Expat Tax Twists in Thailand: Navigating the New Landscape in 2024

[atpeace]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sure, we've had to make some assumptions along the way which I think is only reasonable but there's also a large helping of fact that underpins that and it is growing every week. Reading the following link, may help, if you haven't already done so, That Q&A made life a lot easier. https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

I just gave the pre 2024 income some more thought.  They don't state that other income isn't taxable.  If you have substantial saving and have investment income(eg, usa stocks) while you are in Thailand, it will be taxed in the same manner as income for those without savings.  Loophole closed! Honestly, the pre 2024 seems to good to be true but Oh I hope it is true.

 

It is still a wonderful loophole for wealthy Thais which why it was included probably.  Thais can repatriate all their money tax free.  In addition, I wouldn't be surprised to see an amendment excluding assets purchased prior to 2024 are excluded that would for example eliminate tax for wealthy Thais on real estate sold after 2024.

[offset]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Even savings earned post 1 January 2024 will be OK, if overseas tax was paid on them.

Are you saying people that pay tax and have no other income nothing as changed 

[Ben Zioner]

13 minutes ago, Cabradelmar said:

of the amount is under the threshold and it's a gift between spouses, she isn't liable for personal income tax

By "threshold" you mean the first 150k non taxable assessable income? If that's the case I had it right in my previous post. But my wife wouldn't consider anything below ten times this amount. So at best a way to avoid the 30% bracket with two incomes as one' wife personal income may taxable too.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, offset said:

Are you saying people that pay tax and have no other income nothing as changed 

The basic principle is that everyone pays tax somewhere so as long as you've done that and you try to import funds into Thailand where tax has already been paid  in the home country, Thailand is unlikely to make any  further tax demand on you. That said, there will almost certainly be examples where the difference in the tax rates between the two countries, COULD lead to additional tax being due here but for the most part, those will be anomalies. 

 

The target for this tax rule is people who invest offshore and repatriate their earnings without paying tax anywhere. Another group is those who work here online and because they are remote workers, get paid in Thailand but are untaxed....and similar. Everyday people with savings and a home and a few investments, are not the target and are not going to be of interest to the RD. 

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, spambot said:

Good information about the Tax clearance certificate - Also I think you are right METV tourists would be a big issue and rather confusing expecting Tax to be considered on Exit. There are around 2.6 million foreigners long term resident in Thailand and if eliminating the people from Lao, Myanmar and Cambodia (1.8 million), then about 800k other long term foreigners is a healthy number to start new Tax investigation activities. However probably initially the more important priority will be actual Thailand nationals, sufficiently wealthy who have been repatriating overseas funds at zero tax.

Yes it may /will affect some Thai retirement strategies. In a similar way to the UK, reducing the capital gains allowance from£12k to £3k this year, of finding my Tax free in UK ISA investments likely to be treated as normal dividends and gains under Thai Tax . Now their tax free overseas investment retirement supplement  will potentially be clobered  for Tax 25-30%, on total return.

 

RD do seem to take a reasoned view with pensions , in that they are saying, that if taxed overseas, then not an issue apparently. 

(Differs from UK HMRC, for example who are still pursuing UK pensioners who have been scammed out of their pension, for a 55% tax charge on the money they no longer have. As it was an unauthorised transfer or withdrawal! Members of parliament are trying to get them reeled back in, but they have been attacking their own nationals like this for years, (similar thing with a company trainingg scheme recently.)

 

I would expect them to have an undeclared internal threashold, on which they will preferentially pursue initially, to have resource Vs Tax yeild initially, on those aggressively using the previous rule and those avoiding OECD should be taxed somewhere theme.

 

Thais may end up with more static overseas portfolios ( hope that plane manufacturer can get it's act together...)

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

By "threshold" you mean the first 150k non taxable assessable income? If that's the case I had it right in my previous post. But my wife wouldn't consider anything below ten times this amount. So at best a way to avoid the 30% bracket with two incomes as one' wife personal income may taxable too.

 

 

By threshold I believe he refers to 20 million baht! That's the threshold for the gift tax rule.

[spambot]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

If you are over age 65 for example, your TEDA is circa 350k baht which can effectively be added to the 150k zero rated tax band giving you around 500k baht tax free in Thailand every year. Add to that the fact that any income that is remitted where tax has already been paid in the home country, will not be taxed again and that tax will be credited against any Thai tax that is due. ASSUMING, that the Thai RD allows the UK PA, for example, to remain, and that pensions are taxed in the UK, that means that almost no Thai tax will be due on a pension of an average size and where tax is due, the TEDA relieves most of the tax stress.

