Hostages were carrying white cloth when shot, IDF says

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It was the precise counterpoint to your naive claim that Hamas attacked out of a vacuum. What do you believe caused their attack? You can't possibly imagine that prior events didn't provoke it surely? That would be risible.

You can't even read what I wrote and have misrepresented what I said with the added claim I'm naïve.

 

"oh gawd, up he pops.... There is zero justification for the Oct 7th Massacres, rapes, execution's, torture's, mutilations and hostages taking whether in a vacuum or not. It was the largest terrorist act in modern history"

[Peabody]

RIP to the 3 killed by friendly fire. The BS excuses only make it worse. But, it's probably the first and only time the IDF has made such a mistake, right?

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Stop harassing him and read the article for once. We all seem to have read and understood the article (except you) and yes there was a clear excuse within it.  

 

ok, I know you won't read. Here it is

 

"One of the soldiers, the official added, felt threatened, as the men were at a distance of tens of metres, declared them "terrorists" and opened fire. Two were immediately killed while the third, wounded, returned to the building."

 

You get it now Einstein?

 

   Those aren't excuses though, its just a statement about what happened .

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, Chris Daley said:

The objective of war is to kill as many people as possible.

No the objective of war to physically enact foreign policy. Current military strategy is to do this with as little death as possible. You are describing vengeance. 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Since when has the Archbishop of Westminster been an expert on urban warfare?

 

Since when does the poster replied to care about what Biden says....?

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Textbook IDF tactics. Immediate denial followed by shameless internal investigation not allowing third party or neutral involvement then months later, when the story dies down, IDF is cleared of any wrongdoing. However, if the crime happed to have been captured by any media outlet, IDF would issue a half-hearted apology wrapped up in some stupid excuse.

 

Do you remember the case of Al Jazeera murdered journalist Shireen Abu Akleh?  Google it.

 

What kind of 'third party or neutral involvement' are you on about?

[Morch]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

It was the precise counterpoint to your naive claim that Hamas attacked out of a vacuum. What do you believe caused their attack? You can't possibly imagine that prior events didn't provoke it surely? That would be risible.

 

There was no such claim, though.

As for the causes for the attack - this was discussed all over these topics, in detail.

That you can't be bothered reading them is your own choice.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Without decades of crimes against humanity before October 7th the attacks would never have happened.

 

Crimes Against Humanity, Says A Wannabe Legal Expert

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Keep bringing Hamas into every crime committed by the IDF is no longer works. Same goes to trying to link all IDF war atrocities to 7 October but ignoring everything that happened before that date.

 

How one can blame Hamas when the IDF shoots a guy lying injured on the ground or a when a sniper kills 8 years old playing in front of his house?? The large number of such incidents indicate they are not isolated events.

 

There were reports about Hamas trying to lure IDF soldiers into ambush by calling out in Hebrew. Links were provided in the past, and earlier today on a parallel topic. Hamas men tried something similar on 7/10, trying to convince holed up Israelis to come out saying they were IDF/Police.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Crimes Against Humanity, Says A Wannabe Legal Expert

 

It wasn't my opinion. And, yes, feeling frightened is the excuse for opening fire. The hostages were obviously dirty and disheveled and the IDF soldier profiled them as Hamas terrorists.

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses

 

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

It wasn't my opinion. And, yes, feeling frightened is the excuse for opening fire. The hostages were obviously dirty and disheveled and the IDF soldier profiled them as Hamas terrorists.

 

 

Not your opinion how?

 

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not your opinion how?

 

 

I provided the link.

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I provided the link.

 

To a Human Rights Watch piece.

As far as I'm aware HRW does not actually decide these things.

Comments about HRW's reliability and stance were made several times on these topics.

 

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

To a Human Rights Watch piece.

As far as I'm aware HRW does not actually decide these things.

Comments about HRW's reliability and stance were made several times on these topics.

 

 

The point is it's their opinion, not mine. I use authoritative opinions like theirs to formulate my own opinions. There are others who would also characterize the Israeli abuses over the years as human right violations.

[billd766]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:28 PM, Adumbration said:

Who cares?

 

Millions of people worldwide care. The families and friends of the 3 men who were murdered care.

 

And yes they were murdered by their own side. They came out shirtless, presumably to show that there were not carrying IEDs. They had a white flag of surrender. They were speaking Hebrew yet they were still shot and 2 killed instantly by the IDF because one fully armed IDF soldier decided that they were terrorists and opened fire.

 

The firing stopped by the battalion commanders order and the survivor came out of the house, still shirtless, still with a white flag and was shot and killed, even after the cease fire order had been given.

 

Why was he even in the military if he decided to open fire on 3 unarmed civilians carrying a white flag. There is NO excuse no matter what the IDF whitewash will say.

 

His platoon corporal, sergeant, lieutenant and all those above him up to and especially Netanyahu are culpable and failed in their job.

[CharlieH]

A number of petty exchanges removed.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

The point is it's their opinion, not mine. I use authloritative opinions like theirs to formulate my own opinions. There are others who would also characterize the Israeli abuses over the years as human right violations.

 

Authoritative? That's a choice. Was addressed on post on several topics already. Guess you didn't bother, naturally.

That there are 'others' is not surprising, nor very interesting - the point was that you announced it like it was a fact, settled, a done deal.

It is not.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Millions of people worldwide care. The families and friends of the 3 men who were murdered care.

 

And yes they were murdered by their own side. They came out shirtless, presumably to show that there were not carrying IEDs. They had a white flag of surrender. They were speaking Hebrew yet they were still shot and 2 killed instantly by the IDF because one fully armed IDF soldier decided that they were terrorists and opened fire.

