Living in Thailand using only ATM money for more than 6-months - tax consequences

[tandor]

On 12/3/2023 at 11:06 AM, bamnutsak said:

 

 

The credit card thing will be a potentially major hit.

 

For example, all air tickets ex THL are issued in THB (Sold Inside, Ticketed Inside - SITI), so if using a foreign credit card you'll essentially be remitting your foreign currency for that purchase. For a THL-USA-THL RT in business that might be a 175,000 Baht (assessible income) hit.

 

I use my foreign CC here for ~ 100,000 baht each year, exclusive of air tickets and domestic hotels. 

 

 

The consensus here and elsewhere is that ATM withdrawals would probably be considered accessible income.

 

A lot of Thai people, who receive funds from off-shore, may be in for a surprise.

 

 

 

 

..could not the TRO order all banks to levy VAT on a scale on all transactions?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There is some sharing of bank account details between the Thai government / banking system and other countries like the U.S.

 

But I have no reason to think that currently extends to the details of ATM withdrawals made in Thailand using foreign debit cards, which are not part of the inter-country bank account info sharing that currently occurs.

 

Also, when it comes to Thai bank ATM transactions occurring with foreign bank cards, those are mainly handled by the international card networks like VISA and MC, and not by the local Thai banks themselves. So it's not clear to me just how much, if any, detailed info the Thai banks keep on those kinds of transactions.

 

And I think it unlikely the Thai banks have any ready ability, on a national scale, to trace particular foreign debit card transactions here back to individual bank account numbers in foreign countries. Especially since debit card numbers always are different that the actual bank account numbers they're linked to.

 

International wire transfers, on the other hand, would be an entirely different matter, as the recipient Thai bank obviously would directly receive and know the sending bank account details for where the transaction originated.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[BangkokHank]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, Gottfrid said:

If you do t that way. No tax will fall on you. Same I have done lately. All my money goes to a Cambodian account. After that a card attached. Unlimited spending and works in Thai ATMs

 

My money is in a brokerage account in another country, and the account is not accessible by ATM. The only way to get money from the account is to transfer it to a bank account in my name anywhere in the world. Your way of doing it should work for me as well. I could transfer the money from my brokerage account to a bank account in my name in Cambodia, then access that money in Thailand via ATM, thereby bypassing any tax that the Thais would try to impose on it. Thanks very much for the idea.

 

So the obvious question: How difficult is it for someone not living in Cambodia to open a bank account there? I guess it must be possible, as you have done it. What are the requirements to do so?

 

Thanks.

[Searat7]

I stay here 7 months a year and plan to bring cash from USA when I return to Bangkok if taxation actually becomes an issue. One is allowed to bring in $20,000 without declaration.  I have gotten very used to paying by QR code here though and it is very convenient . 

[charleskerins]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:27 AM, jerrymahoney said:

As I see it, the weak link in the OP's search for loopholes is when -- as he is staying for 6+ months -- he has to at some point  physically present himself at immigration either for extension or multiple times at a port of entry and immigration may start asking as to just how he supports himself -- nothing hi-tech about it.

 

And for those on the agent route, it may come down to whether the IMM folks are going to be willing to share their bribe money with the Revenue dept. folks.

Thought the same but don't want to broadcast any ideas; but that is where they could get you.

[koolkarl]

You can strap your cash onto the back of a donkey and send him across into Thailand but it won't matter. Thailand has signed tax co-operating agreements with many countries that is already in effect.  If you have a Singapore bank account, for example, your bank in Singapore will automatically report each year, how much money you earn in Singapore and your total assets in Singapore, and send this info to the Thai tax people.  On top of that, Thailand will go cashless in the near future.  More info stored on gov. computers. So for the ones now using their phone to pay for things, you are cutting your own throat.

[jerrymahoney]

I remember once traveling to Thailand in the 1990's with an inch thick US passport with mutiple inserts. I put a paper clip on the current multi-entry tourist visa thinking I was helping out the IMM agent at the airport.

 

The agent took one look at the clip, removed it, and started at page one going through every page of the entire maybe hundred page passport.

 

What I later realized is that, to the agent, maybe the clip was there as there were some things in that passport I did not want the agent to see.

 

Some answers related to this to this issue may end up the same

Edited December 4, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Everyman]

In a months time it will be clear this the proposed tax law changes are a nothing burger and nothing will be different. The revenue department might have a few particular Thai individuals they want to go after, but expats with names like Jomtien Jack and Bangkok Bob aren’t likely to be targeted. 

[Thingamabob]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:35 PM, topt said:

As someone who, in many of the tax threads,  keeps saying that if you live here you should expect to pay taxes surely you will be filling in a tax return if you live here more than 180 days in a year.........

One such comment - (not necessarily the right context but it has been a fairly consistent theme with you)

 

Unhelpful and ignorant to say the least. 

[1FinickyOne]

The only time I am taxed here is on the interest earned in my Thai Bank Account... 

