1 hour ago, Bday Prang said:

Or more specifically "Cobalt used in Lithium ion batteries"   same same but different, so how much of the article did you read?

My EV and my house batteries are LFP so no Cobalt.

2 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

self-charging hybrid in Toyota Marketing speak “you don’t need to plug it in, it charges by magic”

PHEVs have a small battery which gives you about 70km of battery only range (some more some less) you plug it in at home and you can probably do most of your local trips on just the battery. On longer trips you can use petrol engine. 
 

Hybrid cars have a tiny battery of about 1kWh that can’t be plugged in. It is used in slow traffic or when the car is stationary.

 

 

Thank you for a good answer. So a self charging runs on petrol, a plug in runs on electricity

1 hour ago, Bday Prang said:

no concern of mine 

You don’t a car, truck or motorcycle?

 

Don’t take trips in taxis, motorcycles taxis, tuk tuks, buses, baht buses? 
 

Because if you do, then you are hypocrite, for attacking EV owners who don’t use cobalt when you do.

4 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Thank you for a good answer. So a self charging runs on petrol, a plug in runs on electricity

both will have some recharge from regenerative breaking 

1 hour ago, Bday Prang said:

more specifically "Cobalt used in Lithium ion batteries"   same same but different

 

I am so bored constantly explaining basic concepts about EVs to you.

 

You clearly know nothing about EVs and you fail to retain any new information explained to you by patient EV owners.

 

There is no hope for you so I won’t waste anymore time on you.

 

Done talking to you

 

 

22 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

You don’t a car, truck or motorcycle?

 

Don’t take trips in taxis, motorcycles taxis, tuk tuks, buses, baht buses? 
 

Because if you do, then you are hypocrite, for attacking EV owners who don’t use cobalt when you do.

I do own a car,   i never said other wise  

" Don’t take trips in taxis, motorcycles taxis, tuk tuks, buses, baht buses?"     correct ..see above i have a car

I am not a hypocrite  because I don't care about my pollution or yours  I was not  criticising the pollution of either EV or ICE powered vehicles  

I was calling out the smug sanctimonious attitude that many owners of EVs like to display   

38 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

both will have some recharge from regenerative breaking 

But of course, the self-charging gets it's regenerative kinetic energy from the movement given by the petrol engine, no? So it all comes from petrol.

5 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

But of course, the self-charging gets it's regenerative kinetic energy from the movement given by the petrol engine, no? So it all comes from petrol.

Correct , I had a toyota prius provided for me at work whilst  working on a motorway construction project years ago ,  Averaged about 35mpg  worse than my diesel van. But it did feature a ridiculous and distracting  display showing how free wheeling and braking was allegedly recharging the battery.  Presumably to give drivers that eco smugness.

that purchasers of such vehicles crave.    Not quite sure what else it was meant to achieve 

1 minute ago, Bday Prang said:

Correct , I had a toyota prius provided for me at work whilst  working on a motorway construction project years ago ,  Averaged about 35mpg  worse than my diesel van. But it did feature a ridiculous and distracting  display showing how free wheeling and braking was allegedly recharging the battery.  Presumably to give drivers that eco smugness.

that purchasers of such vehicles crave.    Not quite sure what else it was meant to achieve 

Totally agree. 

4 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

There is no hope for you

really ! 

14 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I see ads on TV (UK) for self-charging hybrids, and plug-in hybrids. What's the difference please.

If it's plug in, what does the petrol engine do? Take over when the battery is flat.

I was going to try and explain in more laymen and practical terms as to the difference between these two technologies…

12 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Totally agree. 

But I see that you are merely trolling. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The poster you were responding to claimed only 35 mpg for the Prius. He’s obviously extremely economical with the facts or just an incompetent driver. 

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I was going to try and explain in more laymen and practical terms as to the difference between these two technologies…

But I see that you are merely trolling. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The poster you were responding to claimed only 35 mpg for the Prius. He’s obviously extremely economical with the facts or just an incompetent driver. 

I am certainly not trolling (whatever you mean by that). I was merely agreeing that the regenerative energy going into the battery on a self-charging hybrid, comes from petrol. Sorry if you misunderstood me. 

