (Hamas military wing) and Saraya Al-Quds (non Hamas military wing) were released recently. This is another proof that most or all Asian hostages were held captive as hostages by Al-Qassam and/or Saraya Al-Quds. 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad

 

Other Gaza brigades like Islamic Jihad might also have Israeli and/or Asian hostages, but they don't work together under official elected Hamas.

 

1. Who attacked the factory or place with all these Asian workers is logically the military wing that took them as hostages. Not all Gaza brigades attacked the same places.

 

2. Hamas and all other Gaza brigades do not always work together.

3. Many non-military Gazans participated in the looting and extra judicial crimes without any control or supervision

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Thorgal

[Thorgal]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Pfft.

 

You base your claims on one report - parts of which have already been denied and rejected by Israeli security forces. Considering the event was no secret, and the location in the midst of Hamas intended area of operations, it's not quite clear how they wouldn't be aware of it. Other than a vague single line comment in this report, nothing to suggest the logic or reasoning for the assumption. As for Israeli Police - not exactly the top security agency in country, especially on matters relating to events of this scale. Such assessments are way above their pay grade.

 

No problem for me if you refute the official Israeli narrative after police investigation.

 

You've quoted this as : "More lame deflections and fabrications."

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

More lame deflections and fabrications #2 :

 

Your post : The notion that Hamas is only responsible for the direct actions of it's own men is nonsense as well. As the de-facto governing body in the Gaza Strip, it's on Hamas anyway. Your claim that the ones who killed Thai workers were not Hamas is something you claim - not fact.

 

"You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting."

 

Quote from my source :

 

"Al-Qassam and Saraya Al-Quds conclude the handover of the 5th batch of hostages."

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231129-al-qassam-and-saraya-al-quds-conclude-the-handover-of-the-5th-batch-of-hostages/

 

Conclusion : Israeli and Asian hostages held by Al-Qassam (Hamas military wing) and Saraya Al-Quds (non Hamas military wing) were released recently. This is another proof that most or all Asian hostages were held captive as hostages by Al-Qassam and/or Saraya Al-Quds. 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad

 

Other Gaza brigades like Islamic Jihad might also have Israeli and/or Asian hostages, but they don't work together under official elected Hamas.

 

1. Who attacked the factory or place with all these Asian workers is logically the military wing that took them as hostages. Not all Gaza brigades attacked the same places.

 

2. Hamas and all other Gaza brigades do not always work together.

3. Many non-military Gazans participated in the looting and extra judicial crimes without any control or supervision

 

 

 

Hamas is the de-facto ruler of the Gaza Strip, and is considering itself sovereign - hence it is responsible no matter how much you try to spin things.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

No problem for me if you refute the official Israeli narrative after police investigation.

 

You've quoted this as : "More lame deflections and fabrications."

 

More nonsense.....

[Hawaiian]

22 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What 'people'? On his current cabinet, there's a mediocre ex-general as Defense Minister, and a couple of former IDF chiefs turned politicians belonging to an opposition party who joined government as an emergency measure. Again, given past instances, you can count on Netanyahu picking whatever action he feels would be most beneficial for his personal political interests. The other version regarding his decision making capabilities was referenced by a long term political ally - to the effect that Netanyahu's decisions are governed by the last person he speaks to. All the confident baritone voice bravado is a facade. About half of the Israelis would probably say bottom line it's his wife and eldest son who call the shots. 

I tend to disagree with your assessment of Netanyahu's  ability to manage the present conflict.  Benny Ganz, who is a member of the war cabinet has a very impressive military career.  Was he chosen by Netanyahu for political reasons? Maybe.  Even if that were true, Ganz's considerable military experience, both as a non-com and high ranking officer could be a valuable asset in making strategic decisions.  Remember, many times military goals align with political goals.  Personally, I hope you are wrong.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Hawaiian said:

I tend to disagree with your assessment of Netanyahu's  ability to manage the present conflict.  Benny Ganz, who is a member of the war cabinet has a very impressive military career.  Was he chosen by Netanyahu for political reasons? Maybe.  Even if that were true, Ganz's considerable military experience, both as a non-com and high ranking officer could be a valuable asset in making strategic decisions.  Remember, many times military goals align with political goals.  Personally, I hope you are wrong.

 

What are you on about? Gantz 'chosen'? Gantz is the head of a current opposition party, which agreed to conditionally join the cabinet for the duration of the emergency. It was not Netanyahu's 'choice' per se. As for his past appointment for IDF chief of staff - he was a distant third choice, picked after Netanyahu's candidate (and current Defense Minister, Gallant, was dropped because of a legal case). I'm not saying he's clueless or anything, but he's not quite the brilliant strategist or tactician either - his role in this is to be the 'adult-in-the-room', and to generate a semblance of stability and level headed take on things - which Netanyahu often fails to broadcast or apply. How much influence he actually have on current events is a good question. Since this would be the second time he politically 'saves' Netanyahu, and seeing how the first time fared, best be cautious about how things will pan.

