Israel and Hamas fight house-to-house battles across Gaza

[CharlieH]

 

UN secretary general says situation ‘fast deteriorating into catastrophe with potentially irreversible implications’

• Israel-Hamas war – live updates

 

Israeli forces and Hamas are fighting house-to-house battles along the length of the Gaza Strip, with devastating consequences for the civilian population amid a complete collapse in humanitarian relief.

As the war intensified on Wednesday, the UN secretary general, António Guterres, invoked a rarely used clause in the UN charter to raise the issue on his own initiative before the security council, to warn that the conflict “may aggravate existing threats to international peace and security”.

 

“We are facing a severe risk of collapse of the humanitarian system,” Guterres wrote in a letter to the council. “The situation is fast deteriorating into a catastrophe with potentially irreversible implications for Palestinians as a whole and for peace and security in the region.”

 

He added: “Amid constant bombardment by the Israel Defense Forces, and without shelter or the essentials to survive, I expect public order to completely break down soon due to the desperate conditions, rendering even limited humanitarian assistance impossible.

“An even worse situation could unfold, including epidemic diseases and increased pressure for mass displacement into neighboring countries.”

As the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have been fighting their way through badly bomb-damaged urban areas in northern and southern Gaza, Hamas has increasingly relied on improvised bombs to inflict casualties and slow down the assault.

Gaza’s hospitals have reported a flood of civilian dead and injured, many of them women and children, as medical supplies dwindle, while the spread of ground combat to the south has stopped any delivery of humanitarian aid much farther than the Rafah crossing point with Egypt.

 

FULL STORY

 

[thaibeachlovers]

It's getting to the stage that western governments are unable to turn a blind eye to the carnage and have to demand a ceasefire with delivery of aid, despite their desire to support israel, or appear complicit.

The question then is what will they do if israel ignores them, ignores the UN, and carries on?

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

while the spread of ground combat to the south has stopped any delivery of humanitarian aid much farther than the Rafah crossing point with Egypt.

Yes. Despite israel telling the Palestinians to relocate to the south where they would be "safe", that was a lie and nowhere is safe from attack now. The israelis are even assaulting Khan Yunis with tanks, which is in the south.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's getting to the stage that western governments are unable to turn a blind eye to the carnage and have to demand a ceasefire with delivery of aid, despite their desire to support israel, or appear complicit.

The question then is what will they do if israel ignores them, ignores the UN, and carries on?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Other than in your post - is there any actual move such as you claim?

Most times when the UN calls for something and parties ignore it, nothing much happens, really.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yes. Despite israel telling the Palestinians to relocate to the south where they would be "safe", that was a lie and nowhere is safe from attack now. The israelis are even assaulting Khan Yunis with tanks, which is in the south.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

The evacuation to the south of the strip was in the context of the fighting which took place in the north. During the fighting there, most of the people who evacuated were, indeed, safe. The fighting moved to the south, so obviously things are different. That said, Israel actually supplies civilians with notices as to where operations will take place - even at the cost of Hamas being aware of it as well. I don't think other armies do that, anywhere.

 

Obviously, you do not have any issues with Hamas keeping this on while Palestinian civilians die, nor does Hamas offer them shelter. For you, it's only Israel.

[paul1804]

Hamas needs to be held accountable for the atrocities they recently committed, the brutal treatment they imposed upon female hostages is a fair indication of their morals & integrity, they do not deserve to be able to coexist with normal people. The Palestinians must accept if their elected leaders carry on in such an inhumane manner then they too should suffer the consequences of war. Before you criticise the IRD below are some interesting facts published by another reader on this forum. 

 

1. Expulsion of "Palestinians" or the myth of the Nakba. The primary cause of the departure of Arabs was WAR, war declared by the Arabs themselves. In 1948, did the Arab nations not declare war on Israel and say they would  wipe it off the map? In 1967, did not the massed  military of the pan Arab attack force not promise to drive the jews into the sea? Did the Arab leadership not tell the Arabs in Israel to leave so that they would not be harmed as the Arab armies purged Israel of its Jews?  You bet there were innocent Arab victims, that's the side effect of war.  What is your position on the  almost same number of Jewish people who were  expelled from Arab countries, their land and all their assets seized, are you denying those expulsions? Yes, the Israelis took advantage of the upheaval, that is what happens in wars where the larger nations seek to wipe out the small nation. We saw this on a larger scale in the partition of India and Pakistan, and we saw this in the  partition of Ethiopia and Eritrea, and again with South Sudan and Sudan, and we see it ongoing in the country now called Yemen.

