Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  A ceasefire wasn't demanded by the ICJ , the war can continue .

This isn't a win for Hamas/South Africa 

 

Everyone's a winner, depending on the spin. That's ok, it was expected to be something like that.

 

The more important thing is what happens next. My guess would be nothing much on the Hamas's side, Israel maybe taking things down a notch. Both sides apparently on the way to another deal (hostages for pause) - so everyone makes for the other side to do something that could be construed as a violation and take it up from there again.

[coolcarer]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm game. 2/3 of Palestinians killed were civilians. That's not any semblance of proportionality. Thta's indiscriminate bombing. A war crime.

 

The court found sufficient prima facie evidence to go ahead with a hearing on a genocide complaint.

You’ve lost the game already. Provide a link to the war crime incident with evidence, investigation and prosecution.

[connda]

Summary of the ICJ provisional judgment.  This is not a final judgment which will happen at a later date.  The ICJ also stated that Hamas must release the hostages as well.

 

• The court says it has jurisdiction to rule in the case.
• It orders Israel to take measures to prevent acts of genocide in Gaza - it must report back in a month.
• Israel must prevent and punish incitement to genocide.
• The court says Israel must allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.
• Israel is obliged to take more measures to protect Palestinians but does not order it to end military operations.

[ozimoron]

Just now, coolcarer said:

You’ve lost the game already. Provide a link to the war crime incident with evidence, investigation and prosecution.

 

Again, the ICJ found sufficient evidence of genocide (a war crime) to hear South Africa's complaint.

[Morch]

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm game. 2/3 of Palestinians killed were civilians. That's not any semblance of proportionality. Thta's indiscriminate bombing. A war crime.

 

The court found sufficient prima facie evidence to go ahead with a hearing on a genocide complaint.

 

@ozimoron

 

That's you doing you usual tossing of words about.

 

You do not decide what's 'indiscriminate', or what's a 'war crime'.

You imagine you do, but you do not.

 

The court was not really expected to throw the case out. The court did not impose any strong orders about a ceasefire etc. Get real.

 

Also, the court said some things about Hamas - which you insist on ignoring. Tell me again how you're not a Hamas fanboy?

 

Don't recall you having issues with proportionality when discussion were on about hostages released for Palestinian imprisoned in Israel. Seemed like you were quite at home with Israel asked to release more Palestinians than Hamas held Israel hostages.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Decent people are aghast tat the genocide in Gaza conducted by IDF troops.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jan/26/middle-east-crisis-live-updates-icj-genocide-case-ruling-israel-hamas-gaza-hostage-talks-cia

 

So are all you Israel genocide supporters gonna change your minds.....no I thought not...I look forward to hearing why the ICJ decision is wrong, corrupt,.perverted.That the ICJ is a tool of SA and always sides with Africans.

 

 

I think you're over interpreting the outcome of the case. It's not as black and white as you make out. Others have explained why above. 

 

You also don't seem to be aware that Hamas have been 'ordered' to release the hostages, and we all know that's not going to happen. Or do you think they will?

 

It's blinkered views like yours that cause and prolong wars. Try to think more constructively. 

[Bkk Brian]

Best that could be hoped for I think. Hamas will not abide by it though more pressure for them to release hostages.

 

Press release Spokesperson of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (more in the link)

 

As the Court recognized, on October 7th Hamas and other terrorist groups committed unspeakable atrocities against Israel and its citizens. Like every country, Israel has an inherent and inalienable right to defend itself against the terrorist onslaught it still faces. The vile attempt by South Africa to deny Israel this fundamental right was justly rejected.
 
The Court has repeatedly made clear that its decision today does not determine whether South Africa’s claims have any merit, or the Court’s jurisdiction in this matter. Israel’s war is against Hamas, not against Palestinian civilians. Israel will continue to facilitate humanitarian assistance, and to do its utmost according to the law to keep civilians out of harm’s way, even as Hamas uses them as human shields.

 

Israel remains committed, as it has repeatedly affirmed and demonstrated, to acting in accordance with its rights and obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law. This commitment is unwavering, independent of any ICJ proceedings.   Israel welcomes the Court’s clear demand for the immediate and unconditional release of all the hostages held in Gaza.