 

If the example is a single person under age 65, the picture changes but still the fact that the money coming from the UK is taxed there, should mean virtually no tax is payable in Thailand because UK tax tables are higher than the Thai tax tables.

Ahhh - Good Clarification Response - You have highlighted that it is very important to consider - "If you are over age 65 for example, your TEDA is circa 350k baht which can effectively be added to the 150k zero rated tax band giving you around 500k baht tax free" 

[Mike Lister]

@UKresonant has showed up, he knows what he's talking about, I'm going for dinner.

[JimGant]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm pretty sure they will allow the UK PA and other countries personal allowances and exemptions, otherwise it becomes too complex given the various tax bodies, forms and rules involved. The Thai RD wants to be sure the money you import isn't illegally sourced and that it has been declared somewhere, drilling down to exemptions and allowance is unlikely to be part of their agenda.

 

Not sure where on all these threads to jump in on -- but maybe here's ok.

 

Early in this drill we saw where Thai RD said, "have a DTA and show a tax return from home country -- and you're home free from Thai taxation." I think their original thinking is still in place.

 

Why? Because of the simplicity, and thus no new hires and expenses to deal with tax credits against Thai taxation, whatever. So, if you can show a tax return from your home country -- which has a DTA with Thailand (or maybe even not, as it really doesn't factor in) -- that's it. Show it to Immigration for your annual extension. They don't need to go through the numbers -- that would be nonsensical -- they just need to see a home country tax return, even it it doesn't indicate any taxes being paid (because standard deduction exceeds gross income, etc). Not that they would even notice, nor need to.

 

But, what if you have no home country tax return, because you're one of those lucky ones who haven't had to pay any taxes, to anyone, since retiring here in Thailand? Well, now, without a home country tax return to show, you now have to show a Thai tax return. And this tax return, if you've been honest, may just show taxes owed and paid. Or maybe not -- Immigration won't care -- they're just interested in the fact that you can produce a Thai tax return, in the absence of a home country tax return. Just another requirement, on top of a bank statement, TM30, whatever. No real additional cost to Immigration's overhead -- just the need to produce either a home country tax return, or a Thai tax return -- one more block for Immigration to check.

 

Anyway, seems logical to me. For those of us paying home country taxes, I guess (as a Yank), I'll just need to flash my 1040 return to Immigration. No home country tax return? -- well, best learn how to file a Thai tax return -- and welcome to the world of having to pay someone taxes. Fair is fair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

As for the first point, hardly anyone does pay tax here, that's the big problem! But it's almost certainly not because of Gift Tax.

 

If you look at the link below and read the para, "Assessible (Taxable) Gift Income" and scroll down to part that reads, "for a  gift received by...a spouse", the rules state that up to 20 mill. is tax free. If not a spouse etc, it's 10 mill.

 

One of us appears to be missing something here on this point, I hope it isn't me. So if you can tell me where you think what I have said above is incorrect, please do.

 

https://sherrings.com/gift-tax-law-in-thailand.html#:~:text=tradition or custom-,Subject to tax on the amount of the gift received,baht in a tax year.&text=Exemption from tax as per the rules specified by Ministerial Regulation.&text=an adopted child)-,On the amount of the gift received in excess of,transfer of the immovable property. 

Yes this part makes only mention  "gifts received".  So it leaves out the actual liability of the giver (or gifter?). I am pretty sure that between giver and receiver, one will be taxed.

 

I dearly would like the "Income tax optimisation through giftS" to get clarified here. Let's not forget that the PM has received 10M from one of his children last year, there must be a reason.

[Puccini]

20 hours ago, UKresonant said:

If you bring cash in and change it at the exchange booth, what do they do with the photcopy of your passport they take under a requirement of Bank of Thailand regulations?

 

They keep it in their computer database for at least the minimum period required by government regulations and print a copy if and when requested by an authorised government agency.

[Cabradelmar]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

By "threshold" you mean the first 150k non taxable assessable income? If that's the case I had it right in my previous post. But my wife wouldn't consider anything below ten times this amount. So at best a way to avoid the 30% bracket with two incomes as one' wife personal income may taxable too.