2. All these UN Resolutions you reference, please be more specific. The Arab dominated  general assembly has a history of passing discriminatory motions. One  of the best was sponsored by Iran condemning Israeli human rights right after Iran strung up 2  boys from a crane in a public square for alleged homosexuality. Israel does not have the death penalty and doesn't persecute teenage boys for alleged consensual acts.

3. You reference  Gaza as a concentration camp. You obviously have no idea of what a concentration camp is. The citizens until the recent war had ready access to Egypt. Was the border not open with Egypt? There was no restriction on the trade of food, medicines and most personal use items. The locals were allowed to enter Israel for work and for medical care if needed. It seems that the restrictions were not particularly difficult to circumvent as Hamas imported thousands of missiles, rockets and  artillery pieces. It was able to fully arm multiple death squads and to build a sophisticated  underground system of reinforced concrete tunnels and bunkers. 

4. You reference US military aid to Israel. In 2021 the following summary was published, please advise if this is True or false;

- From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly US $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone.  UNRWA, which also provides funding and staffing for schools, health services and food aid.

- Egypt sponsored almost US$500 million in economic development and projects for the period of 2021 forward.

— Qatar has provided in excess of US$1.3 billion in cash aid to Gaza since 2012 for construction, health services and agriculture. 

— The Palestinian Authority filed statements that it  paid US$1.7 billion to Gaza government workers  

- The EU provides a US $80 million standalone aid budget to Gaza annually

- The USA  gave almost US$100 million in aid to Gaza (and  PLA projects  in West Bank)

— The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.

Based upon historical evidence, inmates of concentration camps starved to death. How then is it possible that Gaza has one of the highest rates of obesity in the region?  42.0% of adult females, and 29.5% of adult males are considered obese. Why is diabetes, an affliction of financially well off societies so prevalent? 1 in 5  Gaza adults has Type II diabetes, meanwhile in war afflicted Africa, diabetes is a rarity.

 

 

[NickyLouie]

4 minutes ago, paul1804 said:

 

Hamas needs to be held accountable for the atrocities they recently committed, the brutal treatment they imposed upon female hostages is a fair indication of their morals & integrity, they do not deserve to be able to coexist with normal people. The Palestinians must accept if their elected leaders carry on in such an inhumane manner then they too should suffer the consequences of war. Before you criticise the IRD below are some interesting facts published by another reader on this forum. 

 

 

 

 

As Hamas continues to use them as human shield's. 

 

Other Arab nations want nothing to do with Palestinian people after the <deleted> they pulled in Jordan and Egypt, but love pointing the finger at Israel.

 

Hopefully soon the flooding of the tunnels drowns these disgusting rats.

 

[Purdey]

The United Nations (UN) was established after the Second World War with the purpose of preventing the recurrence of the wars of the first half of the twentieth century, which brought great grief to mankind, and to safeguard international peace and security. They had one job and failed.

 

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, CharlieH said:

“We are facing a severe risk of collapse of the humanitarian system,” Guterres wrote in a letter to the council.

You should be directing that to Hamas, here they are with their guns hijacking trucks full of aid while a local group of Palestinians look on throwing stones at them and being shot at.

 

"The dramatic scenes as local Gazans throw stones and withstand gunfire from Hamas agents in order to stop them from looting new humanitarian aid shipments that crossed in from Rafah."

 

 

[placnx]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's getting to the stage that western governments are unable to turn a blind eye to the carnage and have to demand a ceasefire with delivery of aid, despite their desire to support israel, or appear complicit.

The question then is what will they do if israel ignores them, ignores the UN, and carries on?

It's still early, but it seems likely that sooner or later some countries will consider sanctions as the only way to respond to such recalcitrance.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, paul1804 said:

How then is it possible that Gaza has one of the highest rates of obesity in the region? 