[PingRoundTheWorld]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:35 PM, topt said:

As someone who, in many of the tax threads,  keeps saying that if you live here you should expect to pay taxes surely you will be filling in a tax return if you live here more than 180 days in a year.........

One such comment - (not necessarily the right context but it has been a fairly consistent theme with you)

Why should anyone pay taxes on money that's already been taxed in their home country? That is neither fair nor makes any financial sense. It remains to be seen how this will actually be enforced - if at all - but unlikely that they'll force everybody to file tax returns.

[MJCM]

10 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Some cards have refundable ATM charges. Assuming a person does not carry it, the charge of 225 baht for a withdrawal of 30K (or 20K) at a time is still acceptable. 

 

Wise do charge a lot more then what the Thai Banks charges for usage of their ATM (Thai Bank charges the 2xx THB).

 

Wise ATM Card (last week when I used it) charged more then double that when withdrawing 25k THB and they labelled it as "Our ATM Fee".

 

Ps: No currency conversion as it was from my THB Balance at Wise.

[55Jay]

I do same as OP.  A few ATM pulls each month, deposit into Thai bank account for local use.   Suppose it's less about the means of access than the category and tax profile of the funds, and if your country has a tax treaty with Thailand.   

 

FWIW, I got a Tax ID number here in 2013 so I could file returns to recoup tax withheld on Thai bank account interest.  Revenue Bandits called me to their main office for some questions.  Figured it was the first time I was on their radar, so not a big deal. 

 

I got grilled by 3 different people about my income used to live in Thailand, not one question about the bank interest tax return.   Felt like they were trying to catch me at something dodgy.   I told them the source of my post tax income used for Thailand, and let them know I was aware of the US/Thailand Tax Treaty, and the specific paragraph that covered my income situation.  They seemed to back off a bit after that, but still had me wait while they went away to research it.  20 minutes later, Boss Lady in uniform came back all smiles and said I was in the clear.  The Tax Clerk at the desk then resumed processing my tax return for the bank interest. 

 

Not sure how this latest thing is going to play out.   We'll see. 

[topt]

2 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

Unhelpful and ignorant to say the least. 

Suggest you check out the OP's comments in other taxation threads - which is what mine referred to. You are obviously ignorant of those.......

[55Jay]

1 hour ago, 1FinickyOne said:

The only time I am taxed here is on the interest earned in my Thai Bank Account... 

And VAT. 

You can actually file to get the bank interest tax back. 

[topt]

1 hour ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Why should anyone pay taxes on money that's already been taxed in their home country? That is neither fair nor makes any financial sense. It remains to be seen how this will actually be enforced - if at all - but unlikely that they'll force everybody to file tax returns.

You missed the point of my reply to the OP.  

I don't disagree with your overall comments.

[CartagenaWarlock]

48 minutes ago, MJCM said:

No currency conversion as it was from my THB Balance at Wise.

How do you keep Thai Bhat balance? I did not see that option in my account. I saw Indonesian Rupiah and Indian Rupee but no option for Thai Baht. 

[soi3eddie]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:02 PM, jerrymahoney said:

 

I would think an arrangement as in the OP would have some issues either for extension of a stay or a succession of multiple entry visas, etc.

 

At least, the authorities could question those here for more than 180 days as to the source and transmission of funds necessary to facilitate that stay. Say 65,000 Baht per month, then that's 390,000 Baht and above the taxation threshold. Ok so only, 5% on 150,000 to 300,000 and 10% on 300,000 to 500,000 but still a tax on already taxed income. Hassle of invoking double taxation rules will be enough for many to seek alternative pastures. The Thai government need to clear this up before it goes into effect as many are unsettled by the proposals.

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

1 hour ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Why should anyone pay taxes on money that's already been taxed in their home country? That is neither fair nor makes any financial sense. It remains to be seen how this will actually be enforced - if at all - but unlikely that they'll force everybody to file tax returns.

If the money is already taxed, I assume it will not be taxed again, or you pay Thai taxes and then deduct those taxes from your home country's obligations, as in the case of the US. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

Just now, soi3eddie said:

At least, the authorities could question those here for more than 180 days as to the source and transmission of funds necessary to facilitate that stay. Say 65,000 Baht per month, then that's 390,000 Baht and above the taxation threshold. Ok so only, 5% on 150,000 to 300,000 and 10% on 300,000 to 500,000 but still a tax on already taxed income. Hassle of invoking double taxation rules will be enough for many to seek alternative pastures. The Thai government need to clear this up before it goes into effect as many are unsettled by the proposals.

I am not sure how that will play out in case of a US citizen filing 1040+ schedules. Maybe one pays taxes in year x in Thailand and claims that as tax credit the following year in US tax returns? 

[MJCM]

2 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

How do you keep Thai Bhat balance? I did not see that option in my account. I saw Indonesian Rupiah and Indian Rupee but no option for Thai Baht. 