12 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Correct , I had a toyota prius provided for me at work whilst  working on a motorway construction project years ago ,  Averaged about 35mpg  worse than my diesel van. But it did feature a ridiculous and distracting  display showing how free wheeling and braking was allegedly recharging the battery.  Presumably to give drivers that eco smugness.

that purchasers of such vehicles crave.    Not quite sure what else it was meant to achieve 

I too had a Prius over 10 years ago. I was regularly able to get over 70 mpg on my highway runs by driving the car the way you are meant to drive a Hybrid if you want to benefit from the lower consumption. As it was a company car, you obviously did not bother saving petrol for the company or you were a rather incompetent hybrid driver or you are just plain spouting non sense.

 

You also said “allegedly” recharging the battery. That shows your complete ignorance of how the technology works. 
 

I find it strange that it’s only non EV fans and EV haters who thinks that EV owners are greenies, are trying to save the planet blah blah blah. I don’t recall one EV owner on this forum who bought an EV for the above reasons. Instead we buy EVs because we believe them to be superior motor vehicles, especially as our lifestyles and circumstances allow us to take full advantage of the benefits an EV provides.

 

 I won’t bother to tell you to take your blinkers off as I know you’re not neutral in this respect.

6 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I am certainly not trolling (whatever you mean by that). I was merely agreeing that the regenerative energy going into the battery on a self-charging hybrid, comes from petrol. Sorry if you misunderstood me. 

Ok, my apologies. And no, the regenerative energy going into the battery does not come from petrol. It comes from recapturing the energy otherwise lost in a normal ICE from slowing down or braking. Think of an EV. There is no petrol to recharge the battery after all.

 

The latest Nissan technology, e-power or something like that actually burns petrol to generate electricity to charge a traction battery to power an electric motor. If that sounds ridiculous to you, you are right. Even the well known anti EVer from AutoExpert ridicules this latest Nissan tech.

 

For normal PHEVs, you would normally plug it in to charge up the battery. Whilst driving, regenerative braking will charge the battery a little bit. There is also the option to charge the battery from the combustion engine but this is highly inefficient and I see no reason for wanting to do this way in Thailand.

14 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Ok, my apologies. And no, the regenerative energy going into the battery does not come from petrol. It comes from recapturing the energy otherwise lost in a normal ICE from slowing down or braking. Think of an EV. There is no petrol to recharge the battery after all.

 

The latest Nissan technology, e-power or something like that actually burns petrol to generate electricity to charge a traction battery to power an electric motor. If that sounds ridiculous to you, you are right. Even the well known anti EVer from AutoExpert ridicules this latest Nissan tech.

 

For normal PHEVs, you would normally plug it in to charge up the battery. Whilst driving, regenerative braking will charge the battery a little bit. There is also the option to charge the battery from the combustion engine but this is highly inefficient and I see no reason for wanting to do this way in Thailand.

I am a little bit confused by what you say. There are two types of hybrid, self-charging and plug in.

In the former, does ALL the power to move the vehicle not come from petrol, producing kinetic energy which is then recaptured during braking.

17 hours ago, Pib said:

Andrew,   

    This gets you closer to 70mgp.....25Km/L highway equates to almost 59mpg (US).  Need 11 more.  

 

https://www.zigwheels.co.th/en/new-cars/honda/city/rs#:~:text=Honda City RS Fuel Consumption,22 kmpl in the city.

I told you a half dozen times. I’m driving maybe 45-50mph. You’d need to figure what speed they were driving to get that reported 25km/L (most likely common highway speeds). I’ve said all this many times. I’ve also posted figures when you drive faster you get much worse mileage. It just seems like you aren’t actually reading, but that’s fine if you don’t like the facts I’ve done about 25 trips in my car getting 30km/L. 
 

in fact I’d just like to note I do both north and south trips from bangkok, trips are about 400km. So this isn’t a 10km stretch or something I’m talking about here. I do in fact get 70mpg on many trips I have taken. If the winds blowing against me, maybe I get 27km/L… i was simply posting the max I’ve gotten, as I have gotten the 70mpg many times. 

17 hours ago, Pib said:

Andrew,   

    This gets you closer to 70mgp.....25Km/L highway equates to almost 59mpg (US).  Need 11 more.  