 

Diabetes is not just a chronic illness in well off societies. Diabetes is also associated with poorer countries due to bad diet. lack of exercise and medical care, Gaza being a well known example.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, paul1804 said:

 

Hamas needs to be held accountable for the atrocities they recently committed, the brutal treatment they imposed upon female hostages is a fair indication of their morals & integrity, they do not deserve to be able to coexist with normal people. The Palestinians must accept if their elected leaders carry on in such an inhumane manner then they too should suffer the consequences of war. Before you criticise the IRD below are some interesting facts published by another reader on this forum. 

 

 

1. Expulsion of "Palestinians" or the myth of the Nakba. The primary cause of the departure of Arabs was WAR, war declared by the Arabs themselves. In 1948, did the Arab nations not declare war on Israel and say they would  wipe it off the map? In 1967, did not the massed  military of the pan Arab attack force not promise to drive the jews into the sea? Did the Arab leadership not tell the Arabs in Israel to leave so that they would not be harmed as the Arab armies purged Israel of its Jews?  You bet there were innocent Arab victims, that's the side effect of war.  What is your position on the  almost same number of Jewish people who were  expelled from Arab countries, their land and all their assets seized, are you denying those expulsions? Yes, the Israelis took advantage of the upheaval, that is what happens in wars where the larger nations seek to wipe out the small nation. We saw this on a larger scale in the partition of India and Pakistan, and we saw this in the  partition of Ethiopia and Eritrea, and again with South Sudan and Sudan, and we see it ongoing in the country now called Yemen.

2. All these UN Resolutions you reference, please be more specific. The Arab dominated  general assembly has a history of passing discriminatory motions. One  of the best was sponsored by Iran condemning Israeli human rights right after Iran strung up 2  boys from a crane in a public square for alleged homosexuality. Israel does not have the death penalty and doesn't persecute teenage boys for alleged consensual acts.

3. You reference  Gaza as a concentration camp. You obviously have no idea of what a concentration camp is. The citizens until the recent war had ready access to Egypt. Was the border not open with Egypt? There was no restriction on the trade of food, medicines and most personal use items. The locals were allowed to enter Israel for work and for medical care if needed. It seems that the restrictions were not particularly difficult to circumvent as Hamas imported thousands of missiles, rockets and  artillery pieces. It was able to fully arm multiple death squads and to build a sophisticated  underground system of reinforced concrete tunnels and bunkers. 

4. You reference US military aid to Israel. In 2021 the following summary was published, please advise if this is True or false;

- From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly US $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone.  UNRWA, which also provides funding and staffing for schools, health services and food aid.

- Egypt sponsored almost US$500 million in economic development and projects for the period of 2021 forward.

— Qatar has provided in excess of US$1.3 billion in cash aid to Gaza since 2012 for construction, health services and agriculture. 

— The Palestinian Authority filed statements that it  paid US$1.7 billion to Gaza government workers  

- The EU provides a US $80 million standalone aid budget to Gaza annually

- The USA  gave almost US$100 million in aid to Gaza (and  PLA projects  in West Bank)

— The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.

Based upon historical evidence, inmates of concentration camps starved to death. How then is it possible that Gaza has one of the highest rates of obesity in the region?  42.0% of adult females, and 29.5% of adult males are considered obese. Why is diabetes, an affliction of financially well off societies so prevalent? 1 in 5  Gaza adults has Type II diabetes, meanwhile in war afflicted Africa, diabetes is a rarity.

 

 

Answers to your propaganda (hasbara):

1. Archives coming out reveal that the campaign to expel Palestinians was premeditated. BTW It began in 1947. Arabs mobilized in response.

2. How can Arabs dominate the General Assembly (GA)? Anyway, at the beginning of this conflict, GA adopted Resolution 194. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_194  There were many after that, but SC Resolution 242 is the most relevant to now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

Readers - note the propagandistic whataboutism in this extended rant.

3. Many have declared Gaza to be an "open air prison". I have not seen the term "concentration camp" used. It's been reported that Israel controls food imports to restricy caloric intake:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

There are ulterior motives for allowing around 1% of Gazans to work in Israel, such as recruiting informants.

4. Please show a link or reference for the statistics which you cite. Some seem possibly true. As for prisons (not "concentration camps"), hopefully starvation is not the norm. As for incidence of diabetes in Gaza, there is a study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7699327/ Unbalanced diet seems to be the problem: too much sugar.