 

 

 

The gift threshold for a cash gift between spouses is 20 million THB (in a calendar year). 

[UKresonant]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The Capital Gains issue has appeared a number of times but we still don't have a conclusive answer. One potential answer is that the gain is pro-rata with any part of it being tax free if earned prior to 1 January 2024 and the remainder, taxable. That approach would require an accurate  valuation at 1 January 2024 which may be problematic if you try to get one retrospectively.

I think the gain will be calculated purely at the date of the transaction. This also makes me wonder on the fx rate applied, and timing.

[spambot]

16 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

Yes it may /will affect some Thai retirement strategies. In a similar way to the UK, reducing the capital gains allowance from£12k to £3k this year, of finding my Tax free in UK ISA investments likely to be treated as normal dividends and gains under Thai Tax . Now their tax free overseas investment retirement supplement  will potentially be clobered  for Tax 25-30%, on total return.

 

RD do seem to take a reasoned view with pensions , in that they are saying, that if taxed overseas, then not an issue apparently. 

(Differs from UK HMRC, for example who are still pursuing UK pensioners who have been scammed out of their pension, for a 55% tax charge on the money they no longer have. As it was an unauthorised transfer or withdrawal! Members of parliament are trying to get them reeled back in, but they have been attacking their own nationals like this for years, (similar thing with a company trainingg scheme recently.)

 

I would expect them to have an undeclared internal threashold, on which they will preferentially pursue initially, to have resource Vs Tax yeild initially, on those aggressively using the previous rule and those avoiding OECD should be taxed somewhere theme.

 

Thais may end up with more static overseas portfolios ( hope that plane manufacturer can get it's act together...)

Mnnn - Actually you bring up a good point about ISA's - That is, if tax protected vehicles in the UK will be respected.

 

Most of the funds deposited into an ISA would be from earnings and would have been subject to Tax prior to deposit and If rather than used for making an ISA deposit the funds had been sent into Thailand, normally this would be DTA protected, hence unlikely to be Taxed in Thailand. However if in the tax year when funds are taken out of the ISA they are then remitted as resident in Thailand - Will the Tax free vehicle change the taxable status of the initial deposits which  have already been taxed.

 

For example, for taxed income deposits of £100K in an ISA with an increase of say £5K tax free inside the ISA, then £20k is withdrawn, transferred out when resident in Thailand - Will this be treated as mixture of taxed/untaxed or will all  withdrawn funds be considered as not taxed since its coming out from a tax free vehicle in the same year as it arrives in Thailand.

 

I suspect no one knows right now, but worth watching as further details emerge.

 

 

[spambot]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Sure, we've had to make some assumptions along the way which I think is only reasonable but there's also a large helping of fact that underpins that and it is growing every week. Reading the following link, may help, if you haven't already done so, That Q&A made life a lot easier. https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

This helps a lot - Your response to atpeaceb with a very good question - for previous years taxed income, but now in savings - It is unlikely to be taxed when remitted to Thailand after 31st Dec 2023.

 

Therefore any such saving pot that has been held by a retiree outside the country can be regarded as a potential buffer against tax.

[Ben Zioner]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:50 PM, oldestswinger said:

For what it's worth, about a week ago I went to my local tax office in Bangkok and told them that I wanted to apply for a tax identification number (TIN).

They asked if I had any income arising in Thailand. I replied that I did not and lived on my pension from the UK.

They said that I therefore did not need a TIN and would not issue one.

I said that I understood that from 1st Jan foreigners would be liable for tax on money brought in from abroad. They said that they had no information on this and wished me a good day.

Good story though. Methinks it is a plot to catch you out next year..

[spambot]

2 hours ago, atpeace said:

If this ends up being how taxes on pre 2024 income is treated then I would think many retirees have nothing to worry about at least for the next 5-10 years.  For example if you have 400k US dollars in savings prior to 2024 and transfer 25k each year, disregarding inflation, you are cool for 16 years.

 

I'm a US citizen and FACTA is a mutual agreement that requires foreign banks to provide account balances as well as other info.  Here is KrungThai's FACTA link - https://krungthai.com/en/content/about-ktb/corporate-governance/fatca#:~:text=FATCA requires foreign financial institutions,and US-Owned Foreign Entity. .   

