Despite U.S. pressure, the idea of a Palestinian state seems farther away than ever

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The video above only mentions Kamala Harris calling for more aid and a ceasefire, the full speech is below and includes:

 

"Hamas claims it wants a ceasefire, well there is a deal on the table and as we have said, Hamas needs to agree to that deal. Lets get a ceasefire, lets reunite the hostages with their families and lets provide immediate relief to the people of Gaza."

 

Or like Biden said, its in Hamas hands now.

 

 

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

The video above only mentions Kamala Harris calling for more aid and a ceasefire, the full speech is below and includes:

 

"Hamas claims it wants a ceasefire, well there is a deal on the table and as we have said, Hamas needs to agree to that deal. Lets get a ceasefire, lets reunite the hostages with their families and lets provide immediate relief to the people of Gaza."

 

Or like Biden said, its in Hamas hands now.

 

 

Yes, It's in Hamas' hands now. I suspect they will come back with a counteroffer which will be something like:

- a release of ALL hostages and an exchange of prisoners;
- a PERMANENT ceasefire;
- a UN peacekeeping force on site to enforce the agreement;
- a beginning of negotiations on a two-state solution.

All to be enacted before the begining of the Taylor Swift concert in Nanterre, France or Ramadan, depending on the calendar you go by.

[Bkk Brian]

27 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, It's in Hamas' hands now. I suspect they will come back with a counteroffer which will be something like:

- a release of ALL hostages and an exchange of prisoners;
- a PERMANENT ceasefire;
- a UN peacekeeping force on site to enforce the agreement;
- a beginning of negotiations on a two-state solution.

All to be enacted before the begining of the Taylor Swift concert in Nanterre, France or Ramadan, depending on the calendar you go by.

You really shouldn't have put that prediction online, you cant get away from it now....lol. Bit like those who occasionally let their veil slip and show their true colours. Its too late. Its online in a post for all to see. 

 

Just jesting....:-)

 

Seriously however, the deal has already been etched for a 6 week temp ceasefire as a first stage with the hope that would be extended to a further ceasefire with new talks but those new talks would not happen till the first stage has happened. 

 

The first stage is for 40 hostages to be released, which should include all remaining women and some of the other elderly, I think the exchange includes around 400 Palestinian prisoners many of those to be the more hard core convicted ones. 

 

So to what is in Hamas's hands. Israel and the US want a hostage list from them to reveal who is still alive and which ones will be released. Obviously in light of the UN report on the sexual abuse of the hostages in Gaza getting the women out first is even more important now.

 

Hamas official says group doesn’t know which hostages are alive, or where they are

A Hamas official explained to the BBC on Sunday why the terror group didn’t accede to the Israeli demand to provide the number of hostages still alive: it doesn’t know itself.

“Practically it is impossible to know who is still alive because of the Israeli bombardment and blockage. They are in different areas with different groups,” according to Basem Naim, a member of Hamas’s political wing, who spoke with the BBC‘s London-based “Newshour” program from Istanbul.

Qatar told Israel on Sunday that ceasefire talks will not be able to advance after Hamas failed to give Israel the number of living captives, which Israel said was a requirement to move forward with a ceasefire agreement.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-official-says-group-doesnt-know-which-hostages-are-alive-or-where-they-are-b45o0ej9

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

You really shouldn't have put that prediction online, you cant get away from it now....lol. Bit like those who occasionally let their veil slip and show their true colours. Its too late. Its online in a post for all to see. 

 

Just jesting....:-)

 

Seriously however, the deal has already been etched for a 6 week temp ceasefire as a first stage with the hope that would be extended to a further ceasefire with new talks but those new talks would not happen till the first stage has happened. 

 

The first stage is for 40 hostages to be released, which should include all remaining women and some of the other elderly, I think the exchange includes around 400 Palestinian prisoners many of those to be the more hard core convicted ones. 

 

So to what is in Hamas's hands. Israel and the US want a hostage list from them to reveal who is still alive and which ones will be released. Obviously in light of the UN report on the sexual abuse of the hostages in Gaza getting the women out first is even more important now.

 

Hamas official says group doesn’t know which hostages are alive, or where they are

A Hamas official explained to the BBC on Sunday why the terror group didn’t accede to the Israeli demand to provide the number of hostages still alive: it doesn’t know itself.

“Practically it is impossible to know who is still alive because of the Israeli bombardment and blockage. They are in different areas with different groups,” according to Basem Naim, a member of Hamas’s political wing, who spoke with the BBC‘s London-based “Newshour” program from Istanbul.