 

https://www.zigwheels.co.th/en/new-cars/honda/city/rs#:~:text=Honda City RS Fuel Consumption,22 kmpl in the city.

 

Whoops....typo where I addressed this to Andrew as in @Andrew Dwyer...I meant Robert as in @Robert Paulson. 

 

I had Andrew on the brain as I just finished reading several of his posts in another EV thread.

 

And for Robert, with your Honda City 2021 model car having around a 59MPG manufacturer/govt fuel efficiency rating although manufacturer's/govt's fuel efficiency ratings are typically very generous, best case scenarios done under "not so real world driving conditions" 70mgp you said you are getting in your Honda City is probably possible under just the right conditions.  

All that stuff up there I said about speed applies to ev too. You wanna really push an ev to get its best energy consumption… SLOW DOWN and don’t accelerate fast. I guess the main factor is wind resistence is much greater the faster you travel, so even slight reductions in speed can often offer much more efficient mileage 

40 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I am a little bit confused by what you say. There are two types of hybrid, self-charging and plug in.

In the former, does ALL the power to move the vehicle not come from petrol, producing kinetic energy which is then recaptured during braking.

Yes, I think you are right, my bad. The battery is charged by the petrol engine and regenerative braking just adds back a bit of charge to the battery. I believe however (I could be wrong) that once the battery is fully charged, it will only be recharged by regenerative braking until it reaches a specific low level of charge and that’s when the petrol engine recharges the battery again. All of these works seamlessly in the background without user intervention other than driving style.

37 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I too had a Prius over 10 years ago. I was regularly able to get over 70 mpg on my highway runs by driving the car the way you are meant to drive a Hybrid if you want to benefit from the lower consumption. As it was a company car, you obviously did not bother saving petrol for the company or you were a rather incompetent hybrid driver or you are just plain spouting non sense.

 

You also said “allegedly” recharging the battery. That shows your complete ignorance of how the technology works. 
 

I find it strange that it’s only non EV fans and EV haters who thinks that EV owners are greenies, are trying to save the planet blah blah blah. I don’t recall one EV owner on this forum who bought an EV for the above reasons. Instead we buy EVs because we believe them to be superior motor vehicles, especially as our lifestyles and circumstances allow us to take full advantage of the benefits an EV provides.

 

 I won’t bother to tell you to take your blinkers off as I know you’re not neutral in this respect.

           Perhaps you had trouble understanding my comment,  I thought It was clear enough, but you obviously have no idea about the realities of driving a vehicle in the environment of a major motorway construction project.  

           The toyota prius were  only present on the site to "tick a green box " and benefit from certain tax advantages  on behalf of the contractor  there were about 20 of them provided for the engineers, surveyors and supervisors, my fuel consumption was perfectly typical of that experienced by everybody else.  

            They proved to be totally uneconomical to operate and were phased out when the second phase of the work started

             You can say what you like about my old diesel smoker , I really couldn't care less,  but any comment I might make  regarding the environmental  failings of EV's  Ie the issues surrounding the mining of lithium and cobalt, the problems of dealing with the spent batteries, the consequences of their excessive weight on tyres , brakes and road surfaces,    and the fact that most are charged using electricity generated from fossil fuels, is guaranteed to provoke a very defensive response. As demonstrated in this thread 

            

                 

25 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

All that stuff up there I said about speed applies to ev too. You wanna really push an ev to get its best energy consumption… SLOW DOWN and don’t accelerate fast. I guess the main factor is wind resistence is much greater the faster you travel, so even slight reductions in speed can often offer much more efficient mileage 

Correct. Wind resistance is not linear to speed. Fuel consumption (and the equivalent EV measure) drops off significantly for every kmh above something like 100 kmh.Of course the most economical way is at top gear at the lowest speed for that gear.  But even the miser that I am can’t imagine doing a long journey at speeds of less than 80-90 kmh. Your 50 mph translates to 80 kmh. I think part of the confusion and scepticism comes from the difference in US mpg and UK mpg. I think in terms of the latter whereas I believe you were referring to the former, hence mine and a couple of others scepticism.

7 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

           Perhaps you had trouble understanding my comment,  I thought It was clear enough, but you obviously have no idea about the realities of driving a vehicle in the environment of a major motorway construction project.  