[Grusa]

Without reference to the comments on this or any other forum, my attitude to this conflict and its precursors has not changed.

 

"A plague on both your houses!"

 

The world will be a better place without fanatics and extremists, of any religious, political, gender-related or other persuasion.

 

Sadly, innocents will inevitably suffer collateral damage, because the extremists on all sides quite deliberately involve them.

 

Gaia does not care. The world will wag on without any of them..... or you.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, placnx said:

It's still early, but it seems likely that sooner or later some countries will consider sanctions as the only way to respond to such recalcitrance.

 

Likely how? Why? Nothing. Just more wishful thinking on your part.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, placnx said:

Answers to your propaganda (hasbara):

1. Archives coming out reveal that the campaign to expel Palestinians was premeditated. BTW It began in 1947. Arabs mobilized in response.

2. How can Arabs dominate the General Assembly (GA)? Anyway, at the beginning of this conflict, GA adopted Resolution 194. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_194  There were many after that, but SC Resolution 242 is the most relevant to now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

Readers - note the propagandistic whataboutism in this extended rant.

3. Many have declared Gaza to be an "open air prison". I have not seen the term "concentration camp" used. It's been reported that Israel controls food imports to restricy caloric intake:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

There are ulterior motives for allowing around 1% of Gazans to work in Israel, such as recruiting informants.

4. Please show a link or reference for the statistics which you cite. Some seem possibly true. As for prisons (not "concentration camps"), hopefully starvation is not the norm. As for incidence of diabetes in Gaza, there is a study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7699327/ Unbalanced diet seems to be the problem: too much sugar.

 

There were numerous comments referencing the Gaza Strip as a 'concentration camp' made on these topics and past one. That you deny it, or claim not to have seen any doesn't change that. Even the 'open prison' bit is more about sensationalism. It's not like the Gaza Strip was always under a blockade - it is in place because of Hamas actions and agenda. Also, it is maintained by Egypt as well.

 

If you want to claim that UNGA and other UN bodies are objective, bias free and do not routinely push anti-Israeli agendas - that's your choice. It does not reflect reality.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Purdey said:

The United Nations (UN) was established after the Second World War with the purpose of preventing the recurrence of the wars of the first half of the twentieth century, which brought great grief to mankind, and to safeguard international peace and security. They had one job and failed.

 

Not just failed at that task, but failed abysmally.

Allowing one country to veto any penalty for something most of the world's countries consider an atrocity is itself an atrocity, IMO.

 

However, despite Russia's veto power, western countries still managed to penalise Russia over Ukraine, but their refusal to penalise israel for the ( IMO ) same crimes will come back to haunt them, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, placnx said:

It's still early, but it seems likely that sooner or later some countries will consider sanctions as the only way to respond to such recalcitrance.

Sooner the better. Unfortunately I think western citizens will take action before their governments act, with such as boycotts of israeli products and unions refusing to load weapons bound for israel.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, paul1804 said:

 

Hamas needs to be held accountable for the atrocities they recently committed, the brutal treatment they imposed upon female hostages is a fair indication of their morals & integrity, they do not deserve to be able to coexist with normal people. The Palestinians must accept if their elected leaders carry on in such an inhumane manner then they too should suffer the consequences of war. Before you criticise the IRD below are some interesting facts published by another reader on this forum. 

 

 

1. Expulsion of "Palestinians" or the myth of the Nakba. The primary cause of the departure of Arabs was WAR, war declared by the Arabs themselves. In 1948, did the Arab nations not declare war on Israel and say they would  wipe it off the map? In 1967, did not the massed  military of the pan Arab attack force not promise to drive the jews into the sea? Did the Arab leadership not tell the Arabs in Israel to leave so that they would not be harmed as the Arab armies purged Israel of its Jews?  You bet there were innocent Arab victims, that's the side effect of war.  What is your position on the  almost same number of Jewish people who were  expelled from Arab countries, their land and all their assets seized, are you denying those expulsions? Yes, the Israelis took advantage of the upheaval, that is what happens in wars where the larger nations seek to wipe out the small nation. We saw this on a larger scale in the partition of India and Pakistan, and we saw this in the  partition of Ethiopia and Eritrea, and again with South Sudan and Sudan, and we see it ongoing in the country now called Yemen.

