You can't get a good pizza

[Jingthing]

On 12/31/2023 at 5:15 PM, kwilco said:

 

DOUGH!!

 

Dough is VERY important - Italian pizza dough is special, A characteristic of a lot of Italian food is that it is deceptively simple.

It is based on a philosophy of making the most out of poverty – this gets the most flavour and nutrition out of the most basic ingredients – it uses sauces to flavour carbohydrate bases

 

Dough is vitally important part of a pizza – it is the foundation of th pizza – it’s PASTA” the basis of so much Italian food.

Foreign pizzas are often loaded with loads of toppings, Italian pizzas typically have just a few simple ingredients. This means that the flavour of the dough is able to shine through. A simple pizza made with good dough can be a delicious and satisfying meal.

 

Italian pizza dough uses fresh, simple ingredients; unlike some pizza doughs they don’t use artificial additives or processed flour, (which are essential with big companies that ship their ingredients all over the place)

 

Italian pizza dough only uses the flour, water, yeast, salt, and OLIVE oil. This means the flavour of the dough comes from the quality of the ingredients themselves, with good flour and olive oil making a big difference. The type of flour used can make a big difference in the flavour and texture of the dough. Italian pizza dough is typically made with "00" flour, which is a finely ground flour with a low gluten content. (around 12%) - this creates a delicate, light, and chewy crust.

 

Italian pizza dough is allowed to ferment for a long time, 24 hours or even longer. This slow fermentation process develops the flavour of the dough and breaks down the gluten, making it easier to digest.

There are of course, a wide variety of regional pizza styles, and each has its own unique dough. In Naples, for example, the home of the original pizza dough is thin and chewy, while in Rome, it is thicker and crispier. But you won’t find highly processed ingredients being use anywhere.

 

 

Other important factors –

Wood-Fired Ovens: A traditional Italian pizza is cooked in a wood-fired oven. This gives the dough a unique smoky flavour and crispy texture. The high heat of the wood-fired oven also helps to blister the crust.

 

The amount of WATER used can also affect the dough. Wetter dough will result in a crispier crust, while a drier dough results in a chewier crust.

The temperature of the oven is important for getting the right crust. A wood-fired oven is designed to achieve this.

 

So don’t underestimate dough, it is the main ingredient of the pizza – it is the foreign idea that you can make a pizza “better” by adding ingredients or toppings that in fact, ruins a pizza.

Of course obviously the crust is preeminent. 

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, GypsyT said:

Wow.... finally one who understands -:).

 

PS. Best food?

For me 1. Thailand  2. Peru

- Quite interesting that 3rd world countries eat much better than any of the richer and modern ones...

 

 

Not unusual to get that.

But I aggressively disagree that Italy has a monolopy on that.

That's chauvinist claptrap.

[scottiejohn]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Of course obviously the crust is preeminent. 

Rubbish it MUST be the CHEESE that is preeminent!

 

Oh and of course don't forget the type of pineapple and tomato/HP sauce!

[kwilco]

47 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Of course obviously the crust is preeminent. 

Which crust?

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, GypsyT said:

Quite interesting that 3rd world countries eat much better than any of the richer and modern ones...

 

If you understand cooking history this wouldn't be a surprise

Most societies in the past had vast numbers of people who only just manages to stac=ve off starvation, so they developed methods of making their STAPLE into interesting, good to eat dishes.. This means that most foods originated out of necessity and did not contain masses of high protein ingredients, they concentrated on flavourings.

As Societies became richer or people emigrated to wealthier countries they "adapted" their usual dishes to take more expensive ingredients. They often weren't actually chefs, they just wanted to eat more as it was a symbol of wealth.

This is particularly obvious with Italian food as Italians emigrated all over the world to escape poverty.

One example is the pizza where the topping has taken over and smothered what in essence was a piece of bread. Another example is Carbonara - "the charcoal burner's wife" which is essentially bacon and egg - nowadays people assume it has cream in it - which was never part of the original dish - try it made properly without - it is still creamy.

Edited January 2 by kwilco

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Which crust?

How does that make you feel?

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

 

If you understand cooking history this wouldn't be a surprise

Most societies in the past had vast numbers of people who only just manages to stac=ve off starvation, so they developed methods of making their STAPLE into interesting, good to eat dishes.. This means that most foods originated out of necessity and did not contain masses of high protein ingredients, they concentrated on flavourings.

As Societies became richer or people emigrated to wealthier countries they "adapted" their usual dishes to take more expensive ingredients. They often weren't actually chefs, they just wanted to eat more as it was a symbol of wealth.

This is particularly obvious with Italian food as Italians emigrated all over the world to escape poverty.

One example is the pizza where the topping has taken over and smothered what in essence was a piece of bread. Another example is Carbonara - "the charcoal burner's wife" which is essentially bacon and egg - nowadays people assume it has cream in it - which was never part of the original dish - try it made properly without - it is still creamy.

Such presumption as if you're the only one that knows about carbonara. 

[metisdead]

Some posts and replies bickering about grammar usage contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

[Walker88]

Purests will still find fault, but there are a few places, at least in Bangkok, where the restaurant ages the dough, uses a wood-fired oven, uses Typo "00" flour, and uses fresh Bufala Mozzarella, which is made by Italian cheesemasters resident in Bangkok who import the buffalo milk from Italy.

[Pattaya57]

This thread as gone so off topic....

 

To put it back about pizza in Pattaya you can't go past Bronx Pizza on soi Bukhao

 

Pointed it out to 4 mates in last 6 months, every one of them said it was a great pizza and all went back for more (started on 2 slices for 140 and immediately doubled up)

 

Edited January 2 by Pattaya57

[GammaGlobulin]

12 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

While true, what the Japanese are especially good at is taking other's ideas and improving upon them so that what the Japanese achieve dwarfs the original.