           The toyota prius were  only present on the site to "tick a green box " and benefit from certain tax advantages  on behalf of the contractor  there were about 20 of them provided for the engineers, surveyors and supervisors, my fuel consumption was perfectly typical of that experienced by everybody else.  

            They proved to be totally uneconomical to operate and were phased out when the second phase of the work started

             You can say what you like about my old diesel smoker , I really couldn't care less,  but any comment I might make  regarding the environmental  failings of EV's  Ie the issues surrounding the mining of lithium and cobalt, the problems of dealing with the spent batteries, the consequences of their excessive weight on tyres , brakes and road surfaces,    and the fact that most are charged using electricity generated from fossil fuels, is guaranteed to provoke a very defensive response. As demonstrated in this thread 

            

                 

You were not clear at all. Are you trying to say that you were driving your Prius on incomplete, possibly unsurfaced roads whilst in the middle of a highway construction project? If so, your fuel consumption is totally meaningless and useless as it does not reflect real world situation. It’s like saying that my manual transmission car gives me very poor mileage as I’m only driving in 1st and 2nd gears and redlining it all the time.

 

 I have nothing against your old diesel smoker other than that the smelly and toxic fumes it emits is disgusting and a health hazard to everyone around you. I hope never to be behind you in traffic.

 

You keep going on about environmental issues, mining of materials required for battery production etc etc. Like I said, it’s only anti EVers who seem to think that EV owners purchase EVs for environmental reasons. We buy EVs for its superior comfort, performance and features. As to excessive weight, there are many ICEVs that are much heavier than EVs. The myth about excessive tyre wear has been debunked many times. As for brakes, EVs are much easier on brakes due to regenerative braking.

 

As @Bandersnatch mentioned, modern batteries do not contain cobalt whereas cobalt is used in the production of your petrol/diesel. So in actual fact, you are more complicit in the exploitation of child labour than EV drivers.

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Yes, I think you are right, my bad. The battery is charged by the petrol engine and regenerative braking just adds back a bit of charge to the battery. I believe however (I could be wrong) that once the battery is fully charged, it will only be recharged by regenerative braking until it reaches a specific low level of charge and that’s when the petrol engine recharges the battery again. All of these works seamlessly in the background without user intervention other than driving style.

Yes thank you, it makes sense.

3 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

 I have nothing against your old diesel smoker other than that the smelly and toxic fumes it emits is disgusting and a health hazard to everyone around you. I hope never to be behind you in traffic.

Regarding "diesel smokers" my BYD Atto EV has a PM2.5 detection system that is always showing on the infotainment screen the PM2.5 level inside and outside the car.  While driving on the highway the inside PM2.5 level is typically within 5 to 10; but whenever I get right behind a big diesel truck (like a dirt truck) that's blowing a lot of black exhaust smoke the outside level PM2.5 level shoots up to over 400 (yes, four hundred) in some cases. 

 

And even when directly behind/close to "big" diesel trucks which are not blowing any or very little  "visible" exhaust smoke" the outside PM2.5 can climb to almost 100...pass the truck and the PM immediately drops way down. 

 

Now when driving real close to a "passenger" car/truck type diesel vehicle like say a Toyota Fortuner, Isuzu Mu-X, Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, or similar vehicles with a small diesel engine like around 2.2-3.0L the PM level does not increase unless it's got a real engine problem and blowing significant exhaust smoke.   But since so many of the vehicles on the road are small diesel engine vehicles it's hard to tell what the PM level might drop to if I could magically make them disappear for a minute or so and get an updated PM reading.

 

It can be a real eye opener seeing real time PM levels shoot so high when following close to a big diesel truck (or really any vehicle blowing exhaust).

 

But hey, I'm a proud owner of a 2009 Toyota Fortuner 3.0L diesel vehicle that I bought brand new and took good care of...now has around 317K Km's under its belt and doesn't blow black exhaust not to imply it's not spitting out pollutants when putting a PM detector next to its exhaust.  And now I'm a proud owner of a 2023 BYD Atto EV with no exhaust which I'm taking as carbon credits for against the occasional use of my Fortuner. 