 

I've read many of your posts on this subject and appreciate all the personal effort you have put into providing factual info.  I'm still uncomfortable a little with what will be implemented because I sense even you are only guessing on the outcome.  If pre 2024 earned income can be brought to Thailand without having to mess with current investment earning, I'm as happy as a clam.

Excellent post identifying a valuable consideration - Saving prior to 2024 can (might) be used as a buffer against possible tax on remitted funds.

[spambot]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

The basic principle is that everyone pays tax somewhere so as long as you've done that and you try to import funds into Thailand where tax has already been paid  in the home country, Thailand is unlikely to make any  further tax demand on you. That said, there will almost certainly be examples where the difference in the tax rates between the two countries, COULD lead to additional tax being due here but for the most part, those will be anomalies. 

 

The target for this tax rule is people who invest offshore and repatriate their earnings without paying tax anywhere. Another group is those who work here online and because they are remote workers, get paid in Thailand but are untaxed....and similar. Everyday people with savings and a home and a few investments, are not the target and are not going to be of interest to the RD. 

Excellent response for clarification - Thank you.

[spambot]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

Not sure where on all these threads to jump in on -- but maybe here's ok.

 

Early in this drill we saw where Thai RD said, "have a DTA and show a tax return from home country -- and you're home free from Thai taxation." I think their original thinking is still in place.

 

Why? Because of the simplicity, and thus no new hires and expenses to deal with tax credits against Thai taxation, whatever. So, if you can show a tax return from your home country -- which has a DTA with Thailand (or maybe even not, as it really doesn't factor in) -- that's it. Show it to Immigration for your annual extension. They don't need to go through the numbers -- that would be nonsensical -- they just need to see a home country tax return, even it it doesn't indicate any taxes being paid (because standard deduction exceeds gross income, etc). Not that they would even notice, nor need to.

 

But, what if you have no home country tax return, because you're one of those lucky ones who haven't had to pay any taxes, to anyone, since retiring here in Thailand? Well, now, without a home country tax return to show, you now have to show a Thai tax return. And this tax return, if you've been honest, may just show taxes owed and paid. Or maybe not -- Immigration won't care -- they're just interested in the fact that you can produce a Thai tax return, in the absence of a home country tax return. Just another requirement, on top of a bank statement, TM30, whatever. No real additional cost to Immigration's overhead -- just the need to produce either a home country tax return, or a Thai tax return -- one more block for Immigration to check.

 

Anyway, seems logical to me. For those of us paying home country taxes, I guess (as a Yank), I'll just need to flash my 1040 return to Immigration. No home country tax return? -- well, best learn how to file a Thai tax return -- and welcome to the world of having to pay someone taxes. Fair is fair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good info and this makes sense - "they just need to see a home country tax return, even it it doesn't indicate any taxes being paid (because standard deduction exceeds gross income, etc)"

[Ben Zioner]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:16 AM, mikebell said:

I am a retired teacher of 39 years experience. Just before I turned 60 I tried to retire & draw my pension.  I was told I would lose 5% per year on every year before my 60th birthday.  I clung on for another 2 years.

Fair enough, average retirement year in EU/US is now in the 65-67 range, which gives another 12 years of life expectancy, so retiring at 60 makes you privileged. Even though active teaching when over 60 might be daunting.

[Neeranam]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:51 AM, Bobthegimp said:

The article is worth a read.

 

Their take is that this is a "tax the poor" scheme, whereby people can give gifts up to 20 million baht to their spouse or be here on a Long Term Resident's Visa and pay zero tax.  They claim that dual tax agreements might provide "some" relief for pensioners, where most tax treaties strictly forbid dual taxation of pensions.  

 

We'll see. 

The Thai government are after very rich Thais NOT foreign pensioners taking in already taxed pensions.

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

As for the first point, hardly anyone does pay tax here, that's the big problem! But it's almost certainly not because of Gift Tax.

 

If you look at the link below and read the para, "Assessible (Taxable) Gift Income" and scroll down to part that reads, "for a  gift received by...a spouse", the rules state that up to 20 mill. is tax free. If not a spouse etc, it's 10 mill.

 

One of us appears to be missing something here on this point, I hope it isn't me. So if you can tell me where you think what I have said above is incorrect, please do.

