Israel and Hamas fight house-to-house battles across Gaza

[Danderman123]

First pics ‘show Israeli soldiers preparing pumps’ to flood 300 MILES of Hamas tunnels under Gaza & flush out terrorists

 

 

[Morch]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Your links are IMO pathetic, and do you believe everything you read without checking that it's not made up?

 

If they were actually fighters, their weapons and webbing would have been put on display, but as they were not fighters they didn't have any, did they. You really have to do better than that if you want us to take you seriously.

If that's how israelis treat unarmed civilians, I am certain that no Hamas fighter will ever surrender unless too wounded to resist.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

What's pathetic is to adhere to a single news source, insist on it as being reliable, while in fact it is a government-controlled operation. And more to the point, same government playing host to leadership of Hamas. Considering AJ never reports things in a critical way as far as Qatar interests go, your comments are either blinkered or contrived. Seems like you are perfectly willing to believe everything you see on there, without checking anything much. As for making up stuff - you over-active imagination is on full display on across many topics.

 

I get it that you support Hamas's resolve to keep fighting to the last civilian killed.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you know that you'll be tortured and likely come to a sticky end if captured you would probably fight to the death unless wounded too badly to resist.

 

 

You posted no valid link about fighters in the south surrendering. The article saying that they were in Khan Yunis, is probably of the same men arrested in the north. It's all on same vdo as seen on Al Jazeera.

If it were actually true, the IDF would be having a news conference about it ( like they did about the civilians arrested in the north ), which you could link to, but you haven't have you, as likely one doesn't exist. If Hamas fighters were actually surrendering, the Americans would be spreading the word with glee as how the valiant israelis were winning the conflict, but they ain't, are they?

 

However, I will agree with something from one of your links

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1701980659-over-150-hamas-terrorists-surrender-to-idf-forces-in-khan-yunis

Ari YoDec 08, 2023

...................................... Now, no one is going to like this, however, The IDF and their families are losing soldiers that are approaching (in numbers) just about the same amount Israel has had returned in hostages (or what should be left in hostages, look at it either way). The point, sadly, fallen soldiers don’t return home to their families. And everyone wants everyone home with their family.

 

 

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

More of your assumptions that are based on nothing whatsoever.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and yet you have no link from a reputable source quoting an israeli or American official spokesman saying that Hamas fighters are surrendering in the south.

 

You really will have to do better than an israeli propaganda vdo from the Daily Mail. The only bit in the entire vdo that related to fighters "surrendering" was a few seconds of a couple of men crawling out of a hole in the ground, which could have been anyone, and some ammunition which could have belonged to anyone.

The vdo also contained footage of the so called Hamas tunnels in the hospital which turned out to reportedly be a lift shaft and a tunnel apparently built by the israelis themselves.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Sure.

Two armed men coming out from an underground shaft, shouting in Arabic, while soldiers shouting at them in Hebrew - this could happen anywhere and could be anyone. Next thing you'll claim it was filmed in a studio. Your comment about the tunnels is intentionally misleading, and the clip shows more than one of these, anyway.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I've seen nothing about Hamas surrendering. If you are so sure they are then you should post a link about it. It's not up to me to verify your claims of fact.

 

If I despise links so much, why do I post so many?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Links were provided. That you insist on denying this, or deny the details doesn't mean a whole lot, considering your obvious bias and blinkered reliance on AJ for information.

 

As for links - no, you don't. More often than not you either claim to have seem something on AJ, without a link. Other times you just make up stuff. Supporting comments with links is not the hallmark of your posting style. Not on these topics, not the Ukraine war ones, not on USA politics discussions or pretty much anything else. 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Do you know something about him to say that he knows more than the rest of us?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

I don't know much about most posters lives, backgrounds, habits outside the forum and so on. I tend to judge posters on content and posting style. For example, I do not dismiss the notion that you might be a wonderful person in real life.

 

As for my posts - whine as much as you like, but yes - I think I am more informed than most on here (regarding these issues, not on all matters), certainly yourself. Also, despite you and other posters going on about 'apologist' and 'propaganda' - many of my actual comments about Israeli policy and actions are not supportive. It depends on the context. Specifically, when it comes to this war, less issues. Topics relating to the West Bank, for example, different views.

 

Compare that with your own all out support for Hamas and the Palestinians. Then look for a sock.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Israel to hold Nuremberg-style war crimes trials for Hamas terrorists behind the October 7 massacre

 

Israel is going hold trials for those behind the October 7 terrorism.

and the ICC will hopefully be holding trials for the israeli leadership for their many war crimes.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and the ICC will hopefully be holding trials for the israeli leadership for their many war crimes.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

ICC proceedings are more likely to find Hamas actions as 'war crimes', and leaders responsible. Their actions are more clear cut when it comes to that, compared with Israel. Granted, if Hamas leaders were tried and sentenced in Israel, than there would be less chances of that happening. There would still be Hamas leadership in Qatar available, though.