 

https://twitter.com/LiorHaiat/status/1750877670131261693

 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, connda said:

Summary of the ICJ provisional judgment.  This is not a final judgment which will happen at a later date.  The ICJ also stated that Hamas must release the hostages as well.

 

• The court says it has jurisdiction to rule in the case.
• It orders Israel to take measures to prevent acts of genocide in Gaza - it must report back in a month.
• Israel must prevent and punish incitement to genocide.
• The court says Israel must allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.
• Israel is obliged to take more measures to protect Palestinians but does not order it to end military operations.

 

The "prevent and punish incitement to genocide" bit will be interesting. My reading of this is that it refers to statements made by Israeli ministers, many of which it quoted in its ruling. Itf it doesn't refer to those statements, it's difficult to see what it does refer to.

Edited January 26 by ozimoron

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Again, the ICJ found sufficient evidence of genocide (a war crime) to hear South Africa's complaint.

 

@ozimoron

 

The ICJ does not try and decide about war crimes. That would be the ICC.

And noticeably, there was no final verdict yet, no ruling on such.

 

Edited January 26 by stats
flame comments removed

[sungod]

Hamas and ANC (S.Africa Government) peas in the pod.

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

The "prevent and punish incitement to genocide" bit will be interesting. My reading of this is that it refers to statements made by Israeli ministers, many of which it quoted in its ruling.

 

@ozimoron

 

I wonder if that would hold for all them Hamas leadership comments, calling for the destruction of Israel etc.

Then again, you apparently consider such things either legit or of no interest.

[stats]

ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocidal acts in Gaza but not to end war

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68097640

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

 

 

“The court concludes prima facia that South Africa has standing to submit to it the dispute with Israel concerning alleged violations of obligations under the Genocide Convention,” Donoghue said.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4431068-top-un-court-rejects-israels-request-to-throw-out-genocide-case/

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

“The court concludes prima facia that South Africa has standing to submit to it the dispute with Israel concerning alleged violations of obligations under the Genocide Convention,” Donoghue said.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4431068-top-un-court-rejects-israels-request-to-throw-out-genocide-case/

 

@ozimoron

 

Yes...and?

[sungod]

Just tell the Palestinians to give up Hamas, its all over. Whats the issue?

 

Or maybe they are the same......

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, sungod said:

Just tell the Palestinians to give up Hamas, its all over. Whats the issue?

 

Or maybe they are the same......

 

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter and most of those are now militants fighting for Hamas, certainly many more than before the war. Just a hunch.

 

Wiping out Hamas is rapidly becoming synonymous with wiping out Palestinians.

 

 

Edited January 26 by ozimoron

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter and most of those are now militants fighting for Hamas, certainly many more than before the war. Just a hunch.

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter

 

Wrong again, plenty demonstrating against Hamas and blaming them for their predicament, plenty telling Hamas to release the hostages. Yes I've already provide a link to this in a tandem topic

[sungod]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter and most of those are now militants fighting for Hamas, certainly many more than before the war. Just a hunch.

 

Wiping out Hamas is rapidly becoming synonymous with wiping out Palestinians.

 

 

 

So its up to the Palestinians then, so they are the same. Terrorists.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter

 

Wrong again, plenty demonstrating against Hamas and blaming them for their predicament, plenty telling Hamas to release the hostages. Yes I've already provide a link to this in a tandem topic

 

I might have been guilty of a bit of literary licence in claiming "every" but certainly it's in the majority and certainly the number of Hamas militants is not decreasing.

 

Palestinian support for armed struggle had been steadily increasing under the Netanyahu government and has spiked further since October 7.

 

A majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza support violent struggle and Hamas’ “decision to carry out the offensive” on October 7.

 

https://jstreet.org/palestinian-public-opinion-5-key-takeaways-from-recent-polling/

 

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I might have been guilty of a bit of literary licence in claiming "every" but certainly it's in the majority and certainly the number of Hamas militants is not decreasing.