 

https://sherrings.com/gift-tax-law-in-thailand.html#:~:text=tradition or custom-,Subject to tax on the amount of the gift received,baht in a tax year.&text=Exemption from tax as per the rules specified by Ministerial Regulation.&text=an adopted child)-,On the amount of the gift received in excess of,transfer of the immovable property. 

And then there is a 5 / 10 % tax option if extra generous.

 

Cash gifts into the UK don't seem to be a problem, only any interest generated is taxable, so should not be a problem?

[gamb00ler]

On 2/10/2024 at 10:44 AM, retarius said:

Thank you for this. I have a 401K account in the US into which untaxed funds went during my working life. It is really deferred income, and so the US taxes any distributions you take. Up to age 70 you can opt not too take any distributions. As I understand it (and I may be wrong), under the US DTA, you can opt to pay the tax in either jurisdiction, Thailand or US. So I suppose the challenge is then, where do you want your tax dollars to go? Here to build roads and schools (and supply all those whose noses are trough) or in the US where I get zero benefit, and where they spend too much money, imho, warmongering. My choice boils down to supporting endless war or endless corruption.

As a US taxpayer the way I think about the changed Thai tax interpretation is like this:

• all the funds in my possession at 11:59:59 of Dec. 31,2023 are defined to be non assessable savings in the eyes of the Thai RD.
• as of 01/01/2024 all interest/dividends/capital gains arising from those savings would now be assessable if subsequently brought into Thailand in my name 
• non of the special accounts such as 401k, IRA, Roth, etc will have any special status in the eyes of the Thai RD so all post 2023 income from the funds in these accounts is assessable if subsequently brought into Thailand in my name 

My accounting strategy will be to move all income after 01/01/2024 from non tax-advantaged accounts to new separate accounts that will contain only funds that the Thai RD may consider assessable.  The balances in my original accounts will remain 100% non assessable.

 

Things are more complicated for the special tax-advantaged accounts because transfers are much more cumbersome than for regular accounts.  I may just keep all my subsequent year end statements from these accounts and keep track of the balance that is assessable.  Any amounts withdrawn from these accounts will be designated as first-in first-out so that the assessable funds will be the last withdrawn.

 

If I die suddenly without sufficiently educating my heirs about what is and what isn't assessable..... at least those left behind can just spend it all and claim plausible deniability.  In reality I would assume upon my death all my potentially assessable (but foreign held) funds would become non-assessable.

 

I was thinking that for 2024 and later, potentially assessable funds held outside Thailand behave much like a pre-tax retirement account.  I will defer subjecting those funds to Thai tax by not remitting them until after I have spent as much of the non assessable funds as is practical.  That way I can continue to invest the portion that may ultimately end up in the Thai government coffers.

[UKresonant]

9 hours ago, stix40 said:

Just asking the question about gifting 

How does it work ?

If it's a legitimate way of minimising tax.

Not keen on pay tax multiple times are You !

If the gift value was created whilst you were not Tax resident in Thailand, can't see them being an  issue, but from now on, if you create the funds to be gifted overseas, whilst you are Thai Tax Resident, they may require to be considered as taxable before, the recipient receives them, as normal remittance to yourself. 

They could be funds from an inheritance, which would probably not flag an issue under 100 million baht. (with very accurate, and certified paperwork).

 

Take this as a suspicion only, I cannot verify it currently, as my UK lottery ticket returns have been dire recently.🙂

 

 

[UKresonant]

2 hours ago, spambot said:

Mnnn - Actually you bring up a good point about ISA's - That is, if tax protected vehicles in the UK will be respected.

 

Most of the funds deposited into an ISA would be from earnings and would have been subject to Tax prior to deposit and If rather than used for making an ISA deposit the funds had been sent into Thailand, normally this would be DTA protected, hence unlikely to be Taxed in Thailand. However if in the tax year when funds are taken out of the ISA they are then remitted as resident in Thailand - Will the Tax free vehicle change the taxable status of the initial deposits which  have already been taxed.

 

For example, for taxed income deposits of £100K in an ISA with an increase of say £5K tax free inside the ISA, then £20k is withdrawn, transferred out when resident in Thailand - Will this be treated as mixture of taxed/untaxed or will all  withdrawn funds be considered as not taxed since its coming out from a tax free vehicle in the same year as it arrives in Thailand.

 

I suspect no one knows right now, but worth watching as further details emerge.

 

 

 

Some thinking out loud...

 

I expect no DTA effect at all. I would prioritise your tax residency status, of when the funds were placed into the ISA.