[placnx]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:52 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Why would the Settlers have to be removed ?

How haven't you seen what settlers have been doing, taking advantage of the world's attention being diverted to Gaza? Ethnic cleansing, murder, arson, etc. The settlers presence is illegal under international law, and is an impediment to the two-state solution. Israel created the problem, so it is up to Israel to undo it.

[placnx]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:01 PM, Morch said:

 

On that...pffft. It's just a catchy slogan which ignores Hamas as a factor in this.

The Gaza Strip was not always under blockade. This came about because of something.

Wonder what that could be.

It was not under blockade when IDF occupied it (1967-2005). Netanyahu cultivated Hamas as a counterweight to the PA, in order to keep the Palestinians politically divided.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, placnx said:

It was not under blockade when IDF occupied it (1967-2005). Netanyahu cultivated Hamas as a counterweight to the PA, in order to keep the Palestinians politically divided.

 

Spin it as much as you like, the blockade came about as a result of Hamas agenda and actions.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

How haven't you seen what settlers have been doing, taking advantage of the world's attention being diverted to Gaza? Ethnic cleansing, murder, arson, etc. The settlers presence is illegal under international law, and is an impediment to the two-state solution. Israel created the problem, so it is up to Israel to undo it.

 

   Israel is quite happy and willing to allow  2 million Arab Palestinians who are predominately Muslims to live in Israel and they have full rights the same rights as Israeli Jews and have full citizenship , ant Palestinian state needs to offer the same rights to Jews living there . 

   The Israeli state accepts 2 million Palestinian  Arab Muslims living within its borders .

A Palestinian state would have to accept 500  000 Jews living within its borders , unless they want to continue to participate in ethnic cleansing of Jews from the land 

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel is quite happy and willing to allow  2 million Arab Palestinians who are predominately Muslims to live in Israel and they have full rights the same rights as Israeli Jews and have full citizenship , ant Palestinian state needs to offer the same rights to Jews living there . 

   The Israeli state accepts 2 million Palestinian  Arab Muslims living within its borders .

A Palestinian state would have to accept 500  000 Jews living within its borders , unless they want to continue to participate in ethnic cleansing of Jews from the land 

It's obvious a Palestinian state would accept NO Jews. Well, appropriately named Norman Finkelstein maybe (the grand Wizard of self hating Jews). 

It's incorrect to call Israel an apartheid state as you've explained.

But that's about Israeli citizens.

There isn't really any good defense for the west bank settlement movement.

For there to be any hope of any kind of transition to a two state solution, at least some of those settlements are going to need to be dismantled. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Jingthing

[Morch]

36 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel is quite happy and willing to allow  2 million Arab Palestinians who are predominately Muslims to live in Israel and they have full rights the same rights as Israeli Jews and have full citizenship , ant Palestinian state needs to offer the same rights to Jews living there . 

   The Israeli state accepts 2 million Palestinian  Arab Muslims living within its borders .

A Palestinian state would have to accept 500  000 Jews living within its borders , unless they want to continue to participate in ethnic cleansing of Jews from the land 

 

The Palestinians would not 'have to' anything. It would not be in Israel's interests to have it's citizens in the Palestinian State's territory. All the more chances for things going pear shaped.

[Neeranam]

56 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's incorrect to call Israel an apartheid state as you've explained.

So you know better than Amnesty International who say the opposite 😳

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

So you know better than Amnesty International who say the opposite 😳

 

Amnesty needs to make such reports in order to justify its existence.

Amnesty is populated by people who often share certain political leanings and views.

Amnesty relies on local staff, volunteers, and testimonies to generate it's reports.

 

This doesn't mean all of their reports are biased, flawed or incorrect.

But it does mean that some context need to be applied.

Same as every source.

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

So you know better than Amnesty International who say the opposite 😳

This Amnesty @Neeranam?

 

Any Excuse to Attack Israel: Amnesty International’s Propaganda on Gaza

Amnesty International is among the most active NGOs that systematically promote demonization of Israel , BDS, and antisemitism – under the facade of universal human rights. In recent years, this bias and discrimination has been reflected in its “apartheid” campaign, extensive efforts to exclude antisemitism as a human rights concern, and undermining the implementation of the International Holocaust Remembrance Association (IHRA) definition to combat hatred of Jews. 

In the wake of the barbaric Hamas massacre of 1,500 Israelis and the kidnapping of more than 200, Amnesty has exploited these events to amplify demonization and delegitimization of the Jewish state. 

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/amnesty-internationals-propaganda-on-gaza/

[Rimmer]

Off topic post with unapproved link removed

Please see our Community Standards

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

This Amnesty @Neeranam?

 

Any Excuse to Attack Israel: Amnesty International’s Propaganda on Gaza

Amnesty International is among the most active NGOs that systematically promote demonization of Israel , BDS, and antisemitism – under the facade of universal human rights. In recent years, this bias and discrimination has been reflected in its “apartheid” campaign, extensive efforts to exclude antisemitism as a human rights concern, and undermining the implementation of the International Holocaust Remembrance Association (IHRA) definition to combat hatred of Jews. 