 

4 hours ago, Robert Paulson said:

All that stuff up there I said about speed applies to ev too. You wanna really push an ev to get its best energy consumption… SLOW DOWN and don’t accelerate fast. I guess the main factor is wind resistence is much greater the faster you travel, so even slight reductions in speed can often offer much more efficient mileage 

This is true, whereas mpg is often the maximum economy you can get from your ICE car ( only to be exceeded by using unorthodox measures) EV’s have a range “ guessometer “ using a variety of methods ( NEDC, WLTP, CLTC ) supposedly based on normal driving habits which include highway and urban driving. WLTP is the standard which comes closest to driving in reality.

Some EV’s will use a Dynamic range, based on your own physical driving habits, similar to the remaining miles/km’s function on an ICE car.

My car has determined my average range via a Dynamic option.

 

On New Year’s Day I took a trip ( 205 km ) on mainly highways, driving up to 120 km/h and mainly at around 100 to 105 km/h the 205 km took 250 km off my remaining km’s ( range ).

 

Driving back the exact same route, a couple of days later, i encountered heavy stop start traffic and the 205 km took 189 km off my range.

 

So, contrary to normal ICE driving, stop start or urban driving is better than highway driving for economy as regeneration braking creates energy.

 

So, beating the “ mpg” is possible in an EV but usually means some form of driving based purely on economics.

11 hours ago, Robert Paulson said:

All that stuff up there I said about speed applies to ev too. You wanna really push an ev to get its best energy consumption… SLOW DOWN and don’t accelerate fast. I guess the main factor is wind resistence is much greater the faster you travel, so even slight reductions in speed can often offer much more efficient mileage 

You sound like a cyclist Robert.

First thing you learn/notice when riding a bike is how too many cars are driven by inconsiderate <deleted> and little hills take a lot of energy to ride up and the faster you ride the harder it is because of wind friction.

 

PS

I think anyone who can think understands what you’re saying about your fuel consumption, if anyone needs it explained again you’re just wasting your breath.

I started this discussion to inject some facts into the “debate” about EVs. The facts are that here in Thailand EVs are the fastest growing class of vehicles. (Link posted in my OP) over 25% of vehicles sold last month in Thailand were full EVs. That makes Thailand one fastest growing market for EVs in the world.

 

By comparison “Sales of pickups fell 42% in 2022, in 2023 they fell again by 35%”

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/01/06/jury-still-out-on-ev-vehicles-thailand-is-up-against-the-wall/

 

The EV haters are quick to claim that EV growth has stalled but that is not true. The posts in this discussion reveal the “I’m not an EV hater but..” types have a very poor grasp of the facts and are happy to lie. You very rarely see them use citations to support their arguments (understandable as it’s difficult finding legitimate sources to support a lie)

 

There are plenty of EV owners online here who are happy to share their experiences owning an EV in Thailand, both the good and the bad. Why would anybody listen instead to an EV hater who rants on about the evils of Lithium at the same time posting links to Cobalt mining  

 

Having a “debate” with an EV ultracrepidarian is like playing chess with a pigeon that knocks over all the pieces, poops on the board and then struts around like he won the game.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

I started this discussion to inject some facts into the “debate” about EVs. The facts are that here in Thailand EVs are the fastest growing class of vehicles. (Link posted in my OP) over 25% of vehicles sold last month in Thailand were full EVs. That makes Thailand one fastest growing market for EVs in the world.

 

By comparison “Sales of pickups fell 42% in 2022, in 2023 they fell again by 35%”

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/01/06/jury-still-out-on-ev-vehicles-thailand-is-up-against-the-wall/

 

The EV haters are quick to claim that EV growth has stalled but that is not true. The posts in this discussion reveal the “I’m not an EV hater but..” types have a very poor grasp of the facts and are happy to lie. You very rarely see them use citations to support their arguments (understandable as it’s difficult finding legitimate sources to support a lie)

 

There are plenty of EV owners online here who are happy to share their experiences owning an EV in Thailand, both the good and the bad. Why would anybody listen instead to an EV hater who rants on about the evils of Lithium at the same time posting links to Cobalt mining  

 

Having a “debate” with an EV ultracrepidarian is like playing chess with a pigeon that knocks over all the pieces, poops on the board and then struts around like he won the game.

 

 

 

 

You just described Trump, is he in Thailand ? 🤣