2. All these UN Resolutions you reference, please be more specific. The Arab dominated  general assembly has a history of passing discriminatory motions. One  of the best was sponsored by Iran condemning Israeli human rights right after Iran strung up 2  boys from a crane in a public square for alleged homosexuality. Israel does not have the death penalty and doesn't persecute teenage boys for alleged consensual acts.

3. You reference  Gaza as a concentration camp. You obviously have no idea of what a concentration camp is. The citizens until the recent war had ready access to Egypt. Was the border not open with Egypt? There was no restriction on the trade of food, medicines and most personal use items. The locals were allowed to enter Israel for work and for medical care if needed. It seems that the restrictions were not particularly difficult to circumvent as Hamas imported thousands of missiles, rockets and  artillery pieces. It was able to fully arm multiple death squads and to build a sophisticated  underground system of reinforced concrete tunnels and bunkers. 

4. You reference US military aid to Israel. In 2021 the following summary was published, please advise if this is True or false;

- From 2014-2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly US $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone.  UNRWA, which also provides funding and staffing for schools, health services and food aid.

- Egypt sponsored almost US$500 million in economic development and projects for the period of 2021 forward.

— Qatar has provided in excess of US$1.3 billion in cash aid to Gaza since 2012 for construction, health services and agriculture. 

— The Palestinian Authority filed statements that it  paid US$1.7 billion to Gaza government workers  

- The EU provides a US $80 million standalone aid budget to Gaza annually

- The USA  gave almost US$100 million in aid to Gaza (and  PLA projects  in West Bank)

— The U.S. has spent at least $5.5 million in Gaza this year on cash assistance and health care, in addition to contributing $90 million to UNRWA operations in Gaza and the occupied West Bank.

Based upon historical evidence, inmates of concentration camps starved to death. How then is it possible that Gaza has one of the highest rates of obesity in the region?  42.0% of adult females, and 29.5% of adult males are considered obese. Why is diabetes, an affliction of financially well off societies so prevalent? 1 in 5  Gaza adults has Type II diabetes, meanwhile in war afflicted Africa, diabetes is a rarity.

 

 

There are so many errors in that propaganda piece that it would take too long to respond them all individually, so I'll just say that I disagree with almost all of it.

[Danderman123]

21 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's getting to the stage that western governments are unable to turn a blind eye to the carnage and have to demand a ceasefire with delivery of aid, despite their desire to support israel, or appear complicit.

The question then is what will they do if israel ignores them, ignores the UN, and carries on?

The carnage would end immediately if Hamas were to surrender.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not just failed at that task, but failed abysmally.

Allowing one country to veto any penalty for something most of the world's countries consider an atrocity is itself an atrocity, IMO.

 

However, despite Russia's veto power, western countries still managed to penalise Russia over Ukraine, but their refusal to penalise israel for the ( IMO ) same crimes will come back to haunt them, IMO.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

I don't know that 'most' countries strongly object to the veto system, other than in cases where it runs against their national interest. Your further claim that 'mos' countries consider it an 'atrocity' is nonsense. I don't think that there are even many references to the veto right as such. More of your fact free, fantasy stuff there.

 

Countries can act separately of the UN. Nothing new there. As for your 'comparison' - you would, maybe, have a point had Ukraine carried out a massive terrorist attack on Russian civilians, killing and raping many of them - thus starting a war. Since this did not happen over there, but did happen on 7/10 - yet another nothing comment from a Putin fan/Israel hater.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooner the better. Unfortunately I think western citizens will take action before their governments act, with such as boycotts of israeli products and unions refusing to load weapons bound for israel.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Sure. Boycott. BDS. How long this been going on? What actual effect did it achieve? Not much, other than directly serving Israel's right-wing elements. Every topic like this it gets pulled out, aired, and much hopes invested that 'this time...' - yeah, well.

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There are so many errors in that propaganda piece that it would take too long to respond them all individually, so I'll just say that I disagree with almost all of it.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

so many errors in that propaganda piece

 

That would nicely sum the bulk of your posts on international topics here.