 

The firing stopped by the battalion commanders order and the survivor came out of the house, still shirtless, still with a white flag and was shot and killed, even after the cease fire order had been given.

 

Why was he even in the military if he decided to open fire on 3 unarmed civilians carrying a white flag. There is NO excuse no matter what the IDF whitewash will say.

 

His platoon corporal, sergeant, lieutenant and all those above him up to and especially Netanyahu are culpable and failed in their job.

 

@billd766

 

I doubt millions care, that's your opinion, and you do tend to get carried away.

 

As you say, a soldier either made a mistake, or acted against orders, or whatever - how does that turn the incident into something that implies all the chain of command should step down? Is there any precedent to something like you prescribe?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Authoritative? That's a choice. Was addressed on post on several topics already. Guess you didn't bother, naturally.

That there are 'others' is not surprising, nor very interesting - the point was that you announced it like it was a fact, settled, a done deal.

It is not.

 

Here's another credible source who believes the abuses are crimes against humanity.

 

Throughout Israel and the occupied territory, the Israeli government has imposed a two-tiered legal and political system of systematic discrimination and oppression to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians. Experts and human rights groups have recognized that this system satisfies the prevailing evidentiary standard for apartheid, a crime against humanity.

 

Israeli authorities and security forces consistently employ violence and inhumane acts targeting Palestinians, including arbitrary and extrajudicial killings, torture, the denial of fundamental rights and collective punishment.

 

https://www.globalr2p.org/publications/atrocities-present-past-and-future-escalating-crimes-and-consequences-in-israel-and-occupied-palestine/

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@billd766

 

I doubt millions care, that's your opinion, and you do tend to get carried away.

 

As you say, a soldier either made a mistake, or acted against orders, or whatever - how does that turn the incident into something that implies all the chain of command should step down? Is there any precedent to something like you prescribe?

 

I told you, it's not my opinion, I'm quoting sources who I believe know more than myself about this.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@billd766

 

I doubt millions care, that's your opinion, and you do tend to get carried away.

 

As you say, a soldier either made a mistake, or acted against orders, or whatever - how does that turn the incident into something that implies all the chain of command should step down? Is there any precedent to something like you prescribe?

 

Yes, it's both a military and parliamentary tradition to take responsibility for the actions of their subordinates.

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I told you, it's not my opinion, I'm quoting sources who I believe know more than myself about this.

 

You're responding to the wrong post.

And what you 'believe' does not turn this into a fact.

Try as you may HRW does not decide these things.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Yes, it's both a military and parliamentary tradition to take responsibility for the actions of their subordinates.

 

Is there a precedent for the entire chain of command stepping down over an incident like this?

Not interested in your hollow generalizations. Asked a specific question in response to a rather specific comment.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Is there a precedent for the entire chain of command stepping down over an incident like this?

Not interested in your hollow generalizations. Asked a specific question in response to a rather specific comment.

 

No, just the top guy. Are you unaware of this or being obtuse?

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Here's another credible source who believes the abuses are crimes against humanity.

 

Throughout Israel and the occupied territory, the Israeli government has imposed a two-tiered legal and political system of systematic discrimination and oppression to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians. Experts and human rights groups have recognized that this system satisfies the prevailing evidentiary standard for apartheid, a crime against humanity.

 

Israeli authorities and security forces consistently employ violence and inhumane acts targeting Palestinians, including arbitrary and extrajudicial killings, torture, the denial of fundamental rights and collective punishment.

 

https://www.globalr2p.org/publications/atrocities-present-past-and-future-escalating-crimes-and-consequences-in-israel-and-occupied-palestine/

 

Yes...and?

It talks about the possibility of, may amount to, etc.

Again, you state things as facts.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

No, just the top guy. Are you unaware of this or being obtuse?

 

Are you serious?

You think that the norm is that every time a soldier does something wrong a country's leader steps down? 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Yes...and?

It talks about the possibility of, may amount to, etc.

Again, you state things as facts.

 

I did no such thing. I simply quoted what sources said with links. Nevertheless I believe they are facts. You believe they are lies so we are even.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Are you serious?

You think that the norm is that every time a soldier does something wrong a country's leader steps down? 

 

When 3 hostages get shot or a subordinate charged with a war crime, absolutely.

[Adumbration]

24 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Millions of people worldwide care. The families and friends of the 3 men who were murdered care.

 

And yes they were murdered by their own side. They came out shirtless, presumably to show that there were not carrying IEDs. They had a white flag of surrender. They were speaking Hebrew yet they were still shot and 2 killed instantly by the IDF because one fully armed IDF soldier decided that they were terrorists and opened fire.

 

The firing stopped by the battalion commanders order and the survivor came out of the house, still shirtless, still with a white flag and was shot and killed, even after the cease fire order had been given.

 

Why was he even in the military if he decided to open fire on 3 unarmed civilians carrying a white flag. There is NO excuse no matter what the IDF whitewash will say.

 

His platoon corporal, sergeant, lieutenant and all those above him up to and especially Netanyahu are culpable and failed in their job.

 

There will always be war there.  Always has been.  Always will be.  You can waste your time ruminating over it.  I will not.

 

There can be no peace until they renounce their Rabbit God and accept our Duck God.

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I did no such thing. I simply quoted what sources said with links. Nevertheless I believe they are facts. You believe they are lies so we are even.

 

Your original comment, to which I replied was a one liner without any links.

 

You can believe what you will.

 

And I did not say they were 'lies' - that's something you made up. I said they do not decide these things, and labeling them as 'authoritative' (the word you used), was a choice. What you said is a lie.