Qatar told Israel on Sunday that ceasefire talks will not be able to advance after Hamas failed to give Israel the number of living captives, which Israel said was a requirement to move forward with a ceasefire agreement.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-official-says-group-doesnt-know-which-hostages-are-alive-or-where-they-are-b45o0ej9

Yes, I've heard about the proposed ceasefire on CNN. The proposal is as you say above, and Hamas' inability or unwillingness to give Israel more information about the hostages is the sticking point right now, or so it has been reported. Hopefully, this can be worked out, and a six-week ceasefire will commence on the start date of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour first concert in France.

I hope that during those six weeks, more talks can produce a subsequent, more permanent ceasefire agreement that will include the return of all hostages and, as I keep saying, talks on a two-state solution.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I've heard about the proposed ceasefire on CNN. The proposal is as you say above, and Hamas' inability or unwillingness to give Israel more information about the hostages is the sticking point right now, or so it has been reported. Hopefully, this can be worked out, and a six-week ceasefire will commence on the start date of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour first concert in France.

I hope that during those six weeks, more talks can produce a subsequent, more permanent ceasefire agreement that will include the return of all hostages and, as I keep saying, talks on a two-state solution.

I doubt Israelis are going to agree to rewarding a Palestinian state based on the October 7 barbarism. Palestinians already know they can milk hostages. 

For any hope of that Hamas will need to be completely out of the picture.

Doesn't seem likely.

[WDSmart]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I doubt Israelis are going to agree to rewarding a Palestinian state based on the October 7 barbarism. Palestinians already know they can milk hostages. 

For any hope of that Hamas will need to be completely out of the picture.

Doesn't seem likely.

I also think the Oct 7 attack was "barbarism," but such attacks and raids, although smaller, have been conducted by both sides for at least the last 75 years. And, yes, Hamas will "milk" their hostages because that, right now, is their most valuable bargaining chip. Israel's most valuable chip is its military might.

I, too, would like to see Hamas "out of the picture." I would like to see the Zionist faction in Israel "out of the picture" also. Unfortunately, right now, both sides are led by these ultra-right-wing, nationalistic factions, and that doesn't bode well for any long-term agreement that would include a two-state solution.

But, for now, we'll have to wait and see what happens with this current proposal, which involves a trade of 40 or so hostages for 400 prisoners Israel has and a six-week ceasefire. We shouldn't have to wait too long to find out if this will happen since Israel has said it must be agreed to before the next Taylor Swift Eras Tour concert in France, or they will start a ground invasion of Gaza.

[Yellowtail]

Well, Israel accepted the US & Quatar brokered ceasefire, but Hamas has refused. 

[WDSmart]

50 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, Israel accepted the US & Quatar brokered ceasefire, but Hamas has refused. 

The last report I saw on CNN said Hamas did respond with a counterproposal and is now waiting for a response. Here is a link to another source that gives more details on the counterproposal.
 

US, Israel responsible for any ceasefire deal failure: Hamas - IRNA English

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

The last report I saw on CNN said Hamas did respond with a counterproposal and is now waiting for a response. Here is a link to another source that gives more details on the counterproposal.
 

US, Israel responsible for any ceasefire deal failure: Hamas - IRNA English

Do you think the US and Quatar brokered ceasefire was unreasonable?  If so why?

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I've heard about the proposed ceasefire on CNN. The proposal is as you say above, and Hamas' inability or unwillingness to give Israel more information about the hostages is the sticking point right now, or so it has been reported. Hopefully, this can be worked out, and a six-week ceasefire will commence on the start date of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour first concert in France.

I hope that during those six weeks, more talks can produce a subsequent, more permanent ceasefire agreement that will include the return of all hostages and, as I keep saying, talks on a two-state solution.

You seem to believe that netanyahu would agree to a ceasefire if the information was given. IMO he will only willingly agree to a ceasefire when the last Gazan is dead or dying. He has IMO proven that the fate of the hostages is not something he cares about, and just something to cover for his real intent.

If Gaza gave that info I'm sure he'd come up with something else. He proved he wasn't serious when he wouldn't let the israeli team negotiate.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, WDSmart said:

We shouldn't have to wait too long to find out if this will happen since Israel has said it must be agreed to before the next Taylor Swift Eras Tour concert in France, or they will start a ground invasion of Gaza.