[Wobblybob]

18 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Diabetes is not just a chronic illness in well off societies. Diabetes is also associated with poorer countries due to bad diet. lack of exercise and medical care, Gaza being a well known example.

Some of the diabetic Gazans you must be referring to?

 

 

[Stargeezr]

Hamas is still hiding amongst Gaza people and sending their rockets from areas

that are near places where the population is at as well. how can I have sympathy for Palistinians

if Hamas is still being the terrorists that they are, and fighting the way they are? 

Good Luck to the Israel military , the thought of using tons of sea water to flood the Hamas tunnels

sounds like a great idea. IMO

  

[nobodysfriend]

Extremists fight extremists and the result is that normal , non militant people suffer and die  .

On both sides .

A dirty shame that it was never possible to find a peaceful solution for everybody ( by making compromises ) .

Nobody is willing to compromise for a tolerant coexistence , the result is 15000 dead innocent people .

That includes the massacred festival goers in Israel .

Sad .

 

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

Extremists fight extremists and the result is that normal , non militant people suffer and die  .

On both sides .

A dirty shame that it was never possible to find a peaceful solution for everybody ( by making compromises ) .

Nobody is willing to compromise for a tolerant coexistence , the result is 15000 dead innocent people .

That includes the massacred festival goers in Israel .

Sad .

 

 

Unless you consider armies in general to be 'extremist' not sure what you're on about. The IDF is a national army (and one heavily relying on reserve duty personnel) - as such, you'll find a whole range of political views among soldiers. I get that you wanted to make a 'balanced' argument, but it's still wrong.

 

And no, not 15,000 innocent dead people. This figure would include Hamas men killed as well.

[Nick Carter icp]

42 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

Extremists fight extremists and the result is that normal , non militant people suffer and die  .

On both sides .

A dirty shame that it was never possible to find a peaceful solution for everybody ( by making compromises ) .

Nobody is willing to compromise for a tolerant coexistence , the result is 15000 dead innocent people .

That includes the massacred festival goers in Israel .

Sad .

 

 

   Out of respect for the deceased , I don't think that you should put the festival attendees casualty figure in with the Hamas terrorists casualty figure and label it as "dead innocent people" .

   The Hamas war criminals who committed atrocities on October 7 th are not "innocent people" 

[nobodysfriend]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Unless you consider armies in general to be 'extremist' not sure what you're on about. The IDF is a national army (and one heavily relying on reserve duty personnel) - as such, you'll find a whole range of political views among soldiers. I get that you wanted to make a 'balanced' argument, but it's still wrong.

 

And no, not 15,000 innocent dead people. This figure would include Hamas men killed as well.

 

I consider Israel's policy to be " extremist " under the current Nethanyahu government . ( settlers ) . This government is giving the directives to the IDF , who , following orders , becomes extremist as well . Of course , I get your point , not all individual soldiers are extremists ,  but , what they are ordered to do ( destruction of Gaza ) is extreme .

The destruction is extreme , the death toll of the civilian population is extremely high and unnecessary in my point of view .

To reach their goal , the complete destruction of Hamas ( illusory anyway ), the Israelis are not shy to take extreme measures .

If you deny this , you are blind .

 

" Hamas in Gaza after a cross-border rampage by the enclave's ruling Islamist group on Oct. 7. At least 17,177 Palestinians have been killed since then, according to Gaza Health Ministry figures, while 1,200 people were killed in the Hamas incursion into Israel, according to Israeli tallies. "

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/

 

It will be difficult to know exactly how many active Hamas members have been killed , but , most dead people were no active members of the Hamas .

 

 

 

[nobodysfriend]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

The Hamas war criminals who committed atrocities on October 7 th are not "innocent people" 

 

But most of the casualties in the Gaza strip were ...

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

But most of the casualties in the Gaza strip were ...

The Hamas leaders are fine with that, in fact they state the sacrifices are necessary. The terrorist fighters are also ok with it, using them as human shields, considering that around 75% of those in Gaza support Hamas then being a martyr is not so bad for some. I real pity of course to the real innocents, very young children, babies etc

 

"A nurse in Shifa hospital in Gaza happily announcing that her husband became a martyr. Look at her genuine happiness as she is hugging her daughter 👇 We will have peace only when they value life more than death."