Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   There hasn't been any indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas though , all targets have been deliberately targeted  , civilians were also asked to leave the area numerous times, to allegations that Israel targeting civilians wouldn't stand up in Court because Israel asked them to leave and gave them a passage to leave .

 

Civilians were ordered to leave their homes and then they got bombed, killing thousands of civilians. Somehow you think a warning absolves the guilt. Amazing.

 

The mere bombing of those homes was a war crime, apart from any casualties. Retaliation against civilians is a war crime. Revenge is evil.

Edited December 5, 2023 by ozimoron

[Jeff the Chef]

21 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   If there's evidence that Israel has committed war crimes , then they should face justice .

But there's no evidence that Israel has committed war crimes . 

Palestinians left their homes/area freely, they werent forced to go anywhere 

Really, WTF

[Thorgal]

12 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   There hasn't been any indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas though , all targets have been deliberately targeted  , civilians were also asked to leave the area numerous times, to allegations that Israel targeting civilians wouldn't stand up in Court because Israel asked them to leave and gave them a passage to leave .

 

So, You tell your neighbors that you will stab them...for whatever reason...

To avoid this you tell them that they should move away.

If they didn't move away you think that you have the right to stab them to death.

If they survive or resist you will justify your intentions and deeds that you've warned them in time...

 

All this by the only democracy in the ME and the most moral army in the world...LOL 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Thorgal

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Really, WTF

 

There's some real disinformation being peddled here.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Civilians were ordered to leave their homes and then they got bombed, killing thousands of civilians. Somehow you think a warning absolves the guilt. Amazing.

 

The mere bombing of those homes was a war crime, apart from any casualties. Retaliation against civilians is a war crime. Revenge is evil.

 

   Civilians were asked to leave their homes , they were not ordered   . Giving a warning does indeed absolve Israel from committing war crimes , because it shows civilians were not targeted .

   Israel are warring with Hamas and they are legally allowed for use force against Hamas , Israel can bomb buildings used by Hamas .

   No war crimes committed 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Civilians were asked to leave their homes , they were not ordered   . Giving a warning does indeed absolve Israel from committing war crimes , because it shows civilians were not targeted .

   Israel are warring with Hamas and they are legally allowed for use force against Hamas , Israel can bomb buildings used by Hamas .

   No war crimes committed 

 

Civilians got killed in their thousands and Israel knew they were going to die but bombed them regardless. Give a link to any credible claim that giving a warning absolves anybody of any crime let alone a war crime.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

So, You tell you neighbors......................................

 

   

  Stop right there .

We are not talking about my neighbours .

Civil law is different to International law ,.

We are talking about the Hamas /Israel war and not my neighbours 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   

  Stop right there .

We are not talking about my neighbours .

Civil law is different to International law ,.

We are talking about the Hamas /Israel war and not my neighbours 

 

 

Your new word for today - analogy.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

No, they put them on trial when credible evidence emerges, like any crime.

 

Don't accuse me of lying. I asked if any of Israel's apologists would condemn Israel for war crimes. You are obviously not among them.

 

Would you support even trying the case? I doubt it.

 

Yeah, well - international proceedings don't work like that, in case you weren't aware.

 

I did not accuse you of lying. I do think you're over the top most times, though - and often not very accurate in your comments. More (biased) opinion than fact sort of thing. I do not deny the possibility that Israel committed war crimes during this war. Given the sheer number of military operations and the urban setting, it's a reasonable assumption. But not a proven one. Much of what is claimed, by posters, politicians, protestors and so on as 'war crimes' does not actually amount to such. A whole lot of things may be wrong, ugly, deadly and whatever - but not necessarily 'war crimes'.

 

What case? Who would try it? What evidence would be presented? You're just tossing about assumptions about legalities and posters' views, nothing more.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Civilians got killed in their thousands and Israel knew they were going to die but bombed them regardless. Give a link to any credible claim that giving a warning absolves anybody of any crime let alone a war crime.

 

   You can easily do a web search and find out what constitutes a war crime .

I am very surprised that you haven't done that already , as you keep accusing Israel of committing war crimes, I would have thought you would have had some idea of what you are talking about 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You can easily do a web search and find out what constitutes a war crime .

I am very surprised that you haven't done that already , as you keep accusing Israel of committing war crimes, I would have thought you would have had some idea of what you are talking about 

 

You'll be stunned to know that I know precisely what is a war crime. I'm surprised that you appear to have no clue.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Indiscriminant bombing of civilians and civilian infrastructure, mass displacement of civilians, and so on. These are universally recognized war crimes. Denying that such events have taken place is simply propaganda.

 

On a whole range of topics, you post comments such as this. Short, decisive, no doubts - as if you're an expert on whatever topic is at hand. In reality, this is your opinion, a biased one, rather than a legal analysis or fact. If it was that easy, cases against Israel would be mounting right now. This ain't happening.

[Jeff the Chef]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You can easily do a web search and find out what constitutes a war crime .