Errr, they already invaded Gaza. Did you mean Rafa?

[WDSmart]

36 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you think the US and Quatar brokered ceasefire was unreasonable?  If so why?

No, I don't think it was unreasonable..., but this is a negotiation, and I realize Hamas may have concerns and other items they'd like to see addressed. But, the supposed deadline for an agreement is not until the start of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour concert in France, which is only three days away now.

Also, even though the deal offered was only for 30 or so hostages in exchange for 400 prisoners and a six-week ceasefire, as soon as Hamas releases hostages, they are gone. Israel can agree to a ceasefire but start operations again whenever they want. that will, IMO, mean Hamas will have to make sure that any FINAL release of ALL hostages will have to include a PERMANENT ceasefire that some third party, like the UN, enforces.

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Errr, they already invaded Gaza. Did you mean Rafa?

I've assumed Rafah is a city in the "state" of Gaza, so I just used "Gaza." But, yes, I agree, the Israelis are threatening a ground invasion of Rafah

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

The last report I saw on CNN said Hamas did respond with a counterproposal and is now waiting for a response. Here is a link to another source that gives more details on the counterproposal.
 

US, Israel responsible for any ceasefire deal failure: Hamas - IRNA English

You are kidding, no wonder they are quoting senior Hamas officials who are telling lies

 

IRNA is a government-funded and controlled under the Iranian Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. IRNA has been placed under scrutiny in the past for spreading misinformation about various different events, including COVID-19, Israel, and the attempted assassination of Iraqi PM Mustafa al-Kadhimi.[3] The organization's accuracy has been additionally questioned for citing The Onion, a satirical news website.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_News_Agency

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You seem to believe that netanyahu would agree to a ceasefire if the information was given. IMO he will only willingly agree to a ceasefire when the last Gazan is dead or dying. He has IMO proven that the fate of the hostages is not something he cares about, and just something to cover for his real intent.

If Gaza gave that info I'm sure he'd come up with something else. He proved he wasn't serious when he wouldn't let the israeli team negotiate.

Well, Israel accepted the US & Quatar brokered ceasefire, but Hamas has refused. 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, WDSmart said:

talks on a two-state solution.

Waste of time. They have been talking for decades and no result.

IMO it has to be either a signed deal for a two state agreement or nothing.

Israel has no intention of allowing the Palestinians a state, as they proved by their approval of more illegal houses in illegal settlements on illegally occupied Palestinian land. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68490034

Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

 

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You are kidding, no wonder they are quoting senior Hamas officials who are telling lies

 

IRNA is a government-funded and controlled under the Iranian Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance. IRNA has been placed under scrutiny in the past for spreading misinformation about various different events, including COVID-19, Israel, and the attempted assassination of Iraqi PM Mustafa al-Kadhimi.[3] The organization's accuracy has been additionally questioned for citing The Onion, a satirical news website.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_News_Agency

Okay, how about this one then? Israel-Hamas war: Agreement on ceasefire, release of hostages in Gaza edges closer | Newshub

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I don't think it was unreasonable..., but this is a negotiation, and I realize Hamas may have concerns and other items they'd like to see addressed. But, the supposed deadline for an agreement is not until the start of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour concert in France, which is only three days away now.

What might those other concerns be?

6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Also, even though the deal offered was only for 30 or so hostages in exchange for 400 prisoners and a six-week ceasefire, as soon as Hamas releases hostages, they are gone. Israel can agree to a ceasefire but start operations again whenever they want. that will, IMO, mean Hamas will have to make sure that any FINAL release of ALL hostages will have to include a PERMANENT ceasefire that some third party, like the UN, enforces.

It was only 30 of ~130 hostages for 400 prisoners yet you make excuses for Hamas' refusing the ceasefire. Why? 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, how about this one then? Israel-Hamas war: Agreement on ceasefire, release of hostages in Gaza edges closer | Newshub

That's just an update on the ceasefire which is already covered in this topic

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320768-progress-made-in-hostage-talks-after-us-presents-new-proposal-sources-say/page/3/#comment-18747369

 

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Waste of time. They have been talking for decades and no result.

IMO it has to be either a signed deal for a two state agreement or nothing.