 

I think I would try not to remit ISA proceeds to Thailand. and have now associated an ISA to a totally different bank, to which my pre-taxed pensions are paid to in the UK. I would expect the state pension to go where my ISA goes to if / when I eventually get it as not taxed at source.

 

I think the only way to be reasonably safe, is to avoid any input to that ISA after 31st December of the year before you to become / became tax resident in Thailand, if an event does not decided your timing in lieu of any plan. Then at least that valuation point the capital value is excluded from Thai Tax, as created when not Thai Tax Resident.

 

You still have an opportunity you start another ISA the April  before the year you move to Thailand and can still deposit to that one in the UK tax year of the move. There may be multiple resident non- resident swings!

 

(If it is a Stocks and  Shares ISA it could be a churning of the funds whilst still UK Tax resident to give more recent base value points could be a goer, if you think you may later have to withdraw and remit to Thailand)

 

A corporate action could initiate a disposal scenario within the tax free wrapper, and an associated gain.

 

I would ignore events within the tax Free Wrapper in the UK, but dividends being paid out perhaps can't excepting they will be all trailed to UK expenditure, so not a remit to Thailand issue, unless a force Majeure arises.

 

Unfortunately I understand the ISA wrapper will have zero recognition in Thailand.

 

All phrased from my Non-Thai Tax resident current status view point! The UK is my centre of vital interest (DTA speak), having only one very special interest present in Thailand currently.

 

Will wait and see for further info......

 

 

 

 

[UKresonant]

7 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

And even then I don't see how it can work. The money I'd gift my wife would have to be remitted first and therefore get taxes as my income. In fact, I don't see who is exempt the gifter, the giftee, both? Maybe worth developing a bit here, with care.

a. If the funds were created (and subject to tax scrutiny overseas) when not Thai Tax Resident or the are excluded, probably will work splendidly. 

b. If from (overseas) funds created whilst Thai Tax resident and have not been considered against Thai tax, I don't see how it can work either (going forward).

[UKresonant]

6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

That is the big question currently. I believe it is a case of the overseas funds having been subject to the overseas tax process rather than actual tax having been paid on every pound or baht that is remitted. But the RD need to confirm this is the case and that they will allow the UK PA.

I would speculate that;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Uk Article 24  (others similar)

(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected.

 

*so =you  get the Thai PA & deduction? no UK PA affect at the Thai end.

 

(4) Nothing contained in this Article shall be construed as obliging either Contracting State to grant to individuals not resident in that State any of the personal allowances, reliefs and reductions for tax purposes which are granted to individuals so resident

 

**You retain the UK PA, at the UK end, if;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

UK Personal Allowances for non-residents
Some of the UK’s double taxation treaties provide for personal allowances to certain categories of individuals (for example, nationals of the other territory who are resident in that territory).
In addition to the provisions of any double taxation treaty, if you are not resident in the UK you may use form R43 to claim the same UK tax allowances as a UK resident if, at any time in the tax year you meet any of the following conditions:
a. You are a British citizen or a national of another member state of the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA member states are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and United Kingdom.
b. You are resident in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.
c. You have previously resided in the United Kingdom and are resident abroad for the sake of
 your health, or
 the health of a member of your family who is resident with you.
d. You are or have been employed in the service of the British Crown.
e. You are employed in the service of any territory under Her Majesty's protection.
f. You are employed in the service of a missionary society.
g. You are a widow, widower or surviving civil partner whose late husband, wife or civil partner was employed in the service of the British Crown.

 

Hope that makes sense?

 

Raises another Question

So does the wife get the UK personal allowance, if I pop-my clogs and I have a civil service pension, from which she would receive a widows pension (g.).

 

Time for an English breakfast tea, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scouse123]

I won't be signing up for any LTR or any other poor value for money scheme, nor offers from the Thai government, including their poor return bonds.

 

The income tax, I will just do the wait and see approach, I am in no rush as it appears nor is the Thai government, as they have failed to expand on anything since the announcement.

 

Whatever, It's the beginning of 2024, so anything possibly due, won't be until 2025, and I see no reason for a stampede to accountants, who will try to scare us to death to use their services, nor will I join the chorus of ' I'm leaving, that is the final straw ' brigade, who are, like me, are not in possession of the facts nor implications at this stage.