[Hawaiian]

16 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

More lame deflections and fabrications #2 :

 

Your post : The notion that Hamas is only responsible for the direct actions of it's own men is nonsense as well. As the de-facto governing body in the Gaza Strip, it's on Hamas anyway. Your claim that the ones who killed Thai workers were not Hamas is something you claim - not fact.

 

"You seem to know the exact workings of the Hamas plans, and in detail....interesting."

 

Quote from my source :

 

"Al-Qassam and Saraya Al-Quds conclude the handover of the 5th batch of hostages."

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231129-al-qassam-and-saraya-al-quds-conclude-the-handover-of-the-5th-batch-of-hostages/

 

Conclusion : Israeli and Asian hostages held by Al-Qassam (Hamas military wing) and Saraya Al-Quds (non Hamas military wing) were released recently. This is another proof that most or all Asian hostages were held captive as hostages by Al-Qassam and/or Saraya Al-Quds. 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad

 

Other Gaza brigades like Islamic Jihad might also have Israeli and/or Asian hostages, but they don't work together under official elected Hamas.

 

1. Who attacked the factory or place with all these Asian workers is logically the military wing that took them as hostages. Not all Gaza brigades attacked the same places.

 

2. Hamas and all other Gaza brigades do not always work together.

3. Many non-military Gazans participated in the looting and extra judicial crimes without any control or supervision

 

 

Who cares whether they all work together or not.  They are all savage criminals who need to be eliminated.  No need to elaborate who did this and who did that.  They are all guilty of horrific acts.

[Hawaiian]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What are you on about? Gantz 'chosen'? Gantz is the head of a current opposition party, which agreed to conditionally join the cabinet for the duration of the emergency. It was not Netanyahu's 'choice' per se. As for his past appointment for IDF chief of staff - he was a distant third choice, picked after Netanyahu's candidate (and current Defense Minister, Gallant, was dropped because of a legal case). I'm not saying he's clueless or anything, but he's not quite the brilliant strategist or tactician either - his role in this is to be the 'adult-in-the-room', and to generate a semblance of stability and level headed take on things - which Netanyahu often fails to broadcast or apply. How much influence he actually have on current events is a good question. Since this would be the second time he politically 'saves' Netanyahu, and seeing how the first time fared, best be cautious about how things will pan.

No need for further explanation.  Just say they are inmates running the asylum and leave it at that.

[Thorgal]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Hamas is the de-facto ruler of the Gaza Strip, and is considering itself sovereign - hence it is responsible no matter how much you try to spin things.

 

 

"hence it is responsible" = Common Morch, no short cuts. You can do better.

[Thorgal]

6 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Who cares whether they all work together or not.  They are all savage criminals who need to be eliminated.  No need to elaborate who did this and who did that.  They are all guilty of horrific acts.

 

Agreed with most of your comments, but did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

Agreed with most of your comments, but did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

 

Yawn.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

 

"hence it is responsible" = Common Morch, no short cuts. You can do better.

 

No need for shortcuts. It is what it is. If Hamas is sovereign, it's responsible.

[Hawaiian]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Agreed with most of your comments, but did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

If you consider casualties caused by Hamas's use of hospitals and peoples homes to store arms and munitions and their use of human shields as "horrific acts", then the obvious answer would be yes.

[Thorgal]

1 minute ago, Hawaiian said:

If you consider casualties caused by Hamas's use of hospitals and peoples homes to store arms and munitions and their use of human shields as "horrific acts", then the obvious answer would be yes.

 

I asked : did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

 

No need to hide behind Hamas.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

I asked : did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

 

No need to hide behind Hamas.

 

No need for Hamas to hide behind the Gazans.

Or is there?

[Hawaiian]

7 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

I asked : did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

 

No need to hide behind Hamas.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

I asked : did Israeli army also commit "horrific acts" since 7th of October 2023?

 

No need to hide behind Hamas.

I don't know.  You tell me.  And please, no links from Al-jazeera.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Hawaiian
correct spelling

[Thorgal]

9 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

 

 

I don't know.  You tell me.  And please, no links from Al-jazeera.

 

1. AJ+ is mostly OK for me as news outlet.

 

2. Fine for me if you don't know the answer to my question as expected.

 

Thanks, anyway.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hamas and franchise use interconnecting tunnels over the total territory in Gaza in case of ground offensive and/or carpet bombings.

So they operate against Israeli ground offensive mostly from under the Gazans non combatant civilians, and not from behind.

 

Some 1.500.000 Gaza civilians were displaced from North Gaza.

 

Bringing some 2.200.000 together on +/- 200 km2 South Gaza makes it ultra dense populated.

 

 

There is no carpet bombing other than in your posts and imagination.

Your nonsense about Hamas being in tunnels somehow making the civilians Israel's responsibility is nonsense.

Same goes for the 'behind', 'under' drivel.

That's without addressing Hamas's usage of schools and hospitals, of course.