 

Palestinian support for armed struggle had been steadily increasing under the Netanyahu government and has spiked further since October 7.

 

A majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza support violent struggle and Hamas’ “decision to carry out the offensive” on October 7.

 

https://jstreet.org/palestinian-public-opinion-5-key-takeaways-from-recent-polling/

 

 

 

 

 

I might have been guilty of a bit of literary licence in claiming "every"

 

Yes you were

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter and most of those are now militants fighting for Hamas, certainly many more than before the war. Just a hunch.

 

Wiping out Hamas is rapidly becoming synonymous with wiping out Palestinians.

 

 

 

@ozimoron

 

if, indeed, your nonsense was correct - it would actually give Israel freedom to do much more. Maybe you're for that - more opportunities for you to do the fake outrage act, the preachy bits, the fiery condemnations and all the rest.

 

Notice how it's you that announcing all Palestinians are Hamas, then jumping to claim 'wiping out Palestinians'?

 

Edited January 26 by stats
flames removed

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I might have been guilty of a bit of literary licence in claiming "every"

 

Yes you were

 

Most people would get the drift.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I might have been guilty of a bit of literary licence in claiming "every" but certainly it's in the majority and certainly the number of Hamas militants is not decreasing.

 

Palestinian support for armed struggle had been steadily increasing under the Netanyahu government and has spiked further since October 7.

 

A majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza support violent struggle and Hamas’ “decision to carry out the offensive” on October 7.

 

https://jstreet.org/palestinian-public-opinion-5-key-takeaways-from-recent-polling/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ozimoron

 

Answering a poll does not a militant make.

As for the numbers of Hamas militants not decreasing, that you're own opinion - reports cite thousands of them killed. Of course, you may class them as civilians, given you embrace Hamas narrative anyway.

[Bkk Brian]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Most people would get the drift.

 

These people fail to get your "drift" there are more also that I posted

 

[sungod]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'd say that by now every man, woman and child living in Gaza or the West Bank is a Hamas supporter and most of those are now militants fighting for Hamas, certainly many more than before the war. Just a hunch.

 

Wiping out Hamas is rapidly becoming synonymous with wiping out Palestinians.

 

 

 

One sided and blinkered as normal, ditto for Israelis who  saw young kids massacred at the hands of Hamas just enjoying themselves at a dance festival, old people cowering in fear as Hamas attacked and killed them in their houses.

 

I'd say may Israelis feel the same, just a hunch.....

[sungod]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60173481

 

Hamas seems to rule by fear, not by consensus.

[Brickleberry]

51 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  A ceasefire wasn't demanded by the ICJ , the war can continue .

This isn't a win for Hamas/South Africa 

 

It most definitely is a win for South Africa. This was an interim hearing, and to decide if the case will move forward.

 

The court overwhelmingly voted 15/2 that there is potentially a case of genocide to answer, and so the case continues. How is that not a win? The court were never going to order Israel to stop fighting, but they have put restrictions on what they can do. This will make Israel's propaganda easier to combat, because the world court has acknowledged they are not doing this the right way - too many have died. 

 

Personally, even though I loath Bibi and his right wing buddies, I do not believe Israel is attempting genocide. Ethnic cleansing of the area, probably. 

 

War crimes? 1000% yes. There have been so many examples, even yesterday we watched an old Palestinian guy waving a white flag get shot on iTV.

 

Genocide? No. Even though they are indiscriminately killing thousands - including their own naked, white flag bearing hostages, they are not trying to kill them all.

[Bkk Brian]

51 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  A ceasefire wasn't demanded by the ICJ , the war can continue .

This isn't a win for Hamas/South Africa 

Exactly. IDF can continue to dismantle the terrorist friends of SA

[stats]

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

9 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

 

War crimes? 1000% yes. There have been so many examples, even yesterday we watched an old Palestinian guy waving a white flag get shot on iTV.

Genocide? No. Even though they are indiscriminately killing thousands - including their own naked, white flag bearing hostages, they are not trying to kill them all.

 

   Its not known who fired the bullets though , could have been Hamas shooting those who surrender ?

That would be yet another Hamas war crime