Maybe it has to do with that my Wise is registered with my Home Country address and that is also the reason I have their “physical” Debit Card. 

[bradiston]

4 hours ago, MJCM said:

 

Wise do charge a lot more then what the Thai Banks charges for usage of their ATM (Thai Bank charges the 2xx THB).

 

Wise ATM Card (last week when I used it) charged more then double that when withdrawing 25k THB and they labelled it as "Our ATM Fee".

 

Ps: No currency conversion as it was from my THB Balance at Wise.

A THB balance at Wise? There's no such thing, is there? Wise doesn't deal in THB. It displays your balance in both THB and the various currencies you hold with them, that's all. I think! I don't have a Wise card though.

 

With a Thai ATM card I'm charged 15 THB for a 20k THB withdrawal, and I have an out of town account.

 

And my tax paid UK income won't be taxed here as the UK and Thailand have a tax agreement covering dual taxation. But, income from untaxed assets abroad could well be taxed once transferred to a Thai account.

 

[MJCM]

30 minutes ago, bradiston said:

A THB balance at Wise? There's no such thing, is there? Wise doesn't deal in THB. It displays your balance in both THB and the various currencies you hold with them, that's all. I think! I don't have a Wise card though.

 

 

 

There is. Again my account is registered in my home country and that is why I also have the Debit card (which I am not going to renew just use their virtual cards). I can even open a GBP balance with its own sort code (I am not from the Uk). I cleared my balances recently after the threatened to freeze the account unless you answered their intrusive questions which I did but just don’t keep any balances with them anymore. 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by MJCM

[bradiston]

6 minutes ago, MJCM said:

There is. Again my account is registered in my home country and that is why I also have the Debit card (which I am not going to renew just use their virtual cards). I can even open a GBP balance with its own sort code (I am not from the Uk). I cleared my balances recently after the threatened to freeze the account unless you answered their intrusive questions which I did but just don’t keep any balances with them anymore. 

 

I have £ and $ accounts with Wise. The £ account has a UK sort code and the $ account a US equivalent in a bank in the US. Does your THB account have a swift code, or the equivalent? Can you transfer into and out of, it? My Wise account is linked to my Thai bank accounts. But Wise make it clear they don't deal in THB.

[MJCM]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Does your THB account have a swift code, or the equivalent? Can you transfer into and out of, it?

nope it doesn’t have a swift code, I can only transfer money in via the wise app, but can withdraw from it (in THB) with my wise debit card or pay for online goods via the virtual cards (withdraws direct from the THB balance).

 

i used it a lot because you have something called “auto conversion”, where you can set a desired rate for EUR -> THB and as soon as the rate was reached they transferred / converted the set amount (which you needed to keep in your EURO balance) automatically to your THB balance. 
 

[bradiston]

5 minutes ago, MJCM said:

nope it doesn’t have a swift code, I can only transfer money in via the wise app, but can withdraw from it (in THB) with my wise debit card or pay for online goods via the virtual cards (withdraws direct from the THB balance).

 

i used it a lot because you have something called “auto conversion”, where you can set a desired rate for EUR -> THB and as soon as the rate was reached they transferred / converted the set amount (which you needed to keep in your EURO balance) automatically to your THB balance. 
 

In the Wise help files under THB, it says

 

"You can’t currently send money from THB."

 

Which makes me careful about sending foreign currency to my Thai bank accounts, as getting it out again via Wise is impossible. I have to use Dee.

[MJCM]

Here a topic about THB balances and jars at Wise

 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

1 hour ago, MJCM said:

Maybe it has to do with that my Wise is registered with my Home Country address and that is also the reason I have their “physical” Debit Card. 

I can see and I can apply and get a physical credit card, but I did not bother to get one as few of my ATM cards are no fee worldwide ATM withdrawal with fraud protection and zero liability. I registered in the US. 

[Gottfrid]

8 hours ago, BangkokHank said:

My money is in a brokerage account in another country, and the account is not accessible by ATM. The only way to get money from the account is to transfer it to a bank account in my name anywhere in the world. Your way of doing it should work for me as well. I could transfer the money from my brokerage account to a bank account in my name in Cambodia, then access that money in Thailand via ATM, thereby bypassing any tax that the Thais would try to impose on it. Thanks very much for the idea.

 

So the obvious question: How difficult is it for someone not living in Cambodia to open a bank account there? I guess it must be possible, as you have done it. What are the requirements to do so?

 

Thanks.

The only thing you need to do is get a one year visa in Cambodia. Price about 300 usd. After that they will allow you to open a bank account. Something that makes you able to alter Thailand and Cambodia with nice trips and no problem of staying. Only need a solid address of residence as well. Talk to a guest house, and give 200 usd per year and they will let you use their address.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Gottfrid

[StayinThailand2much]

6 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

The only time I am taxed here is on the interest earned in my Thai Bank Account... 

 

Not to forget VAT for any goods or services...

Edited December 4, 2023 by StayinThailand2much