I am very surprised that you haven't done that already , as you keep accusing Israel of committing war crimes, I would have thought you would have had some idea of what you are talking about 

1, Wilful killing and unjustified destruction and appropriation of property

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Civilians were ordered to leave their homes and then they got bombed, killing thousands of civilians. Somehow you think a warning absolves the guilt. Amazing.

 

The mere bombing of those homes was a war crime, apart from any casualties. Retaliation against civilians is a war crime. Revenge is evil.

 

You are describing things that are not necessarily tied to each other. You'd make a terrible prosecutor, or legal representative.

The bombing itself is not necessarily a 'war crime' other than in your imagination.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

On a whole range of topics, you post comments such as this. Short, decisive, no doubts - as if you're an expert on whatever topic is at hand. In reality, this is your opinion, a biased one, rather than a legal analysis or fact. If it was that easy, cases against Israel would be mounting right now. This ain't happening.

 

Like I'm the only person accusing Israel of war crimes? Do you imagine that evidence is not being collected for a war crimes prosecution?

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

There's some real disinformation being peddled here.

 

By yourself, for sure.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

1, Wilful killing and unjustified destruction and appropriation of property

 

   Israel have been targeting Hamas and buildings which they have been using to attack Israel and places used for living and storage or whatever .

   If 1 Hamas guy lives in an apparent complex, then the whole building is coming down , Israel are allowed to do that 

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

On a whole range of topics, you post comments such as this. Short, decisive, no doubts - as if you're an expert on whatever topic is at hand. In reality, this is your opinion, a biased one, rather than a legal analysis or fact. If it was that easy, cases against Israel would be mounting right now. This ain't happening.

Exactly what you're doing here, the ICC's Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) opened an official investigation into the situation in Palestine in 2021 after determining that “war crimes have been or are being committed by Palestinian and Israeli actors in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip”

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Civilians got killed in their thousands and Israel knew they were going to die but bombed them regardless. Give a link to any credible claim that giving a warning absolves anybody of any crime let alone a war crime.

 

Civilians were not asked to evacuate and then immediately bombed to kingdom come. As for links, it's kinda lame jumping late to the topic and demanding links for things that were discussed, linked and argued upon numerous times by now.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel have been targeting Hamas and buildings which they have been using to attack Israel and places used for living and storage or whatever .

   If 1 Hamas guy lives in an apparent complex, then the whole building is coming down , Israel are allowed to do that 

 

No they aren't.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Your new word for today - analogy.

 

Simplistic analogies are for people who cannot deal with reality and details.

I can see why you'd be for them.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Simplistic analogies are for people who cannot deal with reality and details.

I can see why you'd be for them.

 

They help people understand, it clearly failed.

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You'll be stunned to know that I know precisely what is a war crime. I'm surprised that you appear to have no clue.

 

   So why are you making false/ wrong claims about what a war crime is ?

I know what a war crime is , you don't seem to know what a war crime is 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Like I'm the only person accusing Israel of war crimes? Do you imagine that evidence is not being collected for a war crimes prosecution?

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

 

Amnesty is a human rights organization, with vested interests and problematic ties in this scenario. It does not try cases, and the evidence collection process it applies is not necessarily conclusive or even usable. Again, you seem confused between accusations and actual 'war crimes'.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

They help people understand, it clearly failed.

 

   Thai civil law is very different to International laws 

So its pointless inventing a story about my relationship with my neighbour because we don't adhere to the same rules as Israel does when fighting Hamas .

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Amnesty is a human rights organization, with vested interests and problematic ties in this scenario. It does not try cases, and the evidence collection process it applies is not necessarily conclusive or even usable. Again, you seem confused between accusations and actual 'war crimes'.

 

Amnesty have evidence. They collect evidence. What do you think they do with evidence?

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

No they aren't.

 

   Who says they cannot do that ?

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Amnesty have evidence. They collect evidence. What do you think they do with evidence?

 

   What evidence do they have and what war crimes are alleged to have been committed ?

[Jeff the Chef]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel have been targeting Hamas and buildings which they have been using to attack Israel and places used for living and storage or whatever .

   If 1 Hamas guy lives in an apparent complex, then the whole building is coming down , Israel are allowed to do that 

Well Nick, congrats, that one takes the biscuit, so the Israeli's know the names and addresses of Hamas fighters in Gaza, then they obliterate the whole area but only after a text, email or leaflet drop, when this eventually gets to court I'm sure that will hold up well.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Exactly what you're doing here, the ICC's Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) opened an official investigation into the situation in Palestine in 2021 after determining that “war crimes have been or are being committed by Palestinian and Israeli actors in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip”

 

No, the poster I replied to have a history of commenting in the same manner on a whole range of topics. Me, I know my limits. Some things I'm very clued on, some not so much. I tend to post accordingly. Really not the same, Jeff - you better get to know the crowd before commenting on such.

 

As for the ICC investigation you mentioned, this too was already discussed - so to recap, it's still an ongoing investigation, and it does not necessarily relate to current events. Further, it was started by the previous holder of office, which was seen as very biased. The current guy seems more even-handed, if not the man he appointed to directly deal with this (maybe that was intentional). Same advice as directed at the other poster - learn the difference between things that might be and things that are.