 

A question for the ' experts ' though, if these rules come to pass, what about all those importing large amounts of funds to purchase condominiums and businesses?

 

Surely, one would think that the government will be shooting themselves in the foot?

 

A friend of mine, who is a long term resident and former UK tax inspector, seems to be of the opinion that this was initially aimed at people who are wealthy, such as Thais, avoiding tax and also aimed at those in the cryptocurrency industries, those working remotely in the Far East with online businesses and those involved in large stocks and share transfers.

 

 It's possible retirees are at the moment, until clarification, getting swept up with the sandstorm.

 

I moved monies a long time ago, but I still do such things as new cars and trucks etc, however, I will closely monitor expenditure in this country until I know the full implications.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, UKresonant said:

I would speculate that;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Uk Article 24  (others similar)

(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected.

 

*so =you  get the Thai PA & deduction? no UK PA affect at the Thai end.

 

(4) Nothing contained in this Article shall be construed as obliging either Contracting State to grant to individuals not resident in that State any of the personal allowances, reliefs and reductions for tax purposes which are granted to individuals so resident

 

**You retain the UK PA, at the UK end, if;-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

UK Personal Allowances for non-residents
Some of the UK’s double taxation treaties provide for personal allowances to certain categories of individuals (for example, nationals of the other territory who are resident in that territory).
In addition to the provisions of any double taxation treaty, if you are not resident in the UK you may use form R43 to claim the same UK tax allowances as a UK resident if, at any time in the tax year you meet any of the following conditions:
a. You are a British citizen or a national of another member state of the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA member states are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and United Kingdom.
b. You are resident in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.
c. You have previously resided in the United Kingdom and are resident abroad for the sake of
 your health, or
 the health of a member of your family who is resident with you.
d. You are or have been employed in the service of the British Crown.
e. You are employed in the service of any territory under Her Majesty's protection.
f. You are employed in the service of a missionary society.
g. You are a widow, widower or surviving civil partner whose late husband, wife or civil partner was employed in the service of the British Crown.

 

Hope that makes sense?

 

Raises another Question

So does the wife get the UK personal allowance, if I pop-my clogs and I have a civil service pension, from which she would receive a widows pension (g.).

 

Time for an English breakfast tea, 

 

I think that this type of interpretation is way beyond our remit and the scope of our work, it's fun and interesting to theorise but we need to be very careful in case such speculation is taken as fact by some people. I think we simply recognise this is in the "far too difficult" camp and place it on the list of unknows/unclears at the end of the document, which is what I've done.

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

I won't be signing up for any LTR or any other poor value for money scheme, nor offers from the Thai government, including their poor return bonds.

 

The income tax, I will just do the wait and see approach, I am in no rush as it appears nor is the Thai government, as they have failed to expand on anything since the announcement.

 

Whatever, It's the beginning of 2024, so anything possibly due, won't be until 2025, and I see no reason for a stampede to accountants, who will try to scare us to death to use their services, nor will I join the chorus of ' I'm leaving, that is the final straw ' brigade, who are, like me, are not in possession of the facts nor implications at this stage.

 

A question for the ' experts ' though, if these rules come to pass, what about all those importing large amounts of funds to purchase condominiums and businesses?

 

Surely, one would think that the government will be shooting themselves in the foot?

 

A friend of mine, who is a long term resident and former UK tax inspector, seems to be of the opinion that this was initially aimed at people who are wealthy, such as Thais, avoiding tax and also aimed at those in the cryptocurrency industries, those working remotely in the Far East with online businesses and those involved in large stocks and share transfers.

 

 It's possible retirees are at the moment, until clarification, getting swept up with the sandstorm.

 

I moved monies a long time ago, but I still do such things as new cars and trucks etc, however, I will closely monitor expenditure in this country until I know the full implications.

A fair and balanced post that is accurate and which I mostly agree with.

 

I think your friend is absolutely correct, many people in these threads ignore that fact.

 

I have said repeatedly that I don't believe the government would deliberately harm the Thai property sector, there will not be a financial penalty for importing funds to buy property here. I don't know at this stage how it will work in  practise but there will not be additional tax to pay on those funds.

 

Lastly, I think the government is slowly making matters more clear via the tax consultancies who appear to be drip feeding information via Q&A sessions that they publish. That makes sense and of course by not making direct announcements, leaves them able to back track later, should they change their mind on any aspect.