Israel has no intention of allowing the Palestinians a state, as they proved by their approval of more illegal houses in illegal settlements on illegally occupied Palestinian land. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68490034

Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

 

I generally agree with you, but IMO, a two-state solution is the only solution that will even come close to creating an environment for a lasting "peace." I've said repeatedly that as long as the extreme, right-wing, nationalistic factions on both sides are in the leadership, this will be virtually impossible. However, if the Palestinians abandon Hamas and Israelis abandon the ZIonits, AND the UN and other third parties put pressure on them, just MAYBE a two-state solution can be negotiated. 

[WDSmart]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That's just an update on the ceasefire which is already covered in this topic

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320768-progress-made-in-hostage-talks-after-us-presents-new-proposal-sources-say/page/3/#comment-18747369

 

Okay, here's what I heard on CNN this morning:

Hamas has returned a counterproposal that eliminates the demand they release the 30 hostages' names before the ceasefire. That's the only condition I remember being reported, but I'm sure there are more.

My point is this is still a negotiation and still has about three days left before the "deadline.". 

I just found a CNN link... Hamas responds to ceasefire proposal but accuses Israel of ‘stalling’ (msn.com)

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Okay, here's what I heard on CNN this morning:

Hamas has returned a counterproposal that eliminates the demand they release the 30 hostages' names before the ceasefire. That's the only condition I remember being reported, but I'm sure there are more.

My point is this is still a negotiation and still has about three days left before the "deadline.". 

Hamas wants a ceasefire first and then says it will gather the information about which hostages are still alive. 

 

That's another of those delusional demands, nobody can believe Hamas. They are able to get numbers daily on deaths they can get the list of hostages still alive now, they do not need to wait for a ceasefire first. Its their way of scuppering the talks. Everyone knows that

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I generally agree with you, but IMO, a two-state solution is the only solution that will even come close to creating an environment for a lasting "peace." I've said repeatedly that as long as the extreme, right-wing, nationalistic factions on both sides are in the leadership, this will be virtually impossible. However, if the Palestinians abandon Hamas and Israelis abandon the ZIonits, AND the UN and other third parties put pressure on them, just MAYBE a two-state solution can be negotiated. 

You are correct of course, but israel has been and still is making it near to impossible to actually have a West Bank that could be come a state given the illegal settlements and their ongoing expansion. Of course it's ignored by the US, even as Biden and co spout the IMO lies about wanting a 2 state solution.

The only way to make a state out of the West Bank would be for every israeli to vacate their settlements and short of the US forcing them to do so, I give that a non starter.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, WDSmart said:

However, if the Palestinians abandon Hamas and Israelis abandon the ZIonits, AND the UN and other third parties put pressure on them, just MAYBE a two-state solution can be negotiated. 

Substitute the US for the UN and you might be right. The israelis have been ignoring anything not to their advantage coming out of the UN for decades.

IMO it will take a world wide anti apartheid style campaign to force israel to even contemplate a Palestinian state, plus a US president and congress that is not biased to israel.

[Yellowtail]

21 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, here's what I heard on CNN this morning:

Hamas has returned a counterproposal that eliminates the demand they release the 30 hostages' names before the ceasefire. That's the only condition I remember being reported, but I'm sure there are more.

My point is this is still a negotiation and still has about three days left before the "deadline.". 

I just found a CNN link... Hamas responds to ceasefire proposal but accuses Israel of ‘stalling’ (msn.com)

Why do you think providing the names would the names be a dealbreaker for them? 

[WDSmart]

8 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why do you think providing the names would the names be a dealbreaker for them? 

That's a good question, and, of course, I don't have the answer, but I do have three possibilities:

1. They might not be able to do that since some/many of the hostages are being held by factions that Hamas does not directly control. Compiling a list like that might be very difficult for them to do without a ceasefire to allow them better communication.
2. They might know that many of the supposed 130+ hostages are now dead, and that would be a very distressing thing to have to reveal to Israel and increase the value of the 30 hostages proposed in the ceasefire. By that, I mean if there were 130 hostages, releasing 30 would still give them 110 left. If they only had 60 live hostages, releasing 30 now would only give them 30 left.
3. They might not want to reveal all the hostages' names, ages, genders, etc., to prevent Israel from demanding the release of 30 specific hostages, like 30 women and children. Hamas might want to keep some hostages like these because they know they are valued more by Israel. 

That's the only three reasons I can think of...

[pegman]

"Despite US pressure"???? Under Biden there has been nothing but disaster after disaster for US foreign policy. Now the IDF is about to invade Rafah against the protests of the Biden administration. Bibi knows full well that Biden cannot do a thing about it without his top rank donors abandoning him and the Israel lobby media showing their wrath.