In the wake of the barbaric Hamas massacre of 1,500 Israelis and the kidnapping of more than 200, Amnesty has exploited these events to amplify demonization and delegitimization of the Jewish state. 

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/amnesty-internationals-propaganda-on-gaza/

Analysis / Bias

NGO Monitor has faced criticism and has been labeled a right-wing pro-Israeli group. For example, in 2013, a member of NGO Monitor was caught editing their own Wikipedia page, which is not allowed. Wikipedia then banned him as an editor. Further, the founder Gerald Steinburg worked for the Israeli government after the formation of the NGO, a seemingly obvious conflict of interest.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ngo-monitor-bias/

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Analysis / Bias

NGO Monitor has faced criticism and has been labeled a right-wing pro-Israeli group. For example, in 2013, a member of NGO Monitor was caught editing their own Wikipedia page, which is not allowed. Wikipedia then banned him as an editor. Further, the founder Gerald Steinburg worked for the Israeli government after the formation of the NGO, a seemingly obvious conflict of interest.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ngo-monitor-bias/

And?

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

It's obvious a Palestinian state would accept NO Jews. Well, appropriately named Norman Finkelstein maybe (the grand Wizard of self hating Jews). 

It's incorrect to call Israel an apartheid state as you've explained.

But that's about Israeli citizens.

There isn't really any good defense for the west bank settlement movement.

For there to be any hope of any kind of transition to a two state solution, at least some of those settlements are going to need to be dismantled. 

The post you replied to is wrong, Arabs in Israel do not have equal rights.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2014/12/3/we-are-not-citizens-with-equal-rights

 

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The Palestinians would not 'have to' anything. It would not be in Israel's interests to have it's citizens in the Palestinian State's territory. All the more chances for things going pear shaped.

 

 

   As if things aren't pear shaped already .

I am from the U.K and we adhere to democracy and all living together   and like I've been drinking beers since lunch time 

I'fll finsisne this off tomorrow 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

The post you replied to is wrong, Arabs in Israel do not have equal rights.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2014/12/3/we-are-not-citizens-with-equal-rights

 

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

 

 

Even if one accepted your opinion (such as it is) and them links without question - what is the relevance to the current situation? How does it relate to the Gaza Strip? To the Hamas 7/10 attack and all that followed?

 

Hamas is not about equal rights to Arab citizens of Israel, and considering it's own Charter, the vision it pushes is tenfold worse (for Jews/Israelis) if it ever comes to pass - so they ain't really anti-apartheid social justice warriors either.

 

There are good reasons to bash Israel. But this topic is about the fighting in the Gaza Strip.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Morch

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

   As if things aren't pear shaped already .

I am from the U.K and we adhere to democracy and all living together   and like I've been drinking beers since lunch time 

I'fll finsisne this off tomorrow 

 

The purpose of peace agreement and treaties is to either improve things or to stop them from deteriorating. So any peace agreement would include the best possible ways to head-off potential conflagrations, conflicts and so on.

 

Given their ideology and religious beliefs, them illegal settlers which would choose to stay (if the option was available) will almost surly seek to cause trouble, and derail the chances for peace. The other side's nutters would, similarly, be all too wiling for some quality revenge time, and so on. On top of that, seeing as how their presence there is illegal, allowing them to stay will essentially reward the crime.

 

I don't think that there's any semi-workable plan which includes what you suggest.

 

Maybe them beers clouded your perception, but we're not discussing the UK. This is the ME. Different rules apply.

 

Quote

I'fll finsisne this off tomorrow 

 

Classic....

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:52 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Why would the Settlers have to be removed ?

Are you actually trying to say that the settlers have a right to be on Palestinian land?

If so, why?

[The Fugitive]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:55 AM, Danderman123 said:

The carnage would end immediately if Hamas were to surrender.

That would leave only Hezbollah and Houthi (officially) rooting for Palestinians. Israel will continue building their illegal settlements in the West Bank until there's only the Gaza strip remaining. 

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

That would leave only Hezbollah and Houthi (officially) rooting for Palestinians. Israel will continue building their illegal settlements in the West Bank until there's only the Gaza strip remaining. 

 

Maybe

But it would mean the bombings, the fighting, the death and destruction being stopped.

That's the context.

 

Hamas seems to be willing to fight to the last Gazan.

 

It's not like the Hamas does a whole lot of good for the Palestinian cause.

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are you actually trying to say that the settlers have a right to be on Palestinian land?

If so, why?

I wish I could see the answer to this question. 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I wish I could see the answer to this question. 

I doubt we will see one as it's not possible to justify israeli settlement on Palestinian land.

[Neeranam]

53 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt we will see one as it's not possible to justify israeli settlement on Palestinian land.

@Morch surely will try.