 

I have been hearing this sentiment for DECADES, already.

 

I do not agree with it.

 

Basically, the Japanese have always been dwarfs, is my opinion.

 

(Albeit, intelligent dwarfs, for sure.)

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by GammaGlobulin

[GammaGlobulin]

28 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

uses Typo "00" flour

 

Thanks.

 

I will read up on the various wheat flours available in Thailand.

 

 

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Such presumption as if you're the only one that knows about carbonara. 

hardly presumption - it's an example to back up my point of view.

But you don't give your point of view, you just resort to ad hom.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Thanks.

 

I will read up on the various wheat flours available in Thailand.

 

 

THe flour needs to be more than jut type - it needs a country of origin. 

As I mentioned earier local growing conditionsa=s are very important - that's why I often ship chillies back from Thailand as the same type for Indian has quite a different taste.

Coffee is nother example of this.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Basically, the Japanese have always been dwarfs, is my opinion.

you don't seem to be aware of the change in average height of Japanese people over the last 50 years?

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Pattaya57 said:

ou can't go past Bronx Pizza on soi Bukhao

 

Probably because they blast appetite stimulants out onto the street - unfortunately it's all part of ultra processed food production.

[Mr Meeseeks]

I tried Pizza Old School on Soi Khao Talo the other night.

 

Excellent. Best pizza I have had in Pattaya. 🍕

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies with derogatory ethnic slur comments toward Japanese people contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

[sirineou]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:54 PM, Trippy said:

He makes his own sauce, and uses real mozzarella cheese. Nobody else comes close. Now you made me hungry, 555

Same here. 

could be the area I am at but I could not get good pizza where I am at. At least what i consider good pizza. So I started making my own and found it to me surprisingly easy. I make my own sauce and freeze it in zip lock bags, they use too much sugar in their sauce here. . I defrost abag as needed . Same with the pizza dough, when using the frozen dough I defrost it overnight. . It takes considerably longer to go buy a pizza than it to make it on your own. 

[CharlieH]

Reported off topic removed.

[NextG]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:51 PM, Prubangboy said:

We tried it, with tomatoes straight off the vine, but it was a lot of work for a slightly inferior version to canned.

 

Some ethnic foods deliberately include processed foods because that's the agreed upon taste. In New Orleans Cajun food, they use garlic powder AND fresh garlic. They like that earthy undertone of the powder. In Puerto Rican food, they make their own sofrito and scoop some out of a jar too. Most Indians (and Thai's) start with a glop of a curry mix and then customize from there. 

 

Purists are the enemies of gluttons.

If it was inferior to canned, then you did something wrong. 
To be honest, you are just making terrible scraping noises with what you write 😊 and I imagine most Indians would be insulted by what you have written. You literally just made that up 😊 ‘A glop of curry mix’ ☺️ No. You just made that up. 

[KhunLA]

Can't remember last time I read so many ignorant experts (OK, I'm being kind, as almost every thread) ... but yea, how do you leave out the cheese.  Maybe since the most expensive ingredient per kg.

 

With YT, cooking doesn't get any easier, and plenty of variations for minor adjustments to taste.  But you still need the basics if going to call it something.

 

Pizza & pastas being 2 of the easiest to replicate at home.   Many might be better off just buying a can of Spaghetti O's at Villa Markets 

[CharlieH]

More off topic wanderings removed.

 

The topic is: You can't get a good pizza

 

Stay on topic or the topic can be closed.

[Jingthing]

Just now, kwilco said:

I don't think you understand how important the regional nature of Italian food is. The proliferation to toppings and bastardisation of the dough are just examples of how it doesn't travel

There he goes again.

Italy does not own Italian food.

Period.

[Ralf001]

5 hours ago, CharlieH said:

More off topic wanderings removed.

 

The topic is: You can't get a good pizza

 

Stay on topic or the topic can be closed.

 

The topic is wrong.

You can get good pizza.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

 

The topic is wrong.

You can get good pizza.

I agree.

Super great pizza much harder but again taste is subjective.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

I don't think you understand how important the regional nature of Italian food is. The proliferation to toppings and bastardisation of the dough are just examples of how it doesn't travel

I actually do understand regionality in food in Italy and other countries as well including my own.

I do understand your point about toppings.

Whats really annoying though about your  posts is that they project an arrogant pomposity that you have some rare and special knowledge to use as a cudgel on the ignorant unwashed masses.

Edited January 3 by Jingthing

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

The topic is wrong.

You can get good pizza.

I have argued at length why you can't.

[kwilco]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:29 AM, Jingthing said:

Of course obviously the crust is preeminent. 

 

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I actually do understand regionality in food in Italy and other countries as well including my own.

I do understand your point about toppings.

Whats really annoying though about your  posts is that they project an arrogant pomposity that you have some rare and special knowledge to use as a cudgel on the ignorant unwashed masses.

Whatever you see - says more about you than me.

[kwilco]

several posts pointing out that italian food is prepared in a "traditional" way in other countries - unfortunately that is not an argument - it is actually a reason why it doesn't travel - it takes more than just a facimile over or similar ingredients the fact it they are NOT the same - the ingrdients won't be Italian locally grown, the doungh won't be right (BTW - don't start me on Olice ol!!!) and the Guanciale traditionally used in Carbonara was actually BANNED in the USA for several years.

 

It isn't just Italian food, it is the way that best simple food is made that doesn't travel - it requires local produce, local methodology and local knowledge.

As I said I would eat anything and a lot I would enjoy, but I'm aware of what I'm eating and how it falls short of the original

 

BTW - Focaccia is an even bigger travesty than pizza - it comes from